@Rad-ish – Rarely do you and I find ourselves on the same side of the argument but I have to agree. This was a terrible decision pushed through by a group of Christians.
26 years ago I stood at my commencement ceremonies with two good friends who were both Muslims. They, too, were forced to bow their heads while a Minister or Priest (I don’t remember which) invoked the ceremonies and called on Jesus to watch over us all. And this was at a Secular, state-run college. It was uncomfortable for them and me.
Here we are, 26 years later, and the Supreme Court is essentially saying – It’s OK for you to force non-believers to stand by respectfully while you delay a government meeting to have a conversation with the diety of your choice.
Roanoke County, Va., is already moving to ban non-Christian prayers before its board meetings. I won’t be shocked when other states and counties start following suit. Thanks, Supreme Court.
Nothing could promote atheism more than this decision. I am a Christian and I am appalled by this insult to my beliefs. The “honorable, the Supreme Court” of the United States has just declared, as official and mandatory doctrine, that prayer is nothing but empty ceremony and our corporate masters can require whatever they want because we have no right to our own religion. And because it is ultimately based on a faith statement that can neither be verified nor falsified by empiricalevidence, atheism is a religion too.
If you are a true Christian, you should be following the teachings of Jesus Christ on all things, and that certainly includes something as important to Jesus and God the Father as prayer. So, just what does Jesus say about prayer? How about:
Matthew 6, versus 5-8:
"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. 7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. "
I think this is very clear on just what Jesus Christ thought of the efficacy of public prayer. And, as most public functions today are indeed public, then by Jesus himself such prayer is at least not affective with God, and so relatively unimportant with God. So, just why the big battle over something that should not mean anything to we Christians anyway?
Is it not better to let each person pray to his version of God in a way that makes that person happy? Why force anyone to pray in any particular manner. Heck, if a person does not want to pray at all because that person is an atheist, then why force them in to any kind of a general prayer?
For instance, when I go out to eat at a restaurant, I briefly pause before eating my meal to give thanks to God (my provider) for that meal, and to ask God to bless it for the betterment of my body. I do not do this aloud as there is no need to impress others about my being in any way devout in my religious beliefs. If I do this when I do something as important as having a meal, then why can I not also so pause before a public meeting of any kind, and do the same. God who listens to my every prayer and need, and hears in secret, would not be offended by others not being forced to join in anyway. So, just what is the big deal about public prayer, if God does not care, then why should I??
@Franknason – I think other’s have responded sufficiently to your claims that I am handing out excrement. But let me go just a little further.
I don’t want a city, county, state, or federal minister invoking his god on my behalf before a secular meeting. I would consider council meetings, graduations, etc. to be secular.
If the group wants to suggest a moment of silence where all can: meditate, pray, center themselves, whatever. I don’t have a problem with that. But at the point where the minister is telling Jews and Muslims that all things are possible through Jesus Christ at their Graduation – I find that offensive. Sure they could avoid the rabid Christian Indoctrination by not going to the ceremony but that would deprive them of the honor of being recognized by their school.
There is no reason that the rest of us should have to listen to their superstition before a Secular meeting.
I think it was said above that this harkens to a time when most of the US citizens were Christians. Well the times they are a changing. And in this respect for the better.
The First amendment protects us from State Run Religion. The supreme court just deprived us of some of that protection.
Agreed, but only to a point. Some people are born into families that practice other religions or none at all, and they choose to convert to Christianity. However, most Christians have been born into a Christian family. I do not debate that there may be a time when one must commit to being a Christian, showing the “choice”. But I will also respectfully point out that babies are baptized into the faith and have no capacity to make that choice at that age. Your distinction does not invalidate my bigger point.
@Tigger – Actually; there in lies the problem. I am not free to not be involved in their prayer.
Imagine, if you will, several council members that don’t want to indulge in prayer. Now imagine they carry on a quiet conversation while the pious indulge themselves. They would be considered quite rude by people with whom they need to conduct business. Essentially they are forced to spend their time indulging the pray-ers. And having been at meetings where these prayers can go on tediously long I can see why this is not an acceptable decision.
If the board members want to pray before a meeting. Why don’t those who want to pray do it before they ever show up in the council meeting. Those who want to get down to business can carry on discussions in the council chambers while the pious go to an antechamber, or private office, or some other non-public place to have their chat with god?
It certainly has been an eclectic court. Were I back in 8th grade with my American History teacher, I can see us spending lots of time trying to decipher if they’re sound or batcrap crazy.
Can you even find a post of mine where I have stated in any way that I denied the existence of Jesus Christ? You on the other hand, at the very least are well known on these boards for stretching the truth to fit your own ideology, in which Jesus when he was here would not have had anything to do with!
In fact, it was the very conservative Judaic religious leaders that wanted him crucified by the Roman leadership of the time. I would bet (knowing just how you post here) that you would even qualify as one of those ultra conservative Judaic leaders!! May God take true mercy upon your soul!
Mephistopheles almost 10 years ago
@Rad-ish – Rarely do you and I find ourselves on the same side of the argument but I have to agree. This was a terrible decision pushed through by a group of Christians.
26 years ago I stood at my commencement ceremonies with two good friends who were both Muslims. They, too, were forced to bow their heads while a Minister or Priest (I don’t remember which) invoked the ceremonies and called on Jesus to watch over us all. And this was at a Secular, state-run college. It was uncomfortable for them and me.
Here we are, 26 years later, and the Supreme Court is essentially saying – It’s OK for you to force non-believers to stand by respectfully while you delay a government meeting to have a conversation with the diety of your choice.
Shame on them all!!!!
franknason almost 10 years ago
i’m with Clark; and nobody forced anyone to bow their heads. What a crock Meph. What is wrong with a little respect for other’s beliefs?
Christopher Shea almost 10 years ago
Roanoke County, Va., is already moving to ban non-Christian prayers before its board meetings. I won’t be shocked when other states and counties start following suit. Thanks, Supreme Court.
magicwalnut Premium Member almost 10 years ago
This is merely an anachronism harking back to the days when most Americans were Christians….Nothing is as slow to move as a republican…
hippogriff almost 10 years ago
Nothing could promote atheism more than this decision. I am a Christian and I am appalled by this insult to my beliefs. The “honorable, the Supreme Court” of the United States has just declared, as official and mandatory doctrine, that prayer is nothing but empty ceremony and our corporate masters can require whatever they want because we have no right to our own religion. And because it is ultimately based on a faith statement that can neither be verified nor falsified by empiricalevidence, atheism is a religion too.
frodo1008 almost 10 years ago
If you are a true Christian, you should be following the teachings of Jesus Christ on all things, and that certainly includes something as important to Jesus and God the Father as prayer. So, just what does Jesus say about prayer? How about:
Matthew 6, versus 5-8:
"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. 7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. "
I think this is very clear on just what Jesus Christ thought of the efficacy of public prayer. And, as most public functions today are indeed public, then by Jesus himself such prayer is at least not affective with God, and so relatively unimportant with God. So, just why the big battle over something that should not mean anything to we Christians anyway?
Is it not better to let each person pray to his version of God in a way that makes that person happy? Why force anyone to pray in any particular manner. Heck, if a person does not want to pray at all because that person is an atheist, then why force them in to any kind of a general prayer?
For instance, when I go out to eat at a restaurant, I briefly pause before eating my meal to give thanks to God (my provider) for that meal, and to ask God to bless it for the betterment of my body. I do not do this aloud as there is no need to impress others about my being in any way devout in my religious beliefs. If I do this when I do something as important as having a meal, then why can I not also so pause before a public meeting of any kind, and do the same. God who listens to my every prayer and need, and hears in secret, would not be offended by others not being forced to join in anyway. So, just what is the big deal about public prayer, if God does not care, then why should I??
Mephistopheles almost 10 years ago
@Franknason – I think other’s have responded sufficiently to your claims that I am handing out excrement. But let me go just a little further.
I don’t want a city, county, state, or federal minister invoking his god on my behalf before a secular meeting. I would consider council meetings, graduations, etc. to be secular.
If the group wants to suggest a moment of silence where all can: meditate, pray, center themselves, whatever. I don’t have a problem with that. But at the point where the minister is telling Jews and Muslims that all things are possible through Jesus Christ at their Graduation – I find that offensive. Sure they could avoid the rabid Christian Indoctrination by not going to the ceremony but that would deprive them of the honor of being recognized by their school.
There is no reason that the rest of us should have to listen to their superstition before a Secular meeting.
I think it was said above that this harkens to a time when most of the US citizens were Christians. Well the times they are a changing. And in this respect for the better.
The First amendment protects us from State Run Religion. The supreme court just deprived us of some of that protection.
I say again Shame on them!!!!
I Play One On TV almost 10 years ago
Agreed, but only to a point. Some people are born into families that practice other religions or none at all, and they choose to convert to Christianity. However, most Christians have been born into a Christian family. I do not debate that there may be a time when one must commit to being a Christian, showing the “choice”. But I will also respectfully point out that babies are baptized into the faith and have no capacity to make that choice at that age. Your distinction does not invalidate my bigger point.
Mephistopheles almost 10 years ago
@Tigger – Actually; there in lies the problem. I am not free to not be involved in their prayer.
Imagine, if you will, several council members that don’t want to indulge in prayer. Now imagine they carry on a quiet conversation while the pious indulge themselves. They would be considered quite rude by people with whom they need to conduct business. Essentially they are forced to spend their time indulging the pray-ers. And having been at meetings where these prayers can go on tediously long I can see why this is not an acceptable decision.
If the board members want to pray before a meeting. Why don’t those who want to pray do it before they ever show up in the council meeting. Those who want to get down to business can carry on discussions in the council chambers while the pious go to an antechamber, or private office, or some other non-public place to have their chat with god?
wiatr almost 10 years ago
It certainly has been an eclectic court. Were I back in 8th grade with my American History teacher, I can see us spending lots of time trying to decipher if they’re sound or batcrap crazy.
frodo1008 almost 10 years ago
Can you even find a post of mine where I have stated in any way that I denied the existence of Jesus Christ? You on the other hand, at the very least are well known on these boards for stretching the truth to fit your own ideology, in which Jesus when he was here would not have had anything to do with!
In fact, it was the very conservative Judaic religious leaders that wanted him crucified by the Roman leadership of the time. I would bet (knowing just how you post here) that you would even qualify as one of those ultra conservative Judaic leaders!! May God take true mercy upon your soul!
reynard61 almost 10 years ago
Unfortunately, what the Court gives to the governed can’t be shown on a Family-friendly website…
frodo1008 almost 10 years ago
If you can not be more civil, or even use proper English, then might I suggest that you just take your hand away from your keyboard!