This is a free market society. When everything else is supposed to go to the highest bidder, why not public office, political power, and the law? Since the Free Market can do no wrong, and requires no regulation, in a society where everything has its price, and money is the measure of everything, then why even pretend to the old-fashioned nonsense about people mattering? Catering to what the people want, what the people need? That is rank Socialism! Everything the government does requires money, and if I pay twice as much in taxes as you do, then I should have twice the say that you do. If I want to buy a bigger say and you’re not willing to spend your money that way, or if you have been too imprudent to accumulate as much money as I have, then that’s just too bad! Out with the socialist, left-wing nonsense about 1 man, 1 vote. The new standard should be 1 dollar, 1 vote. The golden rule: those who provide the gold, make the rules. That’s what free enterprise is all about! That’s the True American Way! NB: Warning: Parody. But really, not far from the essence of some conservative philosophy.
I have to agree. A politician voting pro-business isn’t necessarily in the pocket of business. That’s a smart politician that recognizes that looting corporations to buy votes from the masses only leads to those corporations disappearing and leaving those same masses without jobs.
Mr. Obama along with Reid and Pelosi thought that they could loot corporations with impunity. Like little truffle pigs they kept going back to the same source to fill their insatiable need for vote buying cash that they dole out to the stupid and the lazy. Now the jobs market has completely dried up and Mr. Obama’s appologists keep telling us it would be even worse if he hadn’t robbed the productive to pay the indolent.
This country will begin to improve when we stop allowing the mentally and physically capable people to sit around for 99 weeks demanding the rest of the workforce carry them. They will only go back to work when they run out of Benefits, Savings, and the ability to live in their parent’s basement.
I concede that there a small group of people that society should support either because they are mentally or physically infirm. But there should be a horrible stigma attached to it so that anyone who can work will.
There are plenty of jobs out there but you are going to have to be willing to move to where those jobs are and you are going to have to be willing to work. Even my Brother-in-Law a drunken idiot was able to get a job in North Dakota. He’s not terribly bright but he works hard and he commands a middle class income.
@Kamwick – How are my comments black and white? I’m pointing out what would be good for this nation and I’m also going to the trouble of acknowledging that this solution isn’t one size fits all (There are some who cannot work due to real issues). But there are too many that are quite happy to take the government’s money as long as it will continue to flow and then sit on the couch and complain about how the rich aren’t paying enough.
I don’t mind if they want to sit at home and complain. I only start judging them when they are demanding that the government take some of it’s resources and spend it on them personally in the form of cash payments. You know who suffers when they do that? Us…The rest of the middle class because that leaves less money for: Parks, Good Schools, Roads, Telecommunications, Law Enforcement, Fire Protection and all the other government services that serve everyone.
Those of you who are convinced that this would all be better if the Rich would just pay their fair share have no idea how much they are paying and how little is being contributed by the long term unemployed, and the Medicaid recipients, and the SSDI recipients. I had to go into the SS office the other day to get a card for my son who needed a passport. The place wasn’t full of senior citizens applying for their benefits. It was full of able bodied young people who were there to convince the government that they need long term disability because they have some malady that isn’t obivous when they walk in the door. Each one of those applicants will not only not be contributing to a productive society but now they will be demanding extra services of it.
As usual, the right wing responses on this page are insubstantial and resort to distortion and misdirection. Doughfoot’s parody above is a damn good representation of the mentality of these people. The real root of ALL the most important problems in our country today is the omnipresent, overbearing power of money on the system. Citizens United will eventually be recognized as a criminal attempt of the uber-rich to finally take total control of the worlds’ resources and to drive the masses into serfdom. There is some voting by dead people in this country. They vote for BOTH parties! But still, the level of corruption on that level is minuscule compared to the distortions caused by the manipulation of the electronic voting machines today. For some reason, the right doesn’t seem to mind THAT at all!
@Tom – Since we are going to talk in caricatures "forcing people into Serfdom. Let me be the first to point out that the Citizen’s United Decision (Heroic and Thoughtful) was to stop the needy from Enslaving the productive to pay for all of their needs and wants.
You don’t like that money can influence politicians. I get that though I think it is rampantly paranoid to assume they are using that power to force you into serfdom. What I see the Wealthy and corporations lobbying for is: Freedom from the demands of people who feel that capitalism treated them unfairly. There are plenty of people out there jumping on the bandwagon that the Rich are greedy and selfish and don’t care about their fellow man and should be forced to pay more taxes because they probably inherited it or earned it doing something unscrupulous.
I came from modest means but I worked hard in High School, College and Grad School. I then got a good job in my profession of choice and worked hard for my employer and in return my employer has paid me handsomely. Not because some Union thug threatened to hurt his family but because we have a good working relationship and we both benefit from our cooperation. But you want to stop people from being able to offer a different point of view don’t you? You can’t stand that someone is successfull doing something different then you prescribe.
Now I see whiners like you dismiss arguments that don’t align with your progressive school of thought as misdirection or distortion.
I want my company and other corpoations to have access to the media and political process equal to Unions and other groups. If Unions are allowed to tell everyone that workers are nothing without them. Why shouldn’t my corporation be able to tell workers “That we will be successful by providing a good product at a fair price”.
Freedom of Speech means you have the right to express your ideas and your neighbor has an equal right. You would like Freedom of speech to mean YOU have the right to express your ideas and Censor anyone who expresses and idea that is different from yours.
Grow up and recognize that the modern world is global. That means you have many opportunities to succeed not just in your local market but accross the world.
@Tom – Are you really going to Argue against Citizen’s United which was, effectively, a freedom of speech decision and then try to say that you aren’t against inhibiting a corporation or group other then your own to speak. You don’t get it both ways.
I guess from your progressive perspective; my views must seem outdated: I believe that Hard work, fiscal discipline, continously updating my job skills, constantly watching for opportunities to improve my self and my lot in life are the keys to success. I believe that those who work hard and apply themselves will be successful. I believe that those who idly sit by and wait for providence are almost surely destined for disappointment and failure.
It is interesting that you brought up Social Darwinism – It was Charles Darwin who famously said: Those that are most adaptable to change are the most likely to survive. The world is changing and those of us who are prepared are doing quite well. I welcome globalization because it is an opportunity to be enjoyed. You seem to hate it because it forces you to compete with someone willing to work harder for less pay.
To be clear – You do want to deny a voice to certain groups within society but you protest that you are in favor of free speech. Only liars fear the open discourse because the truth will eventually manifest itself.
Read Atlas Shrugged by Ayan Rand and maybe you will start to see the sad demise that befalls those who want to exalt dependency and ridicule successful people.
The mess Obama has us in? lololol Just like all other right wingers you ignore the ecomonic melt down brought on by.. wait for it… 8 YEARS OF REPUBLICAN RULE.. all of your sudden ameniasia is just hilarias!
Putting a Stigma on taking Welfare isn’t about revenge. It’s to make Welfare far less appealing then honest work. Today, too many people are quite content to sit on the couch and wait for the money to roll in from the government.
From a young age I worked in a grocery store and I remember the foodstamp recipients coming in on Saturday to buy Junk food and premade meals with their foodstamps which allowed them to spend their own cash on Cigarettes and booze. Then at the end of Saturday I would get my paycheck and notice the money taken out to support the government and these people. Now I watch my kids work hard at weekend and summer jobs and help them figure out their taxes so they know how much they have to pay to support these deadbeats. These are not annecdotes, these are real experiences by someone who has seen the corruption and abuse first hand.
As to looting – What do you think the health care mandate is intended to do. It is going to force employers to cover the cost of health care for their employees whether or not it makes financial sense to do so. More workers will be laid off to avoid the costs and we will have even more unemployment.
Are you really looking at the Job #s and agreeing with the Obama apologists that it would have been much worse if he hadn’t done what he did? I don’t agree with them. I think you are seeing the results of Mr. Obama’s well meaning but misguided attempt to make the job market more user friendly to those with outdated job skills.
69000 jobs/month for the last two months. That is abysmal by any standard.
I know many of you want to help the unemployed but you aren’t helping them by making them more expensive to employ. The best way to help the unemployed is to make them less expensive though: Infrastructure improvements, reducing minimum wage, removing burdensome regulations.
As an example; my dad, at 79, has a small business. He’s getting a little infirm and would like to hire a part time employee to help him with some of the more physically demanding work. The minute he hires an employee his costs go through the roof because he has to pay: Unemployment insurance, work with the SS administration and a whole host of other burdens. It makes more sense for him to close the business because the government will wipe out any value that employee would bring to the business. As long as the costs of employees are all forced on the business that hires them, the job market will continue to stagnate.
@GreggW – Why Thank you. If you read your Goethe you will learn that Mephistopheles was a handsome, educated, well spoken man with Courtly manners.
I’m showing you how the US can regain supremecy in the real world. You want us to regain supremecy in the LaLa land you would like to exist. You know the real world is out there but if you accept that reality you will have to deal with it. And many are not yet ready to deal with reality. So go ahead and dream of a world where all outcomes are equal regardless of effort. I’m sure it’s a nice dream. But when you wake up you will be back in the real world and someone will have taken your job because you weren’t busy defending it by figuring out how to work smarter, faster, and harder.
Grow up – Name calling might be fun but it doesn’t move the discourse forward.
I remember my brother coming home to state the “Brown people (Pat that is!)” were paying folks on the street to vote. I went over to check it out. It was the NIXON PEOPLE paying $5 a head! BUT the press did end up having Dick Nixon to kick around, again.
Simple fact, vote buying has been going on for a long time. The difference is that “Citizens United” decision grants HUGE power to “NON-citizens”, as in Corporations, to influence the vote. BTW, all the unions combined can’t match what just Koch Industries can come up with, from “pocket change”. But I don’t think individuals, corporations, OR unions, should be able to SECRETLY contribute such huge sums of money.
So Mr. Gaunt. Are you saying that becuase your Kidneys don’t work at 100% you are entitled to the fruits of another worker’s labors? I have a guy that I work with that is on dialysis every few days and he doesn’t expect everyone else to cover him.
I don’t have X-ray eyes but I can see that you feel the country owes you that money.
90% of Wall St., Big Oil, Big Pharm and of course Military contractors’ money goes to elect Republicants. Just follow the money. At least the Dims throw a few bucks to the masses.
As long as we are fighting each other nothing gets done. Therefore is about the finding something we agree on.
I don’t know of anyone who thinks that “citizens United” is a good thing. Politicians spend nearly 50% of their time money-raising!! The toally unaccountable money being poured into both sides is something of nightmares.. Theses donors can even be other countries. If we all could agree to get "citizens United overturned, then we could feel good about it and it could be the one little thing that begins to heal our nation. There are in most cities and towns have petitions for everyone to sign. If you are tired of all the fighting, go find (or start one) a petition to sign!
@Pete Rogan – Regardless of the Supreme Court Decision I will not wish for Violence upon them. Those who foment violence should isolated from the rest of society.
I think that they should strike down Obama care but even if they ultimately determine that it is Constitutional I wouldn’t think that violence should befall them.
You are wrong – Money doesn’t say shut up. It provides opportunitites to have your thoughts communicated across the country. Good Ideas only survive if they can be communicated.
Dtroutma almost 12 years ago
Yup, chump change.
pam Miner almost 12 years ago
Not if the will of the American people comes together and gets "citizens united " overturned.
Constitution tells about 1 person 1 vote!
Doughfoot almost 12 years ago
This is a free market society. When everything else is supposed to go to the highest bidder, why not public office, political power, and the law? Since the Free Market can do no wrong, and requires no regulation, in a society where everything has its price, and money is the measure of everything, then why even pretend to the old-fashioned nonsense about people mattering? Catering to what the people want, what the people need? That is rank Socialism! Everything the government does requires money, and if I pay twice as much in taxes as you do, then I should have twice the say that you do. If I want to buy a bigger say and you’re not willing to spend your money that way, or if you have been too imprudent to accumulate as much money as I have, then that’s just too bad! Out with the socialist, left-wing nonsense about 1 man, 1 vote. The new standard should be 1 dollar, 1 vote. The golden rule: those who provide the gold, make the rules. That’s what free enterprise is all about! That’s the True American Way! NB: Warning: Parody. But really, not far from the essence of some conservative philosophy.
thad.humphries almost 12 years ago
Thank you, Justice Scalia.
Mephistopheles almost 12 years ago
I have to agree. A politician voting pro-business isn’t necessarily in the pocket of business. That’s a smart politician that recognizes that looting corporations to buy votes from the masses only leads to those corporations disappearing and leaving those same masses without jobs.
Mr. Obama along with Reid and Pelosi thought that they could loot corporations with impunity. Like little truffle pigs they kept going back to the same source to fill their insatiable need for vote buying cash that they dole out to the stupid and the lazy. Now the jobs market has completely dried up and Mr. Obama’s appologists keep telling us it would be even worse if he hadn’t robbed the productive to pay the indolent.
This country will begin to improve when we stop allowing the mentally and physically capable people to sit around for 99 weeks demanding the rest of the workforce carry them. They will only go back to work when they run out of Benefits, Savings, and the ability to live in their parent’s basement.
I concede that there a small group of people that society should support either because they are mentally or physically infirm. But there should be a horrible stigma attached to it so that anyone who can work will.
There are plenty of jobs out there but you are going to have to be willing to move to where those jobs are and you are going to have to be willing to work. Even my Brother-in-Law a drunken idiot was able to get a job in North Dakota. He’s not terribly bright but he works hard and he commands a middle class income.
kwilson68 almost 12 years ago
I didn’t know Doctor Evil was on the $1,000,000 bill.
Mephistopheles almost 12 years ago
@Kamwick – How are my comments black and white? I’m pointing out what would be good for this nation and I’m also going to the trouble of acknowledging that this solution isn’t one size fits all (There are some who cannot work due to real issues). But there are too many that are quite happy to take the government’s money as long as it will continue to flow and then sit on the couch and complain about how the rich aren’t paying enough.
I don’t mind if they want to sit at home and complain. I only start judging them when they are demanding that the government take some of it’s resources and spend it on them personally in the form of cash payments. You know who suffers when they do that? Us…The rest of the middle class because that leaves less money for: Parks, Good Schools, Roads, Telecommunications, Law Enforcement, Fire Protection and all the other government services that serve everyone.
Those of you who are convinced that this would all be better if the Rich would just pay their fair share have no idea how much they are paying and how little is being contributed by the long term unemployed, and the Medicaid recipients, and the SSDI recipients. I had to go into the SS office the other day to get a card for my son who needed a passport. The place wasn’t full of senior citizens applying for their benefits. It was full of able bodied young people who were there to convince the government that they need long term disability because they have some malady that isn’t obivous when they walk in the door. Each one of those applicants will not only not be contributing to a productive society but now they will be demanding extra services of it.
tcolkett almost 12 years ago
As usual, the right wing responses on this page are insubstantial and resort to distortion and misdirection. Doughfoot’s parody above is a damn good representation of the mentality of these people. The real root of ALL the most important problems in our country today is the omnipresent, overbearing power of money on the system. Citizens United will eventually be recognized as a criminal attempt of the uber-rich to finally take total control of the worlds’ resources and to drive the masses into serfdom. There is some voting by dead people in this country. They vote for BOTH parties! But still, the level of corruption on that level is minuscule compared to the distortions caused by the manipulation of the electronic voting machines today. For some reason, the right doesn’t seem to mind THAT at all!
Mephistopheles almost 12 years ago
@Tom – Since we are going to talk in caricatures "forcing people into Serfdom. Let me be the first to point out that the Citizen’s United Decision (Heroic and Thoughtful) was to stop the needy from Enslaving the productive to pay for all of their needs and wants.
You don’t like that money can influence politicians. I get that though I think it is rampantly paranoid to assume they are using that power to force you into serfdom. What I see the Wealthy and corporations lobbying for is: Freedom from the demands of people who feel that capitalism treated them unfairly. There are plenty of people out there jumping on the bandwagon that the Rich are greedy and selfish and don’t care about their fellow man and should be forced to pay more taxes because they probably inherited it or earned it doing something unscrupulous.
I came from modest means but I worked hard in High School, College and Grad School. I then got a good job in my profession of choice and worked hard for my employer and in return my employer has paid me handsomely. Not because some Union thug threatened to hurt his family but because we have a good working relationship and we both benefit from our cooperation. But you want to stop people from being able to offer a different point of view don’t you? You can’t stand that someone is successfull doing something different then you prescribe.
Now I see whiners like you dismiss arguments that don’t align with your progressive school of thought as misdirection or distortion.
I want my company and other corpoations to have access to the media and political process equal to Unions and other groups. If Unions are allowed to tell everyone that workers are nothing without them. Why shouldn’t my corporation be able to tell workers “That we will be successful by providing a good product at a fair price”.
Freedom of Speech means you have the right to express your ideas and your neighbor has an equal right. You would like Freedom of speech to mean YOU have the right to express your ideas and Censor anyone who expresses and idea that is different from yours.
Grow up and recognize that the modern world is global. That means you have many opportunities to succeed not just in your local market but accross the world.
Mephistopheles almost 12 years ago
@Tom – Are you really going to Argue against Citizen’s United which was, effectively, a freedom of speech decision and then try to say that you aren’t against inhibiting a corporation or group other then your own to speak. You don’t get it both ways.
I guess from your progressive perspective; my views must seem outdated: I believe that Hard work, fiscal discipline, continously updating my job skills, constantly watching for opportunities to improve my self and my lot in life are the keys to success. I believe that those who work hard and apply themselves will be successful. I believe that those who idly sit by and wait for providence are almost surely destined for disappointment and failure.
It is interesting that you brought up Social Darwinism – It was Charles Darwin who famously said: Those that are most adaptable to change are the most likely to survive. The world is changing and those of us who are prepared are doing quite well. I welcome globalization because it is an opportunity to be enjoyed. You seem to hate it because it forces you to compete with someone willing to work harder for less pay.
To be clear – You do want to deny a voice to certain groups within society but you protest that you are in favor of free speech. Only liars fear the open discourse because the truth will eventually manifest itself.
Read Atlas Shrugged by Ayan Rand and maybe you will start to see the sad demise that befalls those who want to exalt dependency and ridicule successful people.
144 Cent almost 12 years ago
Clooney party favor.
STLDan almost 12 years ago
The mess Obama has us in? lololol Just like all other right wingers you ignore the ecomonic melt down brought on by.. wait for it… 8 YEARS OF REPUBLICAN RULE.. all of your sudden ameniasia is just hilarias!
Mephistopheles almost 12 years ago
Putting a Stigma on taking Welfare isn’t about revenge. It’s to make Welfare far less appealing then honest work. Today, too many people are quite content to sit on the couch and wait for the money to roll in from the government.
From a young age I worked in a grocery store and I remember the foodstamp recipients coming in on Saturday to buy Junk food and premade meals with their foodstamps which allowed them to spend their own cash on Cigarettes and booze. Then at the end of Saturday I would get my paycheck and notice the money taken out to support the government and these people. Now I watch my kids work hard at weekend and summer jobs and help them figure out their taxes so they know how much they have to pay to support these deadbeats. These are not annecdotes, these are real experiences by someone who has seen the corruption and abuse first hand.
As to looting – What do you think the health care mandate is intended to do. It is going to force employers to cover the cost of health care for their employees whether or not it makes financial sense to do so. More workers will be laid off to avoid the costs and we will have even more unemployment.
Are you really looking at the Job #s and agreeing with the Obama apologists that it would have been much worse if he hadn’t done what he did? I don’t agree with them. I think you are seeing the results of Mr. Obama’s well meaning but misguided attempt to make the job market more user friendly to those with outdated job skills.
69000 jobs/month for the last two months. That is abysmal by any standard.
I know many of you want to help the unemployed but you aren’t helping them by making them more expensive to employ. The best way to help the unemployed is to make them less expensive though: Infrastructure improvements, reducing minimum wage, removing burdensome regulations.
As an example; my dad, at 79, has a small business. He’s getting a little infirm and would like to hire a part time employee to help him with some of the more physically demanding work. The minute he hires an employee his costs go through the roof because he has to pay: Unemployment insurance, work with the SS administration and a whole host of other burdens. It makes more sense for him to close the business because the government will wipe out any value that employee would bring to the business. As long as the costs of employees are all forced on the business that hires them, the job market will continue to stagnate.
Mephistopheles almost 12 years ago
@GreggW – Why Thank you. If you read your Goethe you will learn that Mephistopheles was a handsome, educated, well spoken man with Courtly manners.
I’m showing you how the US can regain supremecy in the real world. You want us to regain supremecy in the LaLa land you would like to exist. You know the real world is out there but if you accept that reality you will have to deal with it. And many are not yet ready to deal with reality. So go ahead and dream of a world where all outcomes are equal regardless of effort. I’m sure it’s a nice dream. But when you wake up you will be back in the real world and someone will have taken your job because you weren’t busy defending it by figuring out how to work smarter, faster, and harder.
Grow up – Name calling might be fun but it doesn’t move the discourse forward.
Dtroutma almost 12 years ago
I remember my brother coming home to state the “Brown people (Pat that is!)” were paying folks on the street to vote. I went over to check it out. It was the NIXON PEOPLE paying $5 a head! BUT the press did end up having Dick Nixon to kick around, again.
Simple fact, vote buying has been going on for a long time. The difference is that “Citizens United” decision grants HUGE power to “NON-citizens”, as in Corporations, to influence the vote. BTW, all the unions combined can’t match what just Koch Industries can come up with, from “pocket change”. But I don’t think individuals, corporations, OR unions, should be able to SECRETLY contribute such huge sums of money.
Mephistopheles almost 12 years ago
So Mr. Gaunt. Are you saying that becuase your Kidneys don’t work at 100% you are entitled to the fruits of another worker’s labors? I have a guy that I work with that is on dialysis every few days and he doesn’t expect everyone else to cover him.
I don’t have X-ray eyes but I can see that you feel the country owes you that money.
joe vignone almost 12 years ago
90% of Wall St., Big Oil, Big Pharm and of course Military contractors’ money goes to elect Republicants. Just follow the money. At least the Dims throw a few bucks to the masses.
Breeana almost 12 years ago
Are you saying that Mint RoMoney is paying off Obama?
Breeana almost 12 years ago
Then why the off shore accounts and a 13% tax rate?
pam Miner almost 12 years ago
I don’t know of anyone who thinks that “citizens United” is a good thing. Politicians spend nearly 50% of their time money-raising!! The toally unaccountable money being poured into both sides is something of nightmares.. Theses donors can even be other countries. If we all could agree to get "citizens United overturned, then we could feel good about it and it could be the one little thing that begins to heal our nation. There are in most cities and towns have petitions for everyone to sign. If you are tired of all the fighting, go find (or start one) a petition to sign!
Anna12 almost 12 years ago
said
Mephistopheles almost 12 years ago
@Pete Rogan – Regardless of the Supreme Court Decision I will not wish for Violence upon them. Those who foment violence should isolated from the rest of society.
I think that they should strike down Obama care but even if they ultimately determine that it is Constitutional I wouldn’t think that violence should befall them.
You are wrong – Money doesn’t say shut up. It provides opportunitites to have your thoughts communicated across the country. Good Ideas only survive if they can be communicated.