I love the look on Calvin’s face in the last panel. The look of pure joy for getting Hobbes all wound up. My husband likes to pick on me like that too and just sits there rolling in laughter when he gets a similar reaction.
“Jim Dandy to the Rescue” - LaVern Baker (1956)
In this case, it’s Damage Control to the Rescue.
LeslieAnne, do you love this strip because you are familiar with damage control?
You said “I’M A DINOSAUR!” You can’t be a fossil at age 25! Please eggsplain!
LeslieAnne,
If you have Calvin bite the dentist for you, the dentist might extract all Calvin’s teeth. Then he couldn’t bite the people in the museum. Have you gone, or are you going to the dentist? So am I!
Speaking of teeth, Calvin not only used the word evolution, he also imagined the sabre-toothed tiger ‘dokking’. His imagination knows no bounds. That’s like billdi and a few others who must have been present at the beginning of the universe “billions of years ago”. How else could they imagine that it’s a fact? As you said, “there is enough evidence to present reasonable doubt that the earth is millions and millions of years old”. We have our ‘faith’, and they have their ‘so-called faith’.
“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:” Hebrews 9:27 Loosely paraphrased, the verse means ‘It’ll all come out in the wash!’
“there is enough evidence to present reasonable doubt that the earth is millions and millions of years old”
No. Really, no. You may have read that on some faith pseudoscience website but that doesn’t make it true. Any more than glib mention of the Second Law of Thermodynamics has any bearing on whether evolution is possible. If you think that then presumably you also think your fridge requires divine intervention to work?
What you refuse to believe regardless of evidence is ‘faith pseudoscience’ to you.
Humans invented the fridge with the brain and mind God gave them. Could the mind, among numerous other things, evolve from eternal matter?
The ‘law of morpholysis’, or the ‘law of increasing entropy’ applies to the whole universe. It began when sin entered the world in the beginning through Adam (and Eve).
“For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now.” Romans 8:22
Continuing to present evidence to billdi and others of like ‘mind’ is a useless endeavor, but here is one excellent website. Check it out for yourself, if you will.
www.icr.org
“there is enough evidence to present reasonable doubt that the earth is millions and millions of years old”
Sorry, but I have to chime in on this comment also.
That may be one of the most ignorant statements I have heard, ever. And btw it is billions of years old not, just millions. As Grimma said, do you question that the computer you are using right now works? Science and the scientific method allowed us to make these wonderful machines (that we mostly take for granted), but when science tells you the Earth is ~4.5 billion and the Universe is ~14 Billion years old, you say, oh I don’t believe “that”.
FYI, one of the ways the age of the Universe can be calculated is that the echo of the big bang can still be heard.
When people dismiss science, or think of it as “bad” or “evil” because it conflicts with their religious doctrine, it is a sad day for rational thought.
Come on, people. Who are you going to believe? The wise goat and sheep herders that passed down verbal stories 4,000 years ago, or the ignorant, stupid people who gave us medicine, electronics, and put men on the moon?
having faith and quoting from the bible is not evidence – you are not presenting evidence; you are presenting your belief. the icr website simply proves that point.
thank you grimma and brad for your rational contributions.
Frankr,
I am saying I do not believe in evolution!
I think the universe is 6,000-10,000 years old.
There is much claimed evidence for both sides. We believe what makes the most sense to us, or what we must believe to avoid accepting the only alternative, which is repugnant to us.
BTW, although it might be possible to believe in both God (Christianity) and evolution, it is not rational. Why would a loving, kind and good God create a universe by a process which has billions of years of pain, suffering and death before humans appeared on the scene. Surely the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God could do it better than through evolution. I believe pain suffering and death came through the fall (original sin) of mankind through Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, as I indicated earlier. The original creation was ‘very good’.
Yup, the law of increasing entropy applies to the WHOLE universe. Which is a closed system. Unlike a biological system which takes an input of energy to work. Or a fridge - did you not understand that simple example of thermodynamics?
That ICR website would be funnier than any strip, if it wasn’t so tragic. Was that really offered without any irony?
Whether there is an echo or not probably is moot, but I don’t believe in the Big Bang, so if there’s an echo, it must be from something else.
How could the greatest explosion ever conceived result in organization rather than chaos? Can you relate any explosion in the history of the human race that brought order instead of destruction?
BTW your carbon dating “facts” that say the earth is millions and millions of years old… said that Mount St helens eruption was somewhere around a half a million years old or so…
The second law of thermodynamics is an expression of the universal principle of decay observable in nature… Basically that things go from order to chaos… So if we are speaking of my fridge, it doesn’t go from a non functioning piece of metal to a fridge on it’s own, it’s the other way around. (I know simplistic but overall says the point)
I DID NOT WANT TO GET INTO THIS CONVERSATION as I mentioned yesterday! BUT I REFUSE TO LISTEN AND BACK DOWN when someone says that my beliefs are insane!!! Just because scientifically we disagree doesn’t mean I’m insane!!!
Actually, the big bang was pretty much complete chaos. With different forms of physics and certain properties acting very much different than they do now. But from chaos (over BILLIONS ON YEARS) things start to settle… something like a pond that was jumped in, tosses up mud, but eventually settles back to clear.
If you delve deeper into physics and science you realize that there is somewhat of a ‘singularity’ which relates us all as coming from ‘one’ thing… but not God as he is traditionally known. One piece of matter millions of miles away is affected by a piece of matter so close that it is right next to you, simultaneously.
Religion tried to invoke fear and make sense of what they could not make sense of. The bible has be re-written… there are too many religions to count… and the only true voice that there is your own… and what you are… a form of science!
The second law of thermodynamics is an expression of the universal principle of decay observable in nature… Basically that things go from order to chaos
Yes, in a closed system. Don’t quote thermodynamics if you don’t understand this simple point. Locally, order emerges out of chaos spontaneously every time a crystal forms. Sure, its at the cost of more chaos outside itself. Fridges get colder (more ordered) on the inside because the air outside gets hotter (less ordered) - that’s what the point of mentioning fridges was, evidently that point was too subtle.
So my fridge works because it gets hotter outside??? Well what happens If I put my fridge outside in the winter and it gets colder?? Does my fridge cease to work????
Realistically this is my last post on my beliefs versus yours. I’m not going to discuss this any further, because this isn’t the best place for it. Please just refrain from calling me insane? KK! Awesome! Thanks! Bye!
I think the comic was great ,my cat has a bit of Hobbes in him, like I will do what you say if it pleases me.
All the big churches around here and people have to use a comic strip to prove there worth WOW.
Puddleglum2… Yes I understand damage control very well… Only unfortunately I have to do damage control for other people that I work with… not necessarily myself…
Although I put my foot in my mouth on a regular basis! :D I just don’t try to fix that!
“I think the universe is 6,000-10,000 years old.
There is much claimed evidence for both sides.”
Show me the scientific evidence that supports your contention! You can’t because it does not exist.
As James Brown said, “I don’t know karate, but I know crazy.”
so ur telling me that dust and debris from the big bang that eventually formed stars and planets is order to chaos? because to me the big bang was chaos and the order came to form what we know now…
sure it will become chaos again… and then order…. and then chaos….
Redbear987,
Are you saying that you believe in evolution, and therefore God cannot exist (which is why confirmed atheists believe in evolution), or are you saying that a God can’t be the three omnis? Or is it something else?
Puddleglum: ” Why would a loving, kind and good God create a universe by a process which has billions of years of pain, suffering and death before humans appeared on the scene.”
Why does anyone assume that humans are the final step in the evolutionary process? No species lasts forever, and the way we are going we will join the long parade sooner than we probably should have, and we are going to take a lot of other species with us. What I like to consider is what species will fill our niche. Think about it.
To me the Big Bang is a perfect explanation of what happened when God spoke the universe into existence.
And on the subject of old, the other day a teen asked how old I was. When I told him, he said with a grin, “Wow, you were around before the Dead Sea even got sick!”
Doesn’t matter where your fridge is. It gets cold on the inside at the expense of its surroundings getting hotter than they would have been otherwise. This is not a belief, its high school science.
cavalcade,
I say no to your first question. The so-called Big Bang WAS chaos, and supposedly order came from it. Order from chaos seems impossible to me. That’s what I was saying.
Your bottom line is convenient for you and others to believe, but there’s no conclusive or firm evidence for it. It’s conjecture.
It looks as if the Big Bang has broken out on this website, but this is definitely an open system.
“Round and round she goes, and where she stops, nobody knows”, except God and anyone to whom he reveals it.
billdi,
I think the Bible is the best evidence since it’s God’s Word, but if you don’t believe it, you will deny the evidence.
I agree with LeslieAnne that this is not the place for so much extended, if not interminable discussion. With so many theories, speculations, suppositions, and assumptions, there’s no way to resolve all the issues until the Lord Jesus Christ returns in glory, and creates order out of this chaotic world which would destroy itself through man’s inability to rule himself were it not for God’s ultimate intervention.
Doesn’t someone (a god) have to MAKE a saturated solution to grow a crystal? That’s intelligent input, isn’t it? And a ‘made saturated solution’ doesn’t sound like chaos to me.
“Reshpeckobiggle,” said Puddleglum.
GrimmaTheNome said,
“It could be said, if the person saying it was either wilfully ignorant or a liar. There’s shedloads of evidence supporting the theory of evolution.”
If there’s so much evidence for evolution, why didn’t you give us any examples?
esconopeles65,
Since nothing ever has been proven to evolve from one ‘kind’ to another (macroevolution), why assume that humans will evolve to a higher kind. There’s no ‘missing link’; all the links are missing! Besides, what if humans became extinct (destroyed each other and the world) before they evolved into a higher form.
“The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord’s: but the earth has he given to the children of men.” - Psalms 115:16
Humans are the center of God’s attention in the universe, that we might bring glory to him who alone is worthy.
Evidence for evolution? Coming right up. The following video in four minutes fairly brilliantly demonstrates that either evolution is true, or God is an idiot engineer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO1a1Ek-HD0
In short, a Giraffe’s laryngeal nerve goes all the way down the neck, around the heart, and back up almost to the same spot. It’s completely understandable in the context of evolution.
Of course, antibiotic resistance already demonstrates evolution, but I already know religious people won’t accept that.
actually evolution is no longer a theory – it has never been dis-proven by the scientific community, but rather has been confirmed repeatedly as the best and most rational explanation for how life emerged and evolved on this planet. the bible is many things, but it is not a scientific document that refutes evolution in any logical way.
billdi said,
“actually evolution is no longer a theory – it has never been dis-proven by the scientific community, but rather has been confirmed repeatedly as the best and most rational explanation for how life emerged and evolved on this planet.”
The prescient lawyer in Calvin comes to his rescue lest he become cat food in re Hobbes. Entropy and evolution are diametrically opposed logically speaking. One implies decrease, the other increase. Of the two , entropy is a law, evolution a theory. Irespective of what you call it, it is clear that the universe and all of its materiality STARTED. It has not been what it is eternally, nor will it be so in light of the law of entropy.
Nairebis, there is a great big huge difference between micro evolution (antibiotic resistance is micro evolution which can be scientifically observed) and macro evolution (the evolving of one species from another, which has never been scientifically observed).
Furthermore, engineering designers are prone to retain an original design in subsequent projects when it has worked successfully. No need to reinvent the wheel to design a semi.
And who knows, maybe the nerve path is for redundancy. Nature is rift will dual organs.
Thank God there is no more pain, suffering, and death in this current created world.
The only thing that is, is existence itself. It always was and it always will be. It’s completely incompehensible, so a creator had to be created to create it.
Actually, if you are gonna gripe or get into big huffs about what Calvin said, why not gripe about using “Tiger” of the Smilidon (Saber-tooth)? They were not more closely related to tigers than to any other living cats, which is why most biologists today use “Saber Tooth Cats”. (And it’s not an ancestor, more a cousin, or perhaps an uncle/aunt.)
OK the scientist said to God, I can create a human being. God said ok go ahead. The scientist said give me some dirt. God said make your own. People respect each other regardless of what we believe.
My own take on evolution and deep time (the 4.54 billion years of the earth, or 13.75 ± 0.17 billion for the universe):
If God did create it so as to “look older”, it seems awfully close to lying. If it really is only a few thousand years old, why make it seem consistently many billions?
Why make our DNA so close to the other animals? Why use very similar FOX genes and other such “fundamental” mechanisms in us that are found in mammals, particularly the great apes?
It is possible to get a consistent world-view from seeing God as creating the world–but a world-view including evolution and other scientific theories* is much richer, requires less “ad hoc” intervention, and allows us to understand much more of how things work. In the end, that is the God I know–not just the creator who likes to make puzzles for us.
Still, there seems to be something special about humankind, not just a quantitative difference from other animals, but a qualitative difference. Very few other animals have discovered or produced comics, much less an internet to have philosophical/religious debates on them. Does this require a special creation–of the human soul? I think so, but as a person of faith, not one of science. (Scientifically speaking, there is not good evidence or need for the human soul.)
*”theory” in the scientific sense: as a hypothesis that has been tested and found (so far) consistent with the world. It is a working idea, but may be replaced by a more accurate or comprehensive theory, as Einstein’s Relativity replaced Newton’s Mechanics.
Well, if you don’t like giraffes, we could always talk about why Moles have vestigial, completely non-functional eyes. It’s completely understandable in the context of evolution. Using the god theory, it makes no sense.
We could also talk about the fact that in a mere 10K years, wolves were selected into animals from Chihuahuas to Great Danes to Sheep Dogs to Blood Hounds to Greyhounds. Sure, they were intelligently selected by humans, but it neatly demonstrates the fact that animals can dramatically change based on their environment.
The fact of evolution is as true as the fact that the Earth revolves around the sun.
ETA: I sympathize with people who hate when these discussions come up. But it’s important to fight ignorance and superstition. The minds of the religious won’t be changed, but it’s possible to protect and educate the next generation.
Nairebis - I must agree with you that I hate when these discussions come up, but it is important to fight ignorance. The minds of the non-religious won’t be changed, but it is possible to protect and educate the next generation.
For the record, I work with geologist and hydrogeologists, most of whom agree with the theory of evolution (and yes, it is a theory); however, there is emerging evidence that dating processes may be inaccurate and the world is in fact younger than previously believed. Since this is not a popular idea, just as many scientific ideas are not popular in their infancy (think: the world is round), this is not yet popular knowledge.
Another odd fact: In a lake in British Columbia, there is a freshwater stickleback fish. The ocean stickleback, the original form, has a pair of fins on its belly that are like spikes, and make the stickleback hard to eat. But the lake sticklebacks have lost those spikes on their bellies. Biologists have shown that the genetic cause for not having spikes is that there is a switch that was disabled.
But their findings may have implications far beyond sticklebacks. They are convinced that there is a link between the stickleback losing its spikes and other creatures, like a manatee, losing their legs. And they have two tantalizing clues.
One: the same body-plan gene that is responsible for the stickleback spikes also plays a role in the development of the hind limbs.
The second clue is more tentative. The lake stickleback may have lost its spikes, but evolution has left behind some tiny remnants: the traces of bones. And they are lopsided, bigger on the left than on the right. So David Kingsley and his team went looking in manatees, searching for this lopsided pattern. And they found it. In box after box of manatee skeletons they saw pelvic bones that were bigger on the left and smaller on the right.
It seems that the same mechanism that led the stickleback to quit having these lower spikes also led the manitee to lose its legs.
We at least know one aspect of Bill Watterson’s beliefs of science vs. religion as we view this story arc. The controversy is not surprising, and the one will never change the other’s mind. It is a fun read tho!
I have got to put my 2 cents in here! NOTHING is worse than people talking “a bit of science” who have such a limited knowledge of science AND throwing around scripture without having examined the original greek, latin, or hebrew is equally frustrating! A person who believes in God And chooses to believe in evolution is not at odds if he or she chooses to interpret it that way! As for NOT seeing the evidence of evolution well that is equal to the “blasphemy” of not accepting that the Earth orbits our Star every 365.25 days! And what!? Will you burn me at the stake also? Remember “Proclaiming themselves to be wise, they became fools” can work both ways! Be open minded and TRULY see the evidence and not some inaccurate translation that stated “6 days”!!!!
For those of you on the religious/anti scientific side of things, if you are curious why that drives us nuts, a quick explanation.
We can have mounds of evidence regarding a point, and you will say “it can’t be true, it doesn’t agree with the bible” no logical discussion, no rational thought, it doesn’t agree with some 2000+ year old book, so it must be wrong.
People ignoring obvious logic made (some) sense in the dark ages, but it is hard to believe it persists today.
By the way Puddleglum, if you want to see an explosion that results in order just look at our Star and the resulting energy transformations in photosynthesis and, I assume you consume plants, your growth and there you have it! Or do you eat mana every day?
I subscribe to this comic strip because I enjoy Calvin and Hobbes. Once in a while I take the time to read some of the comments. I agree that the creation/evolution discussions are somewhat out of place, but like several others mentioned, it’s hard to keep quiet. Here’s my two cents.
Evolution does not equal science. Questioning evolution does not equal questioning science. Science is a tool to investigate the world. Both evolution and creation are interpretations of the data we gather with that tool, interpretations based on philosophical assumptions. To say that I deny or reject science because I question evolution is to display ignorance of both the nature and history of science.
As far as thermodynamics, regardless of whether the system is open or closed, raw energy on its own will not automatically decrease entropy. Living things are able to decrease entropy in their system only because they make use of a program (genetic information) and a mechanism for storing and converting energy (e.g., photosynthesis in plants). How did the program and mechanism arise in the first place? Crystals are not an adequate analogy, since they are only repetitions of a simple pattern decreed by the laws of physics, without the specified complexity of living things. See http://www.trueorigin.org/steiger.asp
All of the changes mentioned in animals so far are examples of downhill or horizontal change, in terms of genetic information. Far from being contrary to the creation model, they are in fact an important part of it. The kind of change evolution needs is uphill change, which has never been observed to occur in nature.
I believe someone asked for evidence that the world is not billions of years old. You could start with Carbon 14 in diamonds. http://creation.com/diamonds-a-creationists-best-friend Have fun explaining that one! When you’re done, here are 101 more, to give you just a taste. http://creation.com/age-of-the-earth
As for the recurrent laryngeal nerve, that is actually a theological argument, not a scientific one. How do you know what an omniscience, omnipotent Designer would do or not do? Furthermore, it’s an argument from ignorance. Just because we don’t currently know of a good reason for it to be so does not mean there is no reason. Rather than stop doing science and say “that’s just how evolution did it,” we should keep looking until we find the reason. As it turns out, there are several possibilities, as discussed here. http://creation.com/recurrent-laryngeal-nerve
To close off, science and logic are not the exclusive domain of the irreligious. In fact, personal experience suggests that quite a few of them have misplaced these important tools, which is a pity, since it seems their only recourse is ridicule and bluff. Actually, though, I’ve read more rational posts on both sides under this comic strip than in many other more “sophisticated” places on the web. :)
Puddleglum, thank you!!! Though I LOVE Calvin and Hobbes, I was always disappointed in the references to evolution in this strip. You know what you’re talking about, and I’m glad someone brought it up.
It’s so nice to see the name calling and arguments involving a phrase in a comic strip. I’m sure that’s just what everyone is looking for when they take a look at the C & H comic. It’s a pitiful attempt to take a simple bit of humor and turn it into self-righteousness and arrogance. How about just letting it be a little bit of humor in an otherwise disturbed world. Is that too much to ask? Or better yet, how about forming your own blog site to argue religion…?
Would god not wonder at people reading comics,about toys talking,and giving advise to humans,his creation.
He wants you to read laws in the bible you moron.
lehutan,
Bravo! Your comments and links are expressedly apropos and timely! You answered most of the questions and accusations, and then some. I read much of the material from the links. I expect to read more. Unfortunately, most, if not all from the other side probably will not read much, if anything from the links.
I’m commending your contribution here because I do not wish to provoke any further discussion from others at this time.
Hm I’m always a bit surprised about the opposition to evolution in religious circles. Evolution is fairly well documented, so it’s as a real phenomenon as anyone can think of. This means that the a literal interpretation of the Bible’s history of Creation can’t be true, so God’s chroniclers got some of the details wrong. Big deal. That sort of thing happens all the time.
However if one assumes the existence of evolution this also means that evolution was one of the tools available for God when implementing the actual mechanisms of Creation. So if one admits that the chroniclers got it wrong then one opens up the possibility that God was even more clever than previously thought. Why can’t the religious people accept this type of thinking, and many of them obviously can’t? I can’t understand why :-)
My own thoughts on the matter is that since science describes the world as best we know it, but that explanation is incomplete. If God exists, then He must exist within the frame we paint with science. One possible place where He could actually be hiding is within quantum fluctuations :-) The equations describing the universe is currently quite simple and seems to be getting simpler as we learn more. However, most of the variation we see in the universe seems to be originating from the randomness inherent in quantum mechanics. Not explicitly described by the equations, but following the equations nonetheless. If God could manipulate that randomness in quantum systems, that would give Him more than enough freedom to influence the universe as only a deity should be able to without breaking a single law of physics.
How to construct a religion that incorporates this, and also allows for what is known about science to change (as it will), and has universal appeal for people who wish to use religious explanations in all manners of situations, that still remains a challenge :)
It’s not a matter of what God could have done, but what He said He did. God could have done anything He wanted to, but we’re not free to tinker with what He told us He did. Also, the Christian God, if He exists, is completely outside of our universe and not subject to the laws of nature nor the investigations of science. Why should we try to fit an omnipotent eternal spirit into our severely limited understanding of the natural world? It’s much easier to admit we don’t know quite as much as we like to think we do.
Anyway, I’ll try to keep out of these discussions on here. If anyone wants to discuss further, feel free to come on over to www.truthbelt.xanga.com and argue, discuss, disagree, and/or insult as much as you wish. :)
Yukoner over 13 years ago
Quick thinking Calvin.
pouncingtiger over 13 years ago
Hobbes looks like he’s going to make Calvin extinct.
margueritem over 13 years ago
Uh-oh, Calvin said ‘evolution’. Now we’re in for another round…
Dberrymanal1 over 13 years ago
At a boy Hobbes! Only you could put that little brat in his place!
rentier over 13 years ago
Saber toothed - sabber toothed - slobber toothed!
Dino-1 over 13 years ago
I love the look on Calvin’s face in the last panel. The look of pure joy for getting Hobbes all wound up. My husband likes to pick on me like that too and just sits there rolling in laughter when he gets a similar reaction.
tis4kis over 13 years ago
And the son of an ape quickly back pedals…
SWEETBILL over 13 years ago
Calvin, Don’t burn them all………………..
Nebulous Premium Member over 13 years ago
Cats know that they’re better than people because their ancestors used to eat our ancestors.
moronbis over 13 years ago
Calvin’s imagination is strong enough to hold him by his collar off the ground.
Hobbes seems to be too sentimental about his grandfather.
cdward over 13 years ago
Ah, the boy can learn.
Herocoder over 13 years ago
pinnacle eh.. I thought so too .. :D
rentier over 13 years ago
I can’t understand “dokked wike diff”. Can someone explain that to me, please?
florchi over 13 years ago
@LX013 I think he’s saying, “Talked like this.”
crobinson019 over 13 years ago
If he came from a galaxy far far away, would he be a light saber toothed tiger?
lewisbower over 13 years ago
When I drank, I said witty things like that.
Sandfan over 13 years ago
Tigers don’t seem to be fans of insult humor.
LeslieAnne over 13 years ago
I LOVE THIS STRIP!!! HAHAHAHAHA
nan.sens928 over 13 years ago
Smooth man..
emmaregina over 13 years ago
@Chris Robinson Good one. :-D
cleokaya over 13 years ago
Once again Calvin’s quick thinking saves him from extinction.
Puddleglum2 over 13 years ago
“Jim Dandy to the Rescue” - LaVern Baker (1956) In this case, it’s Damage Control to the Rescue. LeslieAnne, do you love this strip because you are familiar with damage control? You said “I’M A DINOSAUR!” You can’t be a fossil at age 25! Please eggsplain!
carless over 13 years ago
Hobbes is it my fault that captain Noah took regular tigers instead of saber-tooth on his old boat is it?
hancel over 13 years ago
Only problem, It was “Saber tooth Cat”. It wasn;t related to the tiger, Had to be a tiger in this instance though
Puddleglum2 over 13 years ago
LeslieAnne, If you have Calvin bite the dentist for you, the dentist might extract all Calvin’s teeth. Then he couldn’t bite the people in the museum. Have you gone, or are you going to the dentist? So am I! Speaking of teeth, Calvin not only used the word evolution, he also imagined the sabre-toothed tiger ‘dokking’. His imagination knows no bounds. That’s like billdi and a few others who must have been present at the beginning of the universe “billions of years ago”. How else could they imagine that it’s a fact? As you said, “there is enough evidence to present reasonable doubt that the earth is millions and millions of years old”. We have our ‘faith’, and they have their ‘so-called faith’. “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:” Hebrews 9:27 Loosely paraphrased, the verse means ‘It’ll all come out in the wash!’
billdi Premium Member over 13 years ago
what evidence?
Trainwreck_1 over 13 years ago
Wow! Even without those big teeth Hobbie’s put a fine enough point on this one didn’t he?
GrimmaTheNome over 13 years ago
“there is enough evidence to present reasonable doubt that the earth is millions and millions of years old”
No. Really, no. You may have read that on some faith pseudoscience website but that doesn’t make it true. Any more than glib mention of the Second Law of Thermodynamics has any bearing on whether evolution is possible. If you think that then presumably you also think your fridge requires divine intervention to work?
kab2rb over 13 years ago
Calvin is certainly having a grand old time for then dad. Dad you made it up to your son for all those camping trips Calvin didn’t like.
kingpirgnob over 13 years ago
it appears that hobbes only likes to dish out the jokes. but doesnt take them well
Puddleglum2 over 13 years ago
What you refuse to believe regardless of evidence is ‘faith pseudoscience’ to you. Humans invented the fridge with the brain and mind God gave them. Could the mind, among numerous other things, evolve from eternal matter? The ‘law of morpholysis’, or the ‘law of increasing entropy’ applies to the whole universe. It began when sin entered the world in the beginning through Adam (and Eve). “For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now.” Romans 8:22 Continuing to present evidence to billdi and others of like ‘mind’ is a useless endeavor, but here is one excellent website. Check it out for yourself, if you will. www.icr.org
brad1138 over 13 years ago
“there is enough evidence to present reasonable doubt that the earth is millions and millions of years old”
Sorry, but I have to chime in on this comment also.
That may be one of the most ignorant statements I have heard, ever. And btw it is billions of years old not, just millions. As Grimma said, do you question that the computer you are using right now works? Science and the scientific method allowed us to make these wonderful machines (that we mostly take for granted), but when science tells you the Earth is ~4.5 billion and the Universe is ~14 Billion years old, you say, oh I don’t believe “that”.
FYI, one of the ways the age of the Universe can be calculated is that the echo of the big bang can still be heard.
When people dismiss science, or think of it as “bad” or “evil” because it conflicts with their religious doctrine, it is a sad day for rational thought.
Frankr over 13 years ago
Puddleglum2:
1) Are you saying you don’t believe in evolution?
2) How old do you think the universe is?
Just asking…
Nairebis over 13 years ago
Come on, people. Who are you going to believe? The wise goat and sheep herders that passed down verbal stories 4,000 years ago, or the ignorant, stupid people who gave us medicine, electronics, and put men on the moon?
rogue53 over 13 years ago
You were correct Marg…. here we go again.
COWBOY7 over 13 years ago
Easy Calvin! He is your buddy.
billdi Premium Member over 13 years ago
having faith and quoting from the bible is not evidence – you are not presenting evidence; you are presenting your belief. the icr website simply proves that point.
thank you grimma and brad for your rational contributions.
shanonstrauss over 13 years ago
This is a comic strip. You guys are getting way too deep.
Puddleglum2 over 13 years ago
Frankr, I am saying I do not believe in evolution! I think the universe is 6,000-10,000 years old. There is much claimed evidence for both sides. We believe what makes the most sense to us, or what we must believe to avoid accepting the only alternative, which is repugnant to us. BTW, although it might be possible to believe in both God (Christianity) and evolution, it is not rational. Why would a loving, kind and good God create a universe by a process which has billions of years of pain, suffering and death before humans appeared on the scene. Surely the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God could do it better than through evolution. I believe pain suffering and death came through the fall (original sin) of mankind through Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, as I indicated earlier. The original creation was ‘very good’.
Redbear987 over 13 years ago
“Surely the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God could do it better ”
You have just voice some of my reasons for not believing in what you call God.
GrimmaTheNome over 13 years ago
Yup, the law of increasing entropy applies to the WHOLE universe. Which is a closed system. Unlike a biological system which takes an input of energy to work. Or a fridge - did you not understand that simple example of thermodynamics?
That ICR website would be funnier than any strip, if it wasn’t so tragic. Was that really offered without any irony?
rgcviper over 13 years ago
Dino-1 said, about 11 hours ago
I love the look on Calvin’s face in the last panel.
And I love the look on his face in the third panel, with his teeth out and his eyes all scrunched up. Classic …
Puddleglum2 over 13 years ago
Whether there is an echo or not probably is moot, but I don’t believe in the Big Bang, so if there’s an echo, it must be from something else. How could the greatest explosion ever conceived result in organization rather than chaos? Can you relate any explosion in the history of the human race that brought order instead of destruction?
GrimmaTheNome over 13 years ago
The Big Bang wasn’t anything like a bomb exploding.
And the organization is localised. You’re not looking at the whole system.
BTW, I was very fond of Puddleglum in the Silver Chair. Respectowiggle.
LeslieAnne over 13 years ago
BTW your carbon dating “facts” that say the earth is millions and millions of years old… said that Mount St helens eruption was somewhere around a half a million years old or so…
The second law of thermodynamics is an expression of the universal principle of decay observable in nature… Basically that things go from order to chaos… So if we are speaking of my fridge, it doesn’t go from a non functioning piece of metal to a fridge on it’s own, it’s the other way around. (I know simplistic but overall says the point)
I DID NOT WANT TO GET INTO THIS CONVERSATION as I mentioned yesterday! BUT I REFUSE TO LISTEN AND BACK DOWN when someone says that my beliefs are insane!!! Just because scientifically we disagree doesn’t mean I’m insane!!!
cwreenactor over 13 years ago
Never ever argue with a tiger.
cavalcade over 13 years ago
Actually, the big bang was pretty much complete chaos. With different forms of physics and certain properties acting very much different than they do now. But from chaos (over BILLIONS ON YEARS) things start to settle… something like a pond that was jumped in, tosses up mud, but eventually settles back to clear.
If you delve deeper into physics and science you realize that there is somewhat of a ‘singularity’ which relates us all as coming from ‘one’ thing… but not God as he is traditionally known. One piece of matter millions of miles away is affected by a piece of matter so close that it is right next to you, simultaneously.
Religion tried to invoke fear and make sense of what they could not make sense of. The bible has be re-written… there are too many religions to count… and the only true voice that there is your own… and what you are… a form of science!
GrimmaTheNome over 13 years ago
The second law of thermodynamics is an expression of the universal principle of decay observable in nature… Basically that things go from order to chaos
Yes, in a closed system. Don’t quote thermodynamics if you don’t understand this simple point. Locally, order emerges out of chaos spontaneously every time a crystal forms. Sure, its at the cost of more chaos outside itself. Fridges get colder (more ordered) on the inside because the air outside gets hotter (less ordered) - that’s what the point of mentioning fridges was, evidently that point was too subtle.
LeslieAnne over 13 years ago
So my fridge works because it gets hotter outside??? Well what happens If I put my fridge outside in the winter and it gets colder?? Does my fridge cease to work????
Realistically this is my last post on my beliefs versus yours. I’m not going to discuss this any further, because this isn’t the best place for it. Please just refrain from calling me insane? KK! Awesome! Thanks! Bye!
ratlum over 13 years ago
I think the comic was great ,my cat has a bit of Hobbes in him, like I will do what you say if it pleases me. All the big churches around here and people have to use a comic strip to prove there worth WOW.
LeslieAnne over 13 years ago
Puddleglum2… Yes I understand damage control very well… Only unfortunately I have to do damage control for other people that I work with… not necessarily myself… Although I put my foot in my mouth on a regular basis! :D I just don’t try to fix that!
billdi Premium Member over 13 years ago
“I think the universe is 6,000-10,000 years old. There is much claimed evidence for both sides.”
Show me the scientific evidence that supports your contention! You can’t because it does not exist. As James Brown said, “I don’t know karate, but I know crazy.”
cavalcade over 13 years ago
so ur telling me that dust and debris from the big bang that eventually formed stars and planets is order to chaos? because to me the big bang was chaos and the order came to form what we know now…
sure it will become chaos again… and then order…. and then chaos….
Puddleglum2 over 13 years ago
Redbear987, Are you saying that you believe in evolution, and therefore God cannot exist (which is why confirmed atheists believe in evolution), or are you saying that a God can’t be the three omnis? Or is it something else?
esconopeles65 over 13 years ago
Puddleglum: ” Why would a loving, kind and good God create a universe by a process which has billions of years of pain, suffering and death before humans appeared on the scene.”
Why does anyone assume that humans are the final step in the evolutionary process? No species lasts forever, and the way we are going we will join the long parade sooner than we probably should have, and we are going to take a lot of other species with us. What I like to consider is what species will fill our niche. Think about it.
dahawk over 13 years ago
To me the Big Bang is a perfect explanation of what happened when God spoke the universe into existence.
And on the subject of old, the other day a teen asked how old I was. When I told him, he said with a grin, “Wow, you were around before the Dead Sea even got sick!”
GrimmaTheNome over 13 years ago
Doesn’t matter where your fridge is. It gets cold on the inside at the expense of its surroundings getting hotter than they would have been otherwise. This is not a belief, its high school science.
Puddleglum2 over 13 years ago
cavalcade, I say no to your first question. The so-called Big Bang WAS chaos, and supposedly order came from it. Order from chaos seems impossible to me. That’s what I was saying. Your bottom line is convenient for you and others to believe, but there’s no conclusive or firm evidence for it. It’s conjecture.
rentier over 13 years ago
Florchi: Thanks for exlaination!
Puddleglum2 over 13 years ago
It looks as if the Big Bang has broken out on this website, but this is definitely an open system. “Round and round she goes, and where she stops, nobody knows”, except God and anyone to whom he reveals it. billdi, I think the Bible is the best evidence since it’s God’s Word, but if you don’t believe it, you will deny the evidence. I agree with LeslieAnne that this is not the place for so much extended, if not interminable discussion. With so many theories, speculations, suppositions, and assumptions, there’s no way to resolve all the issues until the Lord Jesus Christ returns in glory, and creates order out of this chaotic world which would destroy itself through man’s inability to rule himself were it not for God’s ultimate intervention.
GrimmaTheNome over 13 years ago
Order from chaos seems impossible to me
have you never seen a crystal grow from a solution? Thats (local) order from chaos with no intelligent input required.
Captain_Commando over 13 years ago
billdi said, “Show me the scientific evidence that supports your contention! You can’t because it does not exist.”
The same can be said about Evolution, you know.
GrimmaTheNome over 13 years ago
round and round…
I think the Bible is the best evidence since it’s God’s Word,
How do you know that?
slacosse over 13 years ago
really, time doesn’t exist so everything is happening at once, we just perceive what we want anyway.
Puddleglum2 over 13 years ago
Doesn’t someone (a god) have to MAKE a saturated solution to grow a crystal? That’s intelligent input, isn’t it? And a ‘made saturated solution’ doesn’t sound like chaos to me. “Reshpeckobiggle,” said Puddleglum.
GrimmaTheNome over 13 years ago
Show me the scientific evidence that supports your contention! You can’t because it does not exist.”
The same can be said about Evolution, you know.
It could be said, if the person saying it was either wilfully ignorant or a liar. There’s shedloads of evidence supporting the theory of evolution.
The Bible got one thing right, ‘there are none so blind as those that will not see’
Captain_Commando over 13 years ago
GrimmaTheNome said, “It could be said, if the person saying it was either wilfully ignorant or a liar. There’s shedloads of evidence supporting the theory of evolution.”
If there’s so much evidence for evolution, why didn’t you give us any examples?
Puddleglum2 over 13 years ago
esconopeles65, Since nothing ever has been proven to evolve from one ‘kind’ to another (macroevolution), why assume that humans will evolve to a higher kind. There’s no ‘missing link’; all the links are missing! Besides, what if humans became extinct (destroyed each other and the world) before they evolved into a higher form. “The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord’s: but the earth has he given to the children of men.” - Psalms 115:16 Humans are the center of God’s attention in the universe, that we might bring glory to him who alone is worthy.
Nairebis over 13 years ago
Evidence for evolution? Coming right up. The following video in four minutes fairly brilliantly demonstrates that either evolution is true, or God is an idiot engineer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO1a1Ek-HD0
In short, a Giraffe’s laryngeal nerve goes all the way down the neck, around the heart, and back up almost to the same spot. It’s completely understandable in the context of evolution.
Of course, antibiotic resistance already demonstrates evolution, but I already know religious people won’t accept that.
bald over 13 years ago
some of these comments is why i stopped reading / commenting on this site
come on people it is a comic, not a forum for religious and political rants
billdi Premium Member over 13 years ago
actually evolution is no longer a theory – it has never been dis-proven by the scientific community, but rather has been confirmed repeatedly as the best and most rational explanation for how life emerged and evolved on this planet. the bible is many things, but it is not a scientific document that refutes evolution in any logical way.
Captain_Commando over 13 years ago
billdi said, “actually evolution is no longer a theory – it has never been dis-proven by the scientific community, but rather has been confirmed repeatedly as the best and most rational explanation for how life emerged and evolved on this planet.”
You mean it’s NEVER been confirmed, right?
khpage over 13 years ago
The prescient lawyer in Calvin comes to his rescue lest he become cat food in re Hobbes. Entropy and evolution are diametrically opposed logically speaking. One implies decrease, the other increase. Of the two , entropy is a law, evolution a theory. Irespective of what you call it, it is clear that the universe and all of its materiality STARTED. It has not been what it is eternally, nor will it be so in light of the law of entropy.
dahawk over 13 years ago
Nairebis, there is a great big huge difference between micro evolution (antibiotic resistance is micro evolution which can be scientifically observed) and macro evolution (the evolving of one species from another, which has never been scientifically observed).
Furthermore, engineering designers are prone to retain an original design in subsequent projects when it has worked successfully. No need to reinvent the wheel to design a semi.
And who knows, maybe the nerve path is for redundancy. Nature is rift will dual organs.
Suzywong over 13 years ago
For heavens sake, this is supposed to be a comic strip and a place for amusing comments on the strip NOT a forum for religion or evolution !!
GrimmaTheNome over 13 years ago
Doesn’t someone (a god) have to MAKE a saturated solution to grow a crystal?
no. There are huge deposits of rock salt, the remains of dried up seas.
And they took a lot more than 6000 years to form
gofinsc over 13 years ago
Thank God there is no more pain, suffering, and death in this current created world.
The only thing that is, is existence itself. It always was and it always will be. It’s completely incompehensible, so a creator had to be created to create it.
bmonk over 13 years ago
Actually, if you are gonna gripe or get into big huffs about what Calvin said, why not gripe about using “Tiger” of the Smilidon (Saber-tooth)? They were not more closely related to tigers than to any other living cats, which is why most biologists today use “Saber Tooth Cats”. (And it’s not an ancestor, more a cousin, or perhaps an uncle/aunt.)
carless over 13 years ago
OK the scientist said to God, I can create a human being. God said ok go ahead. The scientist said give me some dirt. God said make your own. People respect each other regardless of what we believe.
bmonk over 13 years ago
My own take on evolution and deep time (the 4.54 billion years of the earth, or 13.75 ± 0.17 billion for the universe):
If God did create it so as to “look older”, it seems awfully close to lying. If it really is only a few thousand years old, why make it seem consistently many billions?
Why make our DNA so close to the other animals? Why use very similar FOX genes and other such “fundamental” mechanisms in us that are found in mammals, particularly the great apes?
It is possible to get a consistent world-view from seeing God as creating the world–but a world-view including evolution and other scientific theories* is much richer, requires less “ad hoc” intervention, and allows us to understand much more of how things work. In the end, that is the God I know–not just the creator who likes to make puzzles for us.
Still, there seems to be something special about humankind, not just a quantitative difference from other animals, but a qualitative difference. Very few other animals have discovered or produced comics, much less an internet to have philosophical/religious debates on them. Does this require a special creation–of the human soul? I think so, but as a person of faith, not one of science. (Scientifically speaking, there is not good evidence or need for the human soul.)
*”theory” in the scientific sense: as a hypothesis that has been tested and found (so far) consistent with the world. It is a working idea, but may be replaced by a more accurate or comprehensive theory, as Einstein’s Relativity replaced Newton’s Mechanics.
Cameloo over 13 years ago
Calvin sure can make weird faces
Nairebis over 13 years ago
Well, if you don’t like giraffes, we could always talk about why Moles have vestigial, completely non-functional eyes. It’s completely understandable in the context of evolution. Using the god theory, it makes no sense.
We could also talk about the fact that in a mere 10K years, wolves were selected into animals from Chihuahuas to Great Danes to Sheep Dogs to Blood Hounds to Greyhounds. Sure, they were intelligently selected by humans, but it neatly demonstrates the fact that animals can dramatically change based on their environment.
The fact of evolution is as true as the fact that the Earth revolves around the sun.
ETA: I sympathize with people who hate when these discussions come up. But it’s important to fight ignorance and superstition. The minds of the religious won’t be changed, but it’s possible to protect and educate the next generation.
ldyhwkd over 13 years ago
Nairebis - I must agree with you that I hate when these discussions come up, but it is important to fight ignorance. The minds of the non-religious won’t be changed, but it is possible to protect and educate the next generation.
For the record, I work with geologist and hydrogeologists, most of whom agree with the theory of evolution (and yes, it is a theory); however, there is emerging evidence that dating processes may be inaccurate and the world is in fact younger than previously believed. Since this is not a popular idea, just as many scientific ideas are not popular in their infancy (think: the world is round), this is not yet popular knowledge.
bmonk over 13 years ago
Another odd fact: In a lake in British Columbia, there is a freshwater stickleback fish. The ocean stickleback, the original form, has a pair of fins on its belly that are like spikes, and make the stickleback hard to eat. But the lake sticklebacks have lost those spikes on their bellies. Biologists have shown that the genetic cause for not having spikes is that there is a switch that was disabled.
But their findings may have implications far beyond sticklebacks. They are convinced that there is a link between the stickleback losing its spikes and other creatures, like a manatee, losing their legs. And they have two tantalizing clues.
One: the same body-plan gene that is responsible for the stickleback spikes also plays a role in the development of the hind limbs.
The second clue is more tentative. The lake stickleback may have lost its spikes, but evolution has left behind some tiny remnants: the traces of bones. And they are lopsided, bigger on the left than on the right. So David Kingsley and his team went looking in manatees, searching for this lopsided pattern. And they found it. In box after box of manatee skeletons they saw pelvic bones that were bigger on the left and smaller on the right.
It seems that the same mechanism that led the stickleback to quit having these lower spikes also led the manitee to lose its legs.
tmick2001 over 13 years ago
We at least know one aspect of Bill Watterson’s beliefs of science vs. religion as we view this story arc. The controversy is not surprising, and the one will never change the other’s mind. It is a fun read tho!
SWEETBILL over 13 years ago
@shanonstrauss,
well, it so nice to have you on board, we just have to rid the other, know it alls…………………………………………
lin4869 over 13 years ago
There was a really fascinating PBS show on scientists who both believe in God and evolution. They’re not mutually exclusive.
Cperezisaac over 13 years ago
This is something challenging, try speaking the same way Calvin does it. Have fun
1comiccraze over 13 years ago
Really Quick thinking for Calvin!!! Knowing Him!!!LOL
glitterygal07 over 13 years ago
Don’t mess with Hobbes, Calvin.
JTGAM over 13 years ago
I have got to put my 2 cents in here! NOTHING is worse than people talking “a bit of science” who have such a limited knowledge of science AND throwing around scripture without having examined the original greek, latin, or hebrew is equally frustrating! A person who believes in God And chooses to believe in evolution is not at odds if he or she chooses to interpret it that way! As for NOT seeing the evidence of evolution well that is equal to the “blasphemy” of not accepting that the Earth orbits our Star every 365.25 days! And what!? Will you burn me at the stake also? Remember “Proclaiming themselves to be wise, they became fools” can work both ways! Be open minded and TRULY see the evidence and not some inaccurate translation that stated “6 days”!!!!
brad1138 over 13 years ago
For those of you on the religious/anti scientific side of things, if you are curious why that drives us nuts, a quick explanation.
We can have mounds of evidence regarding a point, and you will say “it can’t be true, it doesn’t agree with the bible” no logical discussion, no rational thought, it doesn’t agree with some 2000+ year old book, so it must be wrong.
People ignoring obvious logic made (some) sense in the dark ages, but it is hard to believe it persists today.
JTGAM over 13 years ago
By the way Puddleglum, if you want to see an explosion that results in order just look at our Star and the resulting energy transformations in photosynthesis and, I assume you consume plants, your growth and there you have it! Or do you eat mana every day?
lindz.coop Premium Member over 13 years ago
Could god or evolution or somebody make the spammers go extinct?
lehutan over 13 years ago
I subscribe to this comic strip because I enjoy Calvin and Hobbes. Once in a while I take the time to read some of the comments. I agree that the creation/evolution discussions are somewhat out of place, but like several others mentioned, it’s hard to keep quiet. Here’s my two cents.
Evolution does not equal science. Questioning evolution does not equal questioning science. Science is a tool to investigate the world. Both evolution and creation are interpretations of the data we gather with that tool, interpretations based on philosophical assumptions. To say that I deny or reject science because I question evolution is to display ignorance of both the nature and history of science.
As far as thermodynamics, regardless of whether the system is open or closed, raw energy on its own will not automatically decrease entropy. Living things are able to decrease entropy in their system only because they make use of a program (genetic information) and a mechanism for storing and converting energy (e.g., photosynthesis in plants). How did the program and mechanism arise in the first place? Crystals are not an adequate analogy, since they are only repetitions of a simple pattern decreed by the laws of physics, without the specified complexity of living things. See http://www.trueorigin.org/steiger.asp
All of the changes mentioned in animals so far are examples of downhill or horizontal change, in terms of genetic information. Far from being contrary to the creation model, they are in fact an important part of it. The kind of change evolution needs is uphill change, which has never been observed to occur in nature.
I believe someone asked for evidence that the world is not billions of years old. You could start with Carbon 14 in diamonds. http://creation.com/diamonds-a-creationists-best-friend Have fun explaining that one! When you’re done, here are 101 more, to give you just a taste. http://creation.com/age-of-the-earth
As for the recurrent laryngeal nerve, that is actually a theological argument, not a scientific one. How do you know what an omniscience, omnipotent Designer would do or not do? Furthermore, it’s an argument from ignorance. Just because we don’t currently know of a good reason for it to be so does not mean there is no reason. Rather than stop doing science and say “that’s just how evolution did it,” we should keep looking until we find the reason. As it turns out, there are several possibilities, as discussed here. http://creation.com/recurrent-laryngeal-nerve
To close off, science and logic are not the exclusive domain of the irreligious. In fact, personal experience suggests that quite a few of them have misplaced these important tools, which is a pity, since it seems their only recourse is ridicule and bluff. Actually, though, I’ve read more rational posts on both sides under this comic strip than in many other more “sophisticated” places on the web. :)
P.S. Sorry about the novel. I’ll shut up now.
JennieMR over 13 years ago
Puddleglum, thank you!!! Though I LOVE Calvin and Hobbes, I was always disappointed in the references to evolution in this strip. You know what you’re talking about, and I’m glad someone brought it up.
Jen
rogue53 over 13 years ago
It’s so nice to see the name calling and arguments involving a phrase in a comic strip. I’m sure that’s just what everyone is looking for when they take a look at the C & H comic. It’s a pitiful attempt to take a simple bit of humor and turn it into self-righteousness and arrogance. How about just letting it be a little bit of humor in an otherwise disturbed world. Is that too much to ask? Or better yet, how about forming your own blog site to argue religion…?
ratlum over 13 years ago
Would god not wonder at people reading comics,about toys talking,and giving advise to humans,his creation. He wants you to read laws in the bible you moron.
Puddleglum2 over 13 years ago
lehutan, Bravo! Your comments and links are expressedly apropos and timely! You answered most of the questions and accusations, and then some. I read much of the material from the links. I expect to read more. Unfortunately, most, if not all from the other side probably will not read much, if anything from the links. I’m commending your contribution here because I do not wish to provoke any further discussion from others at this time.
MrBugbear over 13 years ago
Hm I’m always a bit surprised about the opposition to evolution in religious circles. Evolution is fairly well documented, so it’s as a real phenomenon as anyone can think of. This means that the a literal interpretation of the Bible’s history of Creation can’t be true, so God’s chroniclers got some of the details wrong. Big deal. That sort of thing happens all the time.
However if one assumes the existence of evolution this also means that evolution was one of the tools available for God when implementing the actual mechanisms of Creation. So if one admits that the chroniclers got it wrong then one opens up the possibility that God was even more clever than previously thought. Why can’t the religious people accept this type of thinking, and many of them obviously can’t? I can’t understand why :-)
My own thoughts on the matter is that since science describes the world as best we know it, but that explanation is incomplete. If God exists, then He must exist within the frame we paint with science. One possible place where He could actually be hiding is within quantum fluctuations :-) The equations describing the universe is currently quite simple and seems to be getting simpler as we learn more. However, most of the variation we see in the universe seems to be originating from the randomness inherent in quantum mechanics. Not explicitly described by the equations, but following the equations nonetheless. If God could manipulate that randomness in quantum systems, that would give Him more than enough freedom to influence the universe as only a deity should be able to without breaking a single law of physics.
How to construct a religion that incorporates this, and also allows for what is known about science to change (as it will), and has universal appeal for people who wish to use religious explanations in all manners of situations, that still remains a challenge :)
lehutan over 13 years ago
@ Puddleglum2
Thanks.
@ MrBugbear
It’s not a matter of what God could have done, but what He said He did. God could have done anything He wanted to, but we’re not free to tinker with what He told us He did. Also, the Christian God, if He exists, is completely outside of our universe and not subject to the laws of nature nor the investigations of science. Why should we try to fit an omnipotent eternal spirit into our severely limited understanding of the natural world? It’s much easier to admit we don’t know quite as much as we like to think we do.
Anyway, I’ll try to keep out of these discussions on here. If anyone wants to discuss further, feel free to come on over to www.truthbelt.xanga.com and argue, discuss, disagree, and/or insult as much as you wish. :)
calvinsfreind over 13 years ago
calvin you almost got poned