Glenn Beck: Obama practices a type of Christianity Americans don't recognize. Jesus: Glenn, I don't recognize what you're doing here. Beck: Who are you?
Most evangelical Christians would not regard Beck as a Christian, as he is a Mormon. In Mormon theology, I believe, America is the new Promised Land. How many of Beck admirers know that he regards Joseph Smith as a divinely appointed prophet?
Do you honestly not see supsicion, fear, innuendo, and resentment in Beck’s TV monologues? He was relatively well-behaved in the rally, because the media was paying attention. He is a true fear-monger on his show.
But it has been very remunerative to him, I have to say. He’s got a good gig.
I always find it incredibly funny when I read the responses from the Righties on Rightie comics versus their comments on Leftie comics. Regardless of how absolutely outlandish the Right-wing comic may be, it’s always Okay, but the moment they don’t agree with the Left wing message, they attack the author.
Agreed, Jade. Beck is in the business of putting on a show, and raising fear and suspicion is one of his best tools. You don’t “take back America” from fellow citizens, you take it back from an enemy.
^ I’ve already mentioned that I simply do not care about the rally. Have you seen me make any comments on it? In fact the only thing I have said with any relation to it is that I don’t think MLK’s niece actually support civil rights, since she opposes rights for some of the same reasons the rights of people like MLK were kept from him.
Who’s to say that the words from his “pot” in the comic aren’t from his daily radio and TV shows. Those DO actually breed such things.
I just finished browsing the news for today, I find http://hr.blr.com/HR-news/Discrimination/Sex-Discrimination/Transgendered-Editor-Fired-for-Becoming-a-Woman/ far more interesting than Beck’s rally.
^ Assuming what you say is true, his faith has what to do with anything? It’s supposed to be about the law, religion has no place there. It has long had too much sway on things. Your religion is your own private thing, that is where it belongs.
http://www.christianity-101.org/
It is not defined by what days you celebrate or how many gays you bash.
I think the “Tea Party” is a group of disgruntled white people who see themselves gradually becoming a minority and are scared to death about it, and pissed off that their’s won’t be the only voice guiding this country in the near future. What passes for logic to them is just senseless name calling and fear mongering. It’s over folks, get used to it. Learn about other cultures and enjoy them, broaden yourself instead of getting even narrower!
Obama’s Christianity is not focused on Jesus Christ, the Son of God and the only way to heaven. That is what Jesus preached. The social aspect was a by-product of his divinity. The Christianity of Jeremiah Wright and such churches is that of the World Council of Churches, an organization that does not believe the Bible is the inspired word of God and that the mission of the church is to support the governments of the disadvantaged people of the world.
Americans understand a Christianity that promises a Kingdom to come. Obama and his ilk understand a Christianity that says “make a kingdom here”, and you don’t even have to do it in the name of Jesus, just “follow his example.”
^ If Falwell, Robertson, Bakker, or Swaggart had said that Obama practices a Christianity most Americans wouldn’t recognize, Toles might very well have drawn the same ‘toon about them.
(Of course, if Beck is in fact a Mormon, then his own Christianity IS fundamentally different than the others’.)
HabaneroBuck: “Obama’s Christianity is not focused on Jesus Christ, the Son of God and the only way to heaven. That is what Jesus preached. The social aspect was a by-product of his divinity.”
Faith without works is dead, li’l Buckaroo…
“Obama and his ilk understand a Christianity that says ‘make a kingdom here’, and you don’t even have to do it in the name of Jesus, just ‘follow his example.’”
Go back and reread the Parable of the Good Samaritan, and keep this in mind: Jesus’ audience felt about Samaritans the way Beck’s audience feels about “Obama and his ilk” (perhaps worse). Better a virtuous pagan than a pious hypocrite.
Wow, harley, until the last half of your last sentence, I was agreeing with you.
Obama was elected to lead the country. Isn’t there something in Romans about respecting temporal leaders, since God has placed them over you? In what way is Obama’s position different than any other President, all of whom have had their own agendas?
And of course, that passage of Romans was addressed to Romans, who at the time were living under pagan rulers, not merely someone with a different brand of Christianity…
Again, harley, it’s not that I question that the statement was made (by whomsoever), but how is that different from any other elected official?
Whatever unpleasant connotations you may give to the word “rule”, Obama’s been no more autocratic or imperial that his predecessors, the most immediate of whom explicitly said that he was “chosen by God” to fill the position.
In C.S. Lewis’s Chronicles of Narnia: The Last Battle, Aslan says that any good act is a service to Aslan, even if performed in the name of Tash (the god of the Calormenes), and any evil act is a service to Tash, even if performed in the name of Aslan, for “I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him.”
No he didn’t. He said, “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s” Matthew 22:21.
If anything Jesus was against the Rich. “Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves money belts which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near nor moth destroys.” Luke 12:33
But citing all this will fall on def ears since the Cons bring up Jesus only when it suits them.
And let’s not forget “Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God.” Matthew 19:24
A Toles cartoon from the Reagan years had Ronnie dashing out of a church upon hearing these words from Heaven, saying “Now I remember why I don’t go in there more often.”
Beck is a Mormon. Check out his book: An Unlikely Mormon: The Conversion Story of Glenn Beck. Published in 2008 by Deseret Press, the Mormon church’s publication house.
Mormons revere Jesus, but also believe the message of prophet who came long after Jesus, and the book his produced from direct divine revelation. Joseph Smith revealed the virtue of polygamy and the subordination of women, and some Mormons still keep a multiple wives, not having accepted the later revelation of the Mormon prophets that ended the practice. Some Mormons have committed acts of violence against apostates, though this is not officially sanctioned. Nonbelievers are not permitted to set foot into the innermost parts of Mormon temples.
In other words, Mormonism bears a striking resemblance, on some points with Islam. On the other hand Islam has never been officially racist, as the Mormon church was for the first 148 of its 180 years. (Blacks were first allowed to join in full membership in 1978.) Interracial marriage has never been prohibited in the Mormon church, but it is still officially discouraged (for people’s own good, or course).
Mormon believe that you can retroactively save your ancestors who weren’t Mormons by having them posthumously baptized. This is why the church has created the world’s greatest genealogical library.
Mormons have some interesting ideas also about America as the new promised land, visited by the risen Jesus centuries after the cross.
Mormons work assiduously to convert orthodox Christians to the Mormon faith. So it is interesting that Beck should have a following among evangelical or conservative Christians, who do not regard Mormons as fellow Christians, and in turn do not believe orthodox Christians are heeding the complete revelation in rejecting the book of Mormon.
Wow, Fritzoid! Loving your reference to Emeth in The Last Battle! That’s my favorite scene in the entire Chronicles series. Glad to see someone here is bringing the theological sophistication.
HabaneroBuck, on the other hand, couldn’t be any further from orthodox Christianity if he tried. “The social aspect was a by-product of his divinity”? WTF? The so-called “social aspect” is at the heart of the gospel, the prophets, and the broad sweep of the Bible itself.
tpenna, actually, the Bible explicitly defines the gospel, and it has nothing to do with anything social at all. It has to do with individual salvation. The gospel that is preached today is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ as an atonement for the sins of each individual. If you believe in that, you will have your sins forgiven. Once you have experienced that forgiveness, you are THEN called to go forth, do good, and SPREAD CHRISTIANITY. There really is no debate about this.
Everything that liberals find good in the Bible is something that comes secondarily after the humbling of one’s self before God. They skip the first part.
However, I will agree with the comments that Beck is a strange one to be bringing up Obama’s faith. The reason the Mormons took root in Utah is because they were cast out of every state beginning with New York and moving west. The history of the United States (which Beck has been detailing recently) has not been a kind one to his faith.
Again, Habanero, reread the Parable of the Good Samaritan. It’s quite famous.
Arguing “the gospel that is preached today” has no more weight than arguing “the gospel as it was preached in 1300 AD.” How about “the gospel as it was preached in 100 AD”, which included communal ownership of property? Better yet, how about “the gospel as it was preached by Jesus” in the Sermon on the Mount?
Or do you feel the further we are removed from Jesus chronologically, the better we understand his teachings? Geez, it must suck to have been a Christian in the Middle Ages, when for 1000 years everybody believed the same dogma (i.e. salvation through unwavering obediance to the Church, headed by an infallible Pope) but it was wrong…
The first Humanists to call themselves by that name were Christians, who argued that the heart of Jesus’s teachings was to improve the lot of Men on earth. After all, what does God need from us? Religion was made for Man, not Man for religion. “Love thy neighbor” was a commonplace even in Jesus’ time, not only in Hellenized Judea but throughout the world. “Love thine enemy, love the stranger among you, love the despised, love the oppressed, love the unlucky” was pretty radical, though (the Romans, for instance, thought that misfortune was contagious), and not an easy thing to do…
^^ Amos 5:22-24 - “Even though you offer me your burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them; and the offerings of well-being of your fatted animals I will not look upon. Take away from me the noise of your songs; I will not listen to the melody of your harps. But let justice roll down like waters, and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream.”
Micah 6:8 - “He has told you, O mortal, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God.”
But you’re probably right, HabaneroBuck. God’s probably much more concerned with your intellectual assent to certain credal formulations than with social justice matters. After all, I think Jesus said about as much in the parable of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46). Right?
And it seems to me that the Parable of Lazarus and Dives meshes nicely with the formulation “comfort the afflicted, and afflict the comfortable” (originally coined as part of the role of newspapers, but adopted by many social activists).
But I only partially agree with W(ar).Fool (“If anything Jesus was against the Rich”). It’s not so much how much money you have, it’s what you do with it: “From whomsoever much has been given, much will be demanded” [Luke 12:48]. Once you think you can start taking it easy because you’ve been saved, you’re in trouble. Not only will some who are perceived to be goats turn out to be sheep (per tpenna, above), but many who believe they are sheep will be turned away with the goats. It seems to me that Jesus reserved his greatest venom for “righteous” hypocrisy.
(Actually, I’ve never cared for the “sheep/goat” metaphor; goats have their value, as well. But then again, I’m a Capricorn, not an Aries…)
fritzoid, when I say the gospel that is preached today, I am referring to that of the Apostle Paul. I Corinthians 15:1-4. Sorry for any confusion. I agree with both of your points about justice and righteousness.
As it relates to Obama, I really don’t see evidence of Christianity doing anything in his life. He certainly is on record comforting Muslims much more in his time in office than he is Christians, of whom he is famously quoted as saying that they “cling to…religion.”
“fritzoid, when I say the gospel that is preached today, I am referring to that of the Apostle Paul. I Corinthians 15:1-4.”
Paul’s writings, however, are not “the gospel”; they’re epistles. If Jesus himself is “the Constitution”, Paul is in many ways an “activist judge”. If you want to worship Jesus as God, go ahead. All the more reason to pay close attention to what HE said, not just what was said ABOUT him. Otherwise, you might just as well call yourself a “Paulian”…
“As it relates to Obama, I really don’t see evidence of Christianity doing anything in his life.”
Who are you to judge?
“He certainly is on record comforting Muslims much more in his time in office than he is Christians, of whom he is famously quoted as saying that they ‘cling to…religion.’”
Pretty much everyone, including Obama, acknowledges that that was a particularly unfortunate choice of words, it’s true. But why should Obama “comfort” Christians in the first place? He’s the Head of State of a pluralistic nation. The majority of the nation adheres to some form of Christianity or another, but we’re not a “Christian nation.” Even though the Founding Fathers (I mean of 1776-1787, not 1603 or 1620) invoked (variously) God, Providence, or a Creator in establishing our nation and government, they created a Constitution which is not only entirely (and explicitly) secular, but included provisions specifically such that those holding minority or unpopular views have freedom to promote and practice them (the Pilgrims of Plymouth, certainly, would have had no truck with THAT idea).
If you were a Muslim in America, you’d be feeling pretty unwelcome, if not fearful for your life. But what sort of “comfort” is Obama giving Muslims, other than trying to assure them that they may safely and publically be Muslims in America? In what way is Obama giving “comfort” to Muslim nations, other than to assure them that we do not consider them our enemies simply because they’re Muslims? ”Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God.” Is Obama trying to institute Sharia? (And some of our “staunchest allies” operate under Sharia, or have you forgotten St. W’s pals in the House of Saud?)
In what way is Obama denying comfort to the Christian majority, other than failing to acknowledge what they feel is their right to primacy?
Please, HabaneroBuck, look into the Good Samaritan. Islam is not our enemy. Muslims are not our enemies. Terrorists are our enemies, and they are the enemies of America, not merely the Christians herein.
Totally agree fritzoid and with muslims getting knifed in NYC. and shot at in Tennesse and other such things the muslims need to feel safe.
This country is SUPPOSED to be tolerant of all religions and or non-religious. The problems come up when the evangelical and fundamental “christians” think only THEY can go to “heaven” and only their religion is right.
AND THE PRESIDENT DOESN’T NEED TO GO TO CHURCH OR EVEN BE A CHRISTIAN ACCORDING TO THE CONSTITUTION. WONDER WHAT THE REP WOULD THINK IF WE HAD A WOMAN, OR GAY, OR MUSLIM OR ATHEIST RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT!!!! GUESS THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN!!!
Just for fun, I’ll point out that the story fritzoid refers to from CS Lewis involves a character named “Emeth,” which I just regarded as a strange name when I was a kid. When I went to college, I learned that “Emeth” is a Hebrew word meaning “Truth.”
Go back and reread John 14:6 (“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”) with the story of the Calormene soldier accepted by Aslan in mind.
I would not object to being called a “Pauline Christian.” He was, after all, the apostle to the gentiles.
A tree is judged of its fruit.
The Parable of the Good Samaritan does not teach that the false beliefs of the Samaritans should be tolerated or not confronted, but that we should do good to all people in need when we are able.
All Muslims “good and bad” spread vicious lies about Christianity and do not allow its practice in countries where they are in power.
I did not mean to imply that Obama needed to comfort Christians, only that it is obvious that he IS trying to comfort Muslims. Technically, for Obama to be any sort of Christian is a heresy deserving death in the Islamic religion, since he has very clearly been identified as Muslim at one point in his life.
hlp, anyone is allowed to run for president. They can say whatever they want. Obama claimed to be a Christian, so that is what we are judging.
Good Lord, HabaneroBuck! I’ve been having this same argument with my brother on Facebook. And just like you, he doesn’t know jack about Islam!
Do you actually know any modern Muslims at all? Because I’ve got lots of Muslim friends, and not a one of them believes that a Muslim who converts to Christianity is guilty of heresy and deserving death.
And besides that, nobody with a brain (I present the dimwitted Franklin Graham as Exhibit A) would assert that Obama “has very clearly been identified as Muslim” at any point in his life. He simply never was a Muslim. But even if he had been, there would be nothing wrong with it! Whatever you take his past associations to have been, President Obama has been a Christian for years now.
And finally, your assertion that “all Muslims” spread “vicious lies” about Christianity is a whopping generalization and is patently ridiculous. Again, you’re unduly smearing my Muslim friends (one of whom is a convert from Christianity), and I take great exception to that. Further, we currently have Muslims “in power,” as it were, here in America. We’ve got two sitting Muslim congressmen, and neither one of them has ever attempted to disallow Christian practices.
My advice to you is to go out and make some Muslim friends. Get to know them, and ask them about their faith. Don’t try to combat them. Instead, try to learn from them. They might just help you to be a better Christian. That’s what I’ve found to be true for myself.
“The Parable of the Good Samaritan does not teach that the false beliefs of the Samaritans should be tolerated or not confronted, but that we should do good to all people in need when we are able.”
You’re halfway there, Habanero. Your explanation would suffice if the Samaritan were the one who was waylaid, not the one who offered assistance.
Jesus says “Love thy neighbor.” He is asked “Who is my neighbor?” He tells the story of the traveller who is waylaid and left for dead. A priest passes by, and does nothing. A Levite passes by, and does nothing. A despised Samaritan passes by, and tends to the man without expecting recompense. “Which of these three was a neighbor to the man who was waylaid by robbers?” Not the two who had the “correct beliefs” and did not act, but the one who held “false beliefs” yet showed him compassion.
Both works and faith would of course be ideal. But given Jesus’s comparison here of “faith without works” with “works without faith”, which, as tpenna pointed out (the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats), is the course more likely to find favor with God?
And again, how is Obama “comforting” Muslims, other than simply by not condemning them? He is the President of Muslim Americans as well as Christian Americans.
150 years ago, Lincoln was accused of being a secret Catholic because he wasn’t sufficiently anti-Catholic. Like Muslims today it was then felt that Catholics could not be truly loyal to the United States, since their ultimate allegience would be to the Pope. And let’s not forget all the jokes about “President Rosenfeld” back in the 1930’s…
In Germany between the wars, it became the official position that one could not simultaneously be Jewish and German. That came as a big surprise to a lot of assimilated Jews who had fought for the Kaiser just a few years before…
tpenna, I actually worked with a Muslim from Mauritania in a machine shop. He was an everyday Joe, not even close to a Muslim scholar. I talked to him about a number of things, and I was always able to bring a smile to his face. He smoked and swore. You couldn’t even talk to him about the Bible, because he had been taught that man had perverted the New Testament and it couldn’t be trusted. He thought Jesus (“Issa”) was a prophet, but not divine. If Jesus is not God, then he should be summarily dismissed and treated with contempt. The Muslims, on the other hand, turn him into a forerunner of Mohammad, who in turn is supposedly the fulfillment of Deuteronomy 18:15 (even though Mohammad certainly was not a son of Israel).
How is Obama comforting Muslims? I am not even going to begin to list it all, but the NASA incident was preposterous enough…..
No, many western Muslims do not believe in killing for conversion, but the doctrines of “murtadd” and “taqiyya” are real things worth our consideration.
‘“One, [Obama] wanted me to help reinspire children to want to get into science and math; he wanted me to expand our international relationships; and third, and perhaps foremost, he wanted me to find a way to reach out to the Muslim world and engage much more with dominantly Muslim nations to help them feel good about their historic contribution to science, math, and engineering … It is a matter of trying to reach out and get the best of all worlds, if you will, and there is much to be gained by drawing in the contributions that are possible from the Muslim [nations].’”
SuperGriz over 13 years ago
Dream a little dream.
http://tinyurl.com/2fqmf8u
Then there’s this:
http://tinyurl.com/2cxvhyn
aardvarkseyes over 13 years ago
That frog sure doesn’t look happy…
Doughfoot over 13 years ago
Most evangelical Christians would not regard Beck as a Christian, as he is a Mormon. In Mormon theology, I believe, America is the new Promised Land. How many of Beck admirers know that he regards Joseph Smith as a divinely appointed prophet?
WarBush over 13 years ago
What Would Jesus Do?
rotts over 13 years ago
Yeah, Beck’s certainly not a WWJD kind of guy.
Oh, and doppelspammerflaggen!
jhouck99 over 13 years ago
^Jesus would be ashamed at most of the things done in His name…
ARodney over 13 years ago
Do you honestly not see supsicion, fear, innuendo, and resentment in Beck’s TV monologues? He was relatively well-behaved in the rally, because the media was paying attention. He is a true fear-monger on his show.
But it has been very remunerative to him, I have to say. He’s got a good gig.
Jaedabee Premium Member over 13 years ago
I always find it incredibly funny when I read the responses from the Righties on Rightie comics versus their comments on Leftie comics. Regardless of how absolutely outlandish the Right-wing comic may be, it’s always Okay, but the moment they don’t agree with the Left wing message, they attack the author.
Motivemagus over 13 years ago
Agreed, Jade. Beck is in the business of putting on a show, and raising fear and suspicion is one of his best tools. You don’t “take back America” from fellow citizens, you take it back from an enemy.
Jaedabee Premium Member over 13 years ago
^ I’ve already mentioned that I simply do not care about the rally. Have you seen me make any comments on it? In fact the only thing I have said with any relation to it is that I don’t think MLK’s niece actually support civil rights, since she opposes rights for some of the same reasons the rights of people like MLK were kept from him.
Who’s to say that the words from his “pot” in the comic aren’t from his daily radio and TV shows. Those DO actually breed such things.
I just finished browsing the news for today, I find http://hr.blr.com/HR-news/Discrimination/Sex-Discrimination/Transgendered-Editor-Fired-for-Becoming-a-Woman/ far more interesting than Beck’s rally.
Jaedabee Premium Member over 13 years ago
^ Assuming what you say is true, his faith has what to do with anything? It’s supposed to be about the law, religion has no place there. It has long had too much sway on things. Your religion is your own private thing, that is where it belongs. http://www.christianity-101.org/
It is not defined by what days you celebrate or how many gays you bash.
tcolkett over 13 years ago
I think the “Tea Party” is a group of disgruntled white people who see themselves gradually becoming a minority and are scared to death about it, and pissed off that their’s won’t be the only voice guiding this country in the near future. What passes for logic to them is just senseless name calling and fear mongering. It’s over folks, get used to it. Learn about other cultures and enjoy them, broaden yourself instead of getting even narrower!
biemmezeta over 13 years ago
Let me get this right … . you speak for Jesus??
HabaneroBuck over 13 years ago
A little illumination…
Obama’s Christianity is not focused on Jesus Christ, the Son of God and the only way to heaven. That is what Jesus preached. The social aspect was a by-product of his divinity. The Christianity of Jeremiah Wright and such churches is that of the World Council of Churches, an organization that does not believe the Bible is the inspired word of God and that the mission of the church is to support the governments of the disadvantaged people of the world.
Americans understand a Christianity that promises a Kingdom to come. Obama and his ilk understand a Christianity that says “make a kingdom here”, and you don’t even have to do it in the name of Jesus, just “follow his example.”
Kylop over 13 years ago
Tom, I don’t really see Glen’s christianity as being different than Falwell’s or Roberts’ or Baker’s or Swaggart’s, ……..
Would you have drawn the same ‘toon for them?
fritzoid Premium Member over 13 years ago
^ If Falwell, Robertson, Bakker, or Swaggart had said that Obama practices a Christianity most Americans wouldn’t recognize, Toles might very well have drawn the same ‘toon about them.
(Of course, if Beck is in fact a Mormon, then his own Christianity IS fundamentally different than the others’.)
fritzoid Premium Member over 13 years ago
HabaneroBuck: “Obama’s Christianity is not focused on Jesus Christ, the Son of God and the only way to heaven. That is what Jesus preached. The social aspect was a by-product of his divinity.”
Faith without works is dead, li’l Buckaroo…
“Obama and his ilk understand a Christianity that says ‘make a kingdom here’, and you don’t even have to do it in the name of Jesus, just ‘follow his example.’”
Go back and reread the Parable of the Good Samaritan, and keep this in mind: Jesus’ audience felt about Samaritans the way Beck’s audience feels about “Obama and his ilk” (perhaps worse). Better a virtuous pagan than a pious hypocrite.
“Go thou and do likewise.”
fritzoid Premium Member over 13 years ago
Wow, harley, until the last half of your last sentence, I was agreeing with you.
Obama was elected to lead the country. Isn’t there something in Romans about respecting temporal leaders, since God has placed them over you? In what way is Obama’s position different than any other President, all of whom have had their own agendas?
And of course, that passage of Romans was addressed to Romans, who at the time were living under pagan rulers, not merely someone with a different brand of Christianity…
Jaedabee Premium Member over 13 years ago
Let’s all play the “WWJD” game!
SuperGriz over 13 years ago
“WarCriminal said, about 6 hours ago
What Would Jesus Do? ”
Beat the crąp out of Beck.
fritzoid Premium Member over 13 years ago
Again, harley, it’s not that I question that the statement was made (by whomsoever), but how is that different from any other elected official?
Whatever unpleasant connotations you may give to the word “rule”, Obama’s been no more autocratic or imperial that his predecessors, the most immediate of whom explicitly said that he was “chosen by God” to fill the position.
Justice22 over 13 years ago
^ “God” was the Supreme Court.
fritzoid Premium Member over 13 years ago
Re: Virtuous pagans…
In C.S. Lewis’s Chronicles of Narnia: The Last Battle, Aslan says that any good act is a service to Aslan, even if performed in the name of Tash (the god of the Calormenes), and any evil act is a service to Tash, even if performed in the name of Aslan, for “I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him.”
Dtroutma over 13 years ago
Well, as Palin had her witches driven out in a ceremony in Alaska, guess she’ll never run with Beck?
pirate227 over 13 years ago
“Who are you?” Ha! Priceless!
WarBush over 13 years ago
“In his day in age Jesus went against rulers ”
No he didn’t. He said, “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s” Matthew 22:21.
If anything Jesus was against the Rich. “Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves money belts which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near nor moth destroys.” Luke 12:33
But citing all this will fall on def ears since the Cons bring up Jesus only when it suits them.
fritzoid Premium Member over 13 years ago
And let’s not forget “Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God.” Matthew 19:24
A Toles cartoon from the Reagan years had Ronnie dashing out of a church upon hearing these words from Heaven, saying “Now I remember why I don’t go in there more often.”
Doughfoot over 13 years ago
Beck is a Mormon. Check out his book: An Unlikely Mormon: The Conversion Story of Glenn Beck. Published in 2008 by Deseret Press, the Mormon church’s publication house.
Mormons revere Jesus, but also believe the message of prophet who came long after Jesus, and the book his produced from direct divine revelation. Joseph Smith revealed the virtue of polygamy and the subordination of women, and some Mormons still keep a multiple wives, not having accepted the later revelation of the Mormon prophets that ended the practice. Some Mormons have committed acts of violence against apostates, though this is not officially sanctioned. Nonbelievers are not permitted to set foot into the innermost parts of Mormon temples.
In other words, Mormonism bears a striking resemblance, on some points with Islam. On the other hand Islam has never been officially racist, as the Mormon church was for the first 148 of its 180 years. (Blacks were first allowed to join in full membership in 1978.) Interracial marriage has never been prohibited in the Mormon church, but it is still officially discouraged (for people’s own good, or course).
Mormon believe that you can retroactively save your ancestors who weren’t Mormons by having them posthumously baptized. This is why the church has created the world’s greatest genealogical library.
Mormons have some interesting ideas also about America as the new promised land, visited by the risen Jesus centuries after the cross.
Mormons work assiduously to convert orthodox Christians to the Mormon faith. So it is interesting that Beck should have a following among evangelical or conservative Christians, who do not regard Mormons as fellow Christians, and in turn do not believe orthodox Christians are heeding the complete revelation in rejecting the book of Mormon.
.
Dtroutma over 13 years ago
Mormon = post Mohammed Muslims. (but they had gold plates in a hat, and Native American tribes were faced with dudes in chariots—–right!)
Jaedabee Premium Member over 13 years ago
The Love of Money is the Root of all Evil.
Um… scratch that, it’s inconvenient to the dogma.
tpenna over 13 years ago
Wow, Fritzoid! Loving your reference to Emeth in The Last Battle! That’s my favorite scene in the entire Chronicles series. Glad to see someone here is bringing the theological sophistication.
HabaneroBuck, on the other hand, couldn’t be any further from orthodox Christianity if he tried. “The social aspect was a by-product of his divinity”? WTF? The so-called “social aspect” is at the heart of the gospel, the prophets, and the broad sweep of the Bible itself.
fritzoid Premium Member over 13 years ago
I disagree with Lewis on many key points, but I think I’d have liked him. And, I hope, vice versa.
HabaneroBuck over 13 years ago
tpenna, actually, the Bible explicitly defines the gospel, and it has nothing to do with anything social at all. It has to do with individual salvation. The gospel that is preached today is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ as an atonement for the sins of each individual. If you believe in that, you will have your sins forgiven. Once you have experienced that forgiveness, you are THEN called to go forth, do good, and SPREAD CHRISTIANITY. There really is no debate about this.
Everything that liberals find good in the Bible is something that comes secondarily after the humbling of one’s self before God. They skip the first part.
However, I will agree with the comments that Beck is a strange one to be bringing up Obama’s faith. The reason the Mormons took root in Utah is because they were cast out of every state beginning with New York and moving west. The history of the United States (which Beck has been detailing recently) has not been a kind one to his faith.
fritzoid Premium Member over 13 years ago
Again, Habanero, reread the Parable of the Good Samaritan. It’s quite famous.
Arguing “the gospel that is preached today” has no more weight than arguing “the gospel as it was preached in 1300 AD.” How about “the gospel as it was preached in 100 AD”, which included communal ownership of property? Better yet, how about “the gospel as it was preached by Jesus” in the Sermon on the Mount?
Or do you feel the further we are removed from Jesus chronologically, the better we understand his teachings? Geez, it must suck to have been a Christian in the Middle Ages, when for 1000 years everybody believed the same dogma (i.e. salvation through unwavering obediance to the Church, headed by an infallible Pope) but it was wrong…
The first Humanists to call themselves by that name were Christians, who argued that the heart of Jesus’s teachings was to improve the lot of Men on earth. After all, what does God need from us? Religion was made for Man, not Man for religion. “Love thy neighbor” was a commonplace even in Jesus’ time, not only in Hellenized Judea but throughout the world. “Love thine enemy, love the stranger among you, love the despised, love the oppressed, love the unlucky” was pretty radical, though (the Romans, for instance, thought that misfortune was contagious), and not an easy thing to do…
tpenna over 13 years ago
^^ Amos 5:22-24 - “Even though you offer me your burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them; and the offerings of well-being of your fatted animals I will not look upon. Take away from me the noise of your songs; I will not listen to the melody of your harps. But let justice roll down like waters, and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream.”
Micah 6:8 - “He has told you, O mortal, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God.”
But you’re probably right, HabaneroBuck. God’s probably much more concerned with your intellectual assent to certain credal formulations than with social justice matters. After all, I think Jesus said about as much in the parable of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46). Right?
fritzoid Premium Member over 13 years ago
And it seems to me that the Parable of Lazarus and Dives meshes nicely with the formulation “comfort the afflicted, and afflict the comfortable” (originally coined as part of the role of newspapers, but adopted by many social activists).
But I only partially agree with W(ar).Fool (“If anything Jesus was against the Rich”). It’s not so much how much money you have, it’s what you do with it: “From whomsoever much has been given, much will be demanded” [Luke 12:48]. Once you think you can start taking it easy because you’ve been saved, you’re in trouble. Not only will some who are perceived to be goats turn out to be sheep (per tpenna, above), but many who believe they are sheep will be turned away with the goats. It seems to me that Jesus reserved his greatest venom for “righteous” hypocrisy.
(Actually, I’ve never cared for the “sheep/goat” metaphor; goats have their value, as well. But then again, I’m a Capricorn, not an Aries…)
HabaneroBuck over 13 years ago
fritzoid, when I say the gospel that is preached today, I am referring to that of the Apostle Paul. I Corinthians 15:1-4. Sorry for any confusion. I agree with both of your points about justice and righteousness.
As it relates to Obama, I really don’t see evidence of Christianity doing anything in his life. He certainly is on record comforting Muslims much more in his time in office than he is Christians, of whom he is famously quoted as saying that they “cling to…religion.”
fritzoid Premium Member over 13 years ago
“fritzoid, when I say the gospel that is preached today, I am referring to that of the Apostle Paul. I Corinthians 15:1-4.”
Paul’s writings, however, are not “the gospel”; they’re epistles. If Jesus himself is “the Constitution”, Paul is in many ways an “activist judge”. If you want to worship Jesus as God, go ahead. All the more reason to pay close attention to what HE said, not just what was said ABOUT him. Otherwise, you might just as well call yourself a “Paulian”…
“As it relates to Obama, I really don’t see evidence of Christianity doing anything in his life.”
Who are you to judge?
“He certainly is on record comforting Muslims much more in his time in office than he is Christians, of whom he is famously quoted as saying that they ‘cling to…religion.’”
Pretty much everyone, including Obama, acknowledges that that was a particularly unfortunate choice of words, it’s true. But why should Obama “comfort” Christians in the first place? He’s the Head of State of a pluralistic nation. The majority of the nation adheres to some form of Christianity or another, but we’re not a “Christian nation.” Even though the Founding Fathers (I mean of 1776-1787, not 1603 or 1620) invoked (variously) God, Providence, or a Creator in establishing our nation and government, they created a Constitution which is not only entirely (and explicitly) secular, but included provisions specifically such that those holding minority or unpopular views have freedom to promote and practice them (the Pilgrims of Plymouth, certainly, would have had no truck with THAT idea).
If you were a Muslim in America, you’d be feeling pretty unwelcome, if not fearful for your life. But what sort of “comfort” is Obama giving Muslims, other than trying to assure them that they may safely and publically be Muslims in America? In what way is Obama giving “comfort” to Muslim nations, other than to assure them that we do not consider them our enemies simply because they’re Muslims? ”Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God.” Is Obama trying to institute Sharia? (And some of our “staunchest allies” operate under Sharia, or have you forgotten St. W’s pals in the House of Saud?)
In what way is Obama denying comfort to the Christian majority, other than failing to acknowledge what they feel is their right to primacy?
Please, HabaneroBuck, look into the Good Samaritan. Islam is not our enemy. Muslims are not our enemies. Terrorists are our enemies, and they are the enemies of America, not merely the Christians herein.
Henrie over 13 years ago
Totally agree fritzoid and with muslims getting knifed in NYC. and shot at in Tennesse and other such things the muslims need to feel safe. This country is SUPPOSED to be tolerant of all religions and or non-religious. The problems come up when the evangelical and fundamental “christians” think only THEY can go to “heaven” and only their religion is right. AND THE PRESIDENT DOESN’T NEED TO GO TO CHURCH OR EVEN BE A CHRISTIAN ACCORDING TO THE CONSTITUTION. WONDER WHAT THE REP WOULD THINK IF WE HAD A WOMAN, OR GAY, OR MUSLIM OR ATHEIST RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT!!!! GUESS THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN!!!
tpenna over 13 years ago
Just for fun, I’ll point out that the story fritzoid refers to from CS Lewis involves a character named “Emeth,” which I just regarded as a strange name when I was a kid. When I went to college, I learned that “Emeth” is a Hebrew word meaning “Truth.”
Go back and reread John 14:6 (“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”) with the story of the Calormene soldier accepted by Aslan in mind.
HabaneroBuck over 13 years ago
I would not object to being called a “Pauline Christian.” He was, after all, the apostle to the gentiles.
A tree is judged of its fruit.
The Parable of the Good Samaritan does not teach that the false beliefs of the Samaritans should be tolerated or not confronted, but that we should do good to all people in need when we are able.
All Muslims “good and bad” spread vicious lies about Christianity and do not allow its practice in countries where they are in power.
I did not mean to imply that Obama needed to comfort Christians, only that it is obvious that he IS trying to comfort Muslims. Technically, for Obama to be any sort of Christian is a heresy deserving death in the Islamic religion, since he has very clearly been identified as Muslim at one point in his life.
hlp, anyone is allowed to run for president. They can say whatever they want. Obama claimed to be a Christian, so that is what we are judging.
tpenna over 13 years ago
Good Lord, HabaneroBuck! I’ve been having this same argument with my brother on Facebook. And just like you, he doesn’t know jack about Islam!
Do you actually know any modern Muslims at all? Because I’ve got lots of Muslim friends, and not a one of them believes that a Muslim who converts to Christianity is guilty of heresy and deserving death.
And besides that, nobody with a brain (I present the dimwitted Franklin Graham as Exhibit A) would assert that Obama “has very clearly been identified as Muslim” at any point in his life. He simply never was a Muslim. But even if he had been, there would be nothing wrong with it! Whatever you take his past associations to have been, President Obama has been a Christian for years now.
And finally, your assertion that “all Muslims” spread “vicious lies” about Christianity is a whopping generalization and is patently ridiculous. Again, you’re unduly smearing my Muslim friends (one of whom is a convert from Christianity), and I take great exception to that. Further, we currently have Muslims “in power,” as it were, here in America. We’ve got two sitting Muslim congressmen, and neither one of them has ever attempted to disallow Christian practices.
My advice to you is to go out and make some Muslim friends. Get to know them, and ask them about their faith. Don’t try to combat them. Instead, try to learn from them. They might just help you to be a better Christian. That’s what I’ve found to be true for myself.
fritzoid Premium Member over 13 years ago
“The Parable of the Good Samaritan does not teach that the false beliefs of the Samaritans should be tolerated or not confronted, but that we should do good to all people in need when we are able.”
You’re halfway there, Habanero. Your explanation would suffice if the Samaritan were the one who was waylaid, not the one who offered assistance.
Jesus says “Love thy neighbor.” He is asked “Who is my neighbor?” He tells the story of the traveller who is waylaid and left for dead. A priest passes by, and does nothing. A Levite passes by, and does nothing. A despised Samaritan passes by, and tends to the man without expecting recompense. “Which of these three was a neighbor to the man who was waylaid by robbers?” Not the two who had the “correct beliefs” and did not act, but the one who held “false beliefs” yet showed him compassion.
Both works and faith would of course be ideal. But given Jesus’s comparison here of “faith without works” with “works without faith”, which, as tpenna pointed out (the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats), is the course more likely to find favor with God?
tpenna over 13 years ago
Or, as I prefer to put it: orthopraxy trumps orthodoxy, all the time.
fritzoid Premium Member over 13 years ago
And again, how is Obama “comforting” Muslims, other than simply by not condemning them? He is the President of Muslim Americans as well as Christian Americans.
150 years ago, Lincoln was accused of being a secret Catholic because he wasn’t sufficiently anti-Catholic. Like Muslims today it was then felt that Catholics could not be truly loyal to the United States, since their ultimate allegience would be to the Pope. And let’s not forget all the jokes about “President Rosenfeld” back in the 1930’s…
In Germany between the wars, it became the official position that one could not simultaneously be Jewish and German. That came as a big surprise to a lot of assimilated Jews who had fought for the Kaiser just a few years before…
HabaneroBuck over 13 years ago
tpenna, I actually worked with a Muslim from Mauritania in a machine shop. He was an everyday Joe, not even close to a Muslim scholar. I talked to him about a number of things, and I was always able to bring a smile to his face. He smoked and swore. You couldn’t even talk to him about the Bible, because he had been taught that man had perverted the New Testament and it couldn’t be trusted. He thought Jesus (“Issa”) was a prophet, but not divine. If Jesus is not God, then he should be summarily dismissed and treated with contempt. The Muslims, on the other hand, turn him into a forerunner of Mohammad, who in turn is supposedly the fulfillment of Deuteronomy 18:15 (even though Mohammad certainly was not a son of Israel).
How is Obama comforting Muslims? I am not even going to begin to list it all, but the NASA incident was preposterous enough…..
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/7875584/Barack-Obama-Nasa-must-try-to-make-Muslims-feel-good.html
HabaneroBuck over 13 years ago
Oh, and despite Obama’s claims to the contrary, there is an overwhelming abundance of testimony that Barack was, nominally at the least, a Muslim:
http://www.danielpipes.org/5286/was-barack-obama-a-muslim
No, many western Muslims do not believe in killing for conversion, but the doctrines of “murtadd” and “taqiyya” are real things worth our consideration.
fritzoid Premium Member over 13 years ago
‘“One, [Obama] wanted me to help reinspire children to want to get into science and math; he wanted me to expand our international relationships; and third, and perhaps foremost, he wanted me to find a way to reach out to the Muslim world and engage much more with dominantly Muslim nations to help them feel good about their historic contribution to science, math, and engineering … It is a matter of trying to reach out and get the best of all worlds, if you will, and there is much to be gained by drawing in the contributions that are possible from the Muslim [nations].’”
This is a bad thing?