Tom Toles for May 25, 2010

You know that the majority of Americans don’t care, and it has never been a problem in all of the history of warfare, but the GOP keeps using it.

I want to be in the foxhole with the REAL man…John Wayne, simple as that. The Shirly Temple guy belongs behind a desk……………….

KEN….You’re wrong! The majority of americans do care, and it certainly IS a problem….it destroys the cohesiveness of the combat unit. I was in the military and saw first hand what happened to the Shirleys….it wasn’t pretty. By the way, were you in the military? Yes or no…………

THAT would never happen.

John Wayne evaded military service. “Bad knees”, he said.

We all know about “bad knees”.

kreole said, about 2 hours ago

I want to be in the foxhole with the REAL man…

Do tell?

So am I to assume Moral Oral here hasn’t knocked up some young lady, abandoned her to single parenthood, spends nights in bars to find more girls with drugged drinks, marries one of them and then beats her? Or is this one of the good guys?

How about if we check with all the other countries who allow gays and ask them how it’s working out?

Kreole, the same used to be said of colored people and women. The military has sometimes lead the rest of society in getting past those kind of issues and back to the job at hand.

I was in the Army , and we knew who was what . Didn’t have any real problems , as long as they did their job .

Wait till Peetey and the other homophobes start showing up.

Last I checked the ones who are trying to get men naked via hazing are straight men…Kinda makes you wonder.

I was in the army and it wasn’t an issue…

“Didn’t have any real problems , as long as they did their job .”

That’s what it would probably boil down to anyway.

Hah hah!

Speaking of being in a fox hole with a “real” man, can I, too? That sounds hot… as long as there’s no bullets or explosions or death going on OUTSIDE of the fox hole. Or in it.. for that matter… there’d be other things going on. >.>

“it destroys the cohesiveness of the combat unit.”

I suggest you look up the story of Lt. Dan Choi. His unit knew he was gay and was fine with it. They also welcomed him back when he was returned to his unit temporarily. The more you know.

@kreole:

Speak for yourself. There are gays serving in Iraq right now. The problem comes only when their fellow soldiers learn that they’re gay. That proves that the problem is with the OTHERS, no the gay soldier. It’s a matter of discipline, just like when integrating black and women soldiers.

Oh, and the answer to your question: Yes, I served in the military–for 22 years, retiring as a Lt Col.

Let’s see: the first one is close-minded and might not agree with my religion, politcal affiliation, etc and may ask me to leave the foxhole, too, so I guess I wouldn’t want to be with him. But, the second one has his helmet on backward, so he might be a complete idiot and shoot me by mistake or kill himself, so I guess I’ll take my chances on the battle field.

kreole, John Wayne? The late actor? You DO know his real name was Marion Robert Morrison, don’t you?

Why do homophobic straight males always assume every single gay male finds them attractive?

(Algurka, you might want to take a look at those helmets again.)

You know, according to Kreole’s way of thinking, we should also kick blacks out of the military, because some of the whites don’t like them, which is bad for unit cohesiveness.

You know, according to Kreole’s way of thinking, we should also kick Latinos out of the military, because some of the whites don’t like them, which is bad for unit cohesiveness.

You know, according to Kreole’s way of thinking, we should also kick Jews out of the military, because some of the whites don’t like them, which is bad for unit cohesiveness.

You know, according to Kreole’s way of thinking, we should also kick out of the military, because some of the whites don’t like them, which is bad for unit cohesiveness.

“It is not the homosexual temptation to which a righteous man objects, but this lie that God created men to mate with toilets.”

LoL. So you’re saying people are toilets now? Wow, you’re a real icon of Jesus Christ aren’t you? P.S. Do you know how many straight men masturbate? It’d blow your mind! Oh, and did you know that Blow jobs are also considered sodomy?

“I am aware of many men who have been healed of homosexualism, but none of their biological parentage.”

I’d like to meet one! So are you saying that the vast majority of animals have ‘belief systems’ because they have demonstrated homosexuality? What happens to hermaphrodites? Human hermaphrodites, born with both sex organs. How does that work with the “belief system?” They’re gay regardless, based on your definition. Oh and Christianity is a belief system, is it not?

Charlie, when did you decide to be straight?

And what was your life like before then?

Regarding your ignorant “healed” comment, let’s go see what George Rekers and his Rentboy think about that! LOL!

Jade: “Oh and Christianity is a belief system, is it not?”

Yes, but I’m aware of many who have been healed from it.

Charlie, when did you decide to be straight?

And what was your life like before then?

It does not matter if it is “a belief system” or not. God loves all his children. And they are all human beings with rights.

Anthony makes a good point. No one decides to be staight.

And no one decides to be gay. Why would they?

They just realize it.

“It is you who call men toilets. I meant no such thing. I don’t define a man by his body parts or temptations.”

So … why mention : “It is not the homosexual temptation to which a righteous man objects, but this lie that God created men to mate with toilets” if it bears absolutely no pertinence to your post? What do toilets have to do with anything?

“Charlie, when did you decide to be straight?”

I would like to know the answer to this as well!

“Google will introduce you to many reformed homosexuals.”

If I “decide” to experiment with being straight for a while and then go back to being bisexual does that mean I was “healed” from being straight? Your logic is confusing.

“Homosexualism - the BELIEF than God created men to sexually partner with men is a belief system.”

Who holds that “belief” by the way?

“Doctors take great pains to correct their abnormalities.”

You completely avoided answering my question. Is it too difficult or outside of your world view? Regardless of what path a hermaphrodite is “put” on, they’re homosexual, according to you. And some even end up reverting (see the case in Texas). So explain, how does that work, since you know all of the answers?

And why did God create so many species of animals which engage in “homosexual acts?” I mean we know that humans have engaged in incestuous acts since Adam and Eve but … what’s the deal with animals?

And when did you decide to be straight?

oh and charlie what pray tell are two women who love each other?

for someone who finds homosexuality so abhorrent, you do seem to be focusing on men quite a bit.

^Women being gay is okay. The bible says nothing about lesbianism.

^i dunno…i don’t think rom 1:26 looks too favorably on lesbians.

@Anthony 2816: “You know, according to Kreole’s way of thinking, we should…”

Is that what they meant by an Army of One?

@k8giggles - Is your avatar a subtle reference to what I think it is?

In response to an earlier statement: “The majority of americans do care”

You’re right.

“Support is widespread, even among Republicans. Nearly six in ten Republicans favor allowing openly gay individuals to serve in the military,” says CNN Polling Director Keating Holland. “There is a gender gap, with 85 percent of women and 71 percent of men favoring the change, but support remains high among both groups.” http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/05/25/cnn-poll-nearly-8-in-10-favor-gays-in-the-military/

Oops?

What I found in combat was that I was actually a Buddhist at heart. I also served with “gay” men and women, and “Jesus freaks”. The gays left people alone, the “Jesus freaks” would never shut up.

Today, Mikey Weinstein (a Jew) has founded the Military Religious Freedom Foundation to stop the abuse of our men and women in uniform by those pushing “Christianity”- evangelical style, down their throats.

Whatever a person’s orientation, whether sex or faith- fine, but leave others who have a different view the “f” alone!

BTW Bruce, My first night in ‘Nam a guy about to go home was outside the guard bunker, I was inside. He was thanking God he was “getting out of this place”, and asked for a cigarette and I asked if he didn’t want to step inside to light up. He said “No, there’s no problem here”. He lit up, smoked half the cigarette and got blown in half by a sniper. Yep, he was getting out, so his “thanks” must have worked.

I resolved at that point to NOT make false assumptions about who was covering my back.

charlie; nobody believes all men were made to mate with men; the vast majority of men are straight, aren’t they?

We’re just saying that maybe God intended exceptions…there are hermaphrodites in the World, aren’t they (like that south African athlete). Who do you think made her? The Devil? Do you think she’s a hoax? An evil, sodomite moonbad conspiracy?

I think Charlie must be busy remembering what his life was like before he decided to be a heterosexual.

charlie666,

You sound like one of those men on the downlow.

Re; John Wayne ,It was a broken back .

As in “Broken Back Mountain”? Too easy…

How did he ride all those horses in all those westerns with a broken back? Ummm?

@dtroutma - Wow… that’s an incredible story….

@Fairportfan - LoL at that comic!

@jade

hehe, i can honestly say that wasn’t the reason i picked my avatar, but like so many things in art and life, there can be wonderful and unintentional symbolism.

charlie - I’m a psychologist. There is absolutely NO reliable, peer-reviewed research that indicates that homosexuality can be “cured,” which of course also falsely indicates that it is a disease. There is mixed evidence as to whether it has genetic components or representation in brain physiology (that is, do gays have different brains from straights? In some studies, yes, the wiring is a bit different, and it’s different for gay men than it is for lesbians), or is somehow acquired early. You can always believe what you want – God knows the First Amendment right isn’t limited to facts, as Glenn Beck proves daily – but the research doesn’t back you here. The people who are saying that are almost invariably conservative religious people. You know, like the guy who hired someone from “Rentboy.com.”

Oh, by the way, the Spartans, biggest bad-asses in military history: gay. Romans? Accepted gay behavior as a matter of course. (Julius Caesar, one of the best military leaders in history, was described as “every man’s woman and every woman’s man.) Etc.

What’s to say the guy talking in t he toon is the “straight” one???

MM- what’s the difference in brain chemistry or physiology after TBI or PTSD? Maybe we’d be better off if more of the folks worried about curing those folks instead of powering up their “gaydar”?

trout - agree completely. On your question, I’m not an expert in this area, but I know there is definitely damage done; the question is how to manage it. There’s one researcher - Joe LeDoux - who found a way to erase traumatic memory, but it has to be done within three hours. (Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind appears to have been inspired by an article on his work.) Essentially, you give a beta-blocker, and ask them to recall the memory - the beta-blocker disables your brain’s ability to re-store the memory, so it gets “lost.” Amazing stuff. But when he proposed using it to help with PTSD, there was a huge uproar, because therapeutic techniques focus on helping people manage the trauma, and the concern was that the patterns of dysfunctional thought around the trauma would remain even after the trauma itself was gone – the scars, as it were – and it would mess people up worse. Hence, you really would have to provide it right after the event (the three-hour mark). Of course, there is also an ethical issue in essentially erasing memories that might need to be retained.

charlie555….YOU’RE the bigot. You think someone’s being gay is a disease. And trying to “cure” it is like trying to change one’s personality. In every society there are roughly the same relatively small number of homosexuals. It does not threaten the breeders or make any civilization extinct. Are you really stupid?

I love how Charlie feels it’s “bigoted” to leave gays alone.

So, Charlie, there’s a question that you keep running away from: Since you claim sexual orientation is a choice, when did you choose to be heterosexual? And what was your life like before you made that choice?

We’re all waiting.

Semantics won’t save you, Charlie. Let’s re-word the questioning using your new terminology:

Charlie, when did you accept heterosexuality as defining your being? And what was your life like before you accepted it?

Regarding Dr. Socarides:

— Though Dr. Socarides’s ideas are still embraced by some conservatives, they have met with increasing disfavor in recent decades.

“Socarides outlived his time,” Gilbert Herdt, an anthropologist who is the director of the National Sexuality Resource Center in San Francisco, said in a telephone interview yesterday. “He became a kind of anachronism, and a tragic one in the sense that he continued to inflict suffering on the lives of some gay and lesbian individuals and the L.G.B.T. community in general.” http://tinyurl.com/33xp5nd —

I have an idea: How about we reserve these “treatments” for only homosexuals who want to try to change, and for all the others, we’ll just let them be.

“The fact is that most people in the world and most Americans believe homosexuality to be a disorder.”

Even if this is a fact, which you haven’t shown, I’d prefer to listen to experts than people like you, Charlie.

“Common sense science tells us that it is abnormal for a heterosexual species to engage in a practice that will ensure the species extinction.”

Charlie, there have been homosexuals in every human culture known, throughout history. So use your “common sense” and tell us, Charlie: Are we extinct? Or is our population continuing to increase at a geometric rate, despite all those homosexuals?

Common sense, indeed.

By the way, Charlie, when did you accept heterosexuality as defining your being? And what was your life like before you accepted it?

“There is no choosing of heterosexuality.”

Oh, so when you said, “Homosexualism is a belief system, not a human attribute like race and ethnicity” were you lying, or just temporarily mistaken? In either case, I’m glad you’ve finally acknowledged that sexual orientation is not a choice. Took long enough, but finally we can agree on something.

“Homo Sapiens ARE a heterosexual species.”

Charlie, there have been homosexuals in every human culture known, throughout history. That’s natural, just like left-handedness. That’s nature. That’s part of Homo sapiens. Your statement is in error…you should have said something like, “The majority of Homo sapiens are heterosexual.”

And certainly a big enough majority to quell your irrational fears that homosexuals are causing the extinction of the human race.

“Shall we stop viewing blindness and deafness as abnormal? Stop looking for cures?”

That depends…do blind and deaf people wish to be cured?

A bit late on this one, but… Dr. Socarides’ son is gay.

God works in mysterious ways…or so I’ve been told.

The dice are loaded.

“If you came home from Lowes with a hose and realized it had two male ends instead of one male and one female, I imagine you would do sex change operations on all your male faucets rather than return the hose and tell them they made a mistake.”

Yes, because I’d wish it to be cured. Unlike the vast majority of homosexuals who want nothing to do with your “cure”.

You didn’t answer my question, Charlie: “Do blind and deaf people wish to be cured?”

If you answered it honestly, then perhaps you could see the fatal flaw in your argument.

Why aren’t you demanding that left-handed people be cured? After all, their abnormality is even rarer than homosexuality.

“Like men who desire sex with boys and are fighting for the right to practice pederasty.”

Pederasty involves a victim, Charlie. Please tell me you’re not equating that with homosexuality.

The bottom line is that if homosexuals are happy the way they are, and they aren’t hurting anyone, and they want nothing to do with your silly ideas of “curing” them, why on earth should it be a concern of yours?

The opinion of the pederast does not supersede the protection of the juvenile, nor are they going to “infiltrate” the APA. Speaking of psychiatrists, you may want to consult one regarding paranoia.

Regarding your “private idol”, that’s both weird and immaterial. If either a deaf person or a gay person doesn’t desire a cure, then that’s up to them…not you.

I’m not sure what difference the actual number of gay people makes, but for the sake of accuracy: “All surveys are likely to underestimate the actual prevalence of homosexuality because, fearing discrimination and stigma, many gay respondents are reluctant to tell a stranger (even anonymously) that they are homosexual (e.g., Villarroel et al., 2006). Recognizing this limitation, most research with probability samples suggests that at least 3-6% of the US adult male population is homosexual, with somewhat fewer females”

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/factsmentalhealth.html

(You might want to read the rest of that web page…a little education would do you good.)

The bottom line is that if homosexuals are happy the way they are, and they aren’t hurting anyone, and they want nothing to do with your silly ideas of “curing” them, why on earth should it be a concern of yours?

The only reason any gays (and it’s a small minority) feel the need to speak out is simply because of bigots like you, Charlie. If they didn’t have you spewing your hatred, then what possible reason would they have to respond?

You leave them alone and they’ll leave you alone.

By the way, you really need to try to overcome your ignorance.

First, gays do not “self-loathe”. They have bigots like you to do that for them.

Second, they don’t feel “unworthy of women”. Is that why you’re straight? Because you feel you’re “unworthy” of men?

Third, many heterosexual couples engage in anal sex, despite your attempts at ignorant stereotyping.

Finally, your use of the phrase “life-giving seed” again makes it sound like you don’t think humans are reproducing fast enough. For reassurance to the contrary, I recommend you run this web page on your desktop:

http://math.berkeley.edu/~galen/popclk.html

Charlie, you really need to talk to some contented gays, and see how much they appreciate you trying to “cure” them. For someone who claims, “I have no interest in forcing a cure”, you sure dwell on it a lot.

You simply live in a different world…a fundie christian fantasy that has no basis in reality.

How would you feel if they insisted that they want you to know the love of a man and the joy of gay marriage? I’ll give you a hint: With the same response they would feel to your ignorant bigotry.

Sodomy? You mean oral sex? Heterosexuals do it far more than gays. Anal sex? Heterosexuals do it far more than gays. Your ignorance abounds.

Venereal disease? Lesbians have a far lower incidence than heterosexuals. Again, your ignorance abounds.

Lap dog? That’s your own private fantasy.

Treatment? Again, your own private fantasy. The vast majority of gays want nothing to do with your christian “cure”. For those that do, why bring up insurance? It’s all religion-based. Prayer is free.

You say, “How “victimless” is a movement that robs even those who want a cure from treatment?”

Robs? Garbage. Any gay person who wants your “cure” is free to get it. Saying they can’t is merely a lie.

As for the other points I brought up, you, as usual, ignored them, so we’ll just assume I finally got through to you.

The bottom line is that if homosexuals are happy the way they are, and they aren’t hurting anyone, and they want nothing to do with your silly ideas of “curing” them, why on earth should it be a concern of yours?

Let’s try to focus, Charlie. I know you’re getting desperate, but respond to my last posting.

For that matter, respond to motivemagus’s last two postings, that for obvious reasons you chose to ignore. Doesn’t it bother you that on a daily basis you have to convince yourself that you must believe in lies?

Put your APA fantasies where they belong…in the dustbin.

We are discussing your bigoted attitude toward homosexuality, not pedophilia.

Let’s finish that discussion, before we go off on your lame attempts to divert to another topic.

He denied no such thing. He just pointed out that “There is absolutely NO reliable, peer-reviewed research that indicates that homosexuality can be “cured,” which of course also falsely indicates that it is a disease. ”

He also pointed out that “The people who are saying that are almost invariably conservative religious people. You know, like the guy who hired someone from “Rentboy.com.””

Both of which undid your “cure” claims, which, as I said, for obvious reasons you chose to ignore…just like you ran away from most of the points I made.

You’d have shown a lot more honesty and integrity if you instead said something along the lines of, “You’re right, and I have no way to answer that.”

Can you cite peer-reviewed academic research showing this, or are anecdotal accounts from fundie christian sources all you have?

The first is what legitimate medical treatments have.

Don’t get me wrong, Charlie. If a gay person doesn’t like being gay, and wants to try your faith-based “cure”, I say go for it. Just don’t try to force it on anyone, and don’t expect the vast majority of gays to be beating a path to your door.

And try to adopt an attitude of live and let live. Use the golden rule.

Hey, Charlie, since you like to dwell on anecdotal accounts, work this into your world view:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/02/rel.haggard.announcement/index.html?eref=igoogle_cnn

“Ted Haggard, the megachurch pastor and former National Association of Evangelicals chief whose career was undone by a gay prostitution and drugs scandal in 2006, is expected to talk about the next step in his career Wednesday.

With his family by his side at his Colorado Springs home, Haggard is expected to a make “surprise groundbreaking” announcement, according to a news statement Tuesday.

In 2006, Haggard admitted he had received a massage from a Denver, Colorado, man who claimed the prominent pastor had paid him for sex over three years. Haggard also admitted he had bought methamphetamine but that he threw it away.

After the allegations were made public, Haggard resigned as president of the influential National Association of Evangelicals, an umbrella group representing more than 45,000 churches with 30 million members.

He also stepped aside as pastor of the 14,000-member New Life Church, which he started from his basement.

The church’s independent investigative board said he was guilty of “sexually immoral conduct.””

Just for fun, I tried Googling your phony “SSAD” (the first search result was “surviving spouses against deportation”!), and found this excellent discussion:

http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2007/03/no-standards-of-care-for-ssad/

To sum up, it’s all bogus unregulated unproven religious-mumbo-jumbo, and in no way a medical treatment or “cure”.

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