Tom Toles for January 16, 2013

That is out of proportion…the trillions we owe can’t be reached ruth a little ladder.

Even Dick Cheney was not totally incorrect for once when he stated “Deficits do not matter”.Hey, even an analog clock that does not run tells the correct time twice each day!

And exactly why would they not matter?

Western civilization has indeed been running up a high debt level for about the last three hundred years or so, well before the US was even a separate country. Could this in turn have a possible correlation to the fact that the same western civilization has created the greatest standard of living for average (economically at least) people in the entire history of the world? Mmmmm….could be!

Also, just what is the over all worth of the US Government anyway?

I have seen figures that state that the over all worth of the US Government runs from anywhere in the neighborhood of at least $100 trillion dollars, all the way up to over $200 trillion dollars. The US government owns more than 40% of ALL the land within the borders of this country alone, what would even just that be worth?

So, if you were a loaning agency, would you loan $10,000 to someone that had a net worth of over $100,000? You better bet your bottom booties that you would!!

And just where were all of these current Republican deficit hawks when the last administration was running up a debt ?

Besides which, raising the debt ceiling is just making it possible to pay off money that has already been authorized by Congress (whether a Congress of a Republican majority, of one of a Democratic majority, does not even matter in this case).

If the US had such a bad debt, then just why every time the treasury has a bond sale does every other country on this planet jump at the very chance of buying some?

In short, I really, really do grow tired of all the pessimism exhibited by some our more ultra conservatives on these boards. Especially as I and millions upon millions of other seniors worked hard all of our lives to provide the greatest county imaginable to those some complainers!

That was meant to be “country” not “county”!

“…it was Dems who raised Taxes on SS…”Democrats?.“The payroll tax holiday was intended to be temporary and there is strong bipartisan support to let that tax provision expire,” said Sen. Orrin of Utah, the top Republican on the Senate Finance Committee. “The continued extension of a temporary payroll tax holiday has serious long-term implications for Social Security and, frankly, it’s not even clear that it has helped to boost our ailing economy.”.“There’s a growing consensus that Congress and the president can’t continue to divert such a critical revenue stream from Social Security,” said Rep. Kevin Brady of Texas, a senior Republican on the tax-writing House Ways and Means Committee. “More and more Americans understand that that payroll tax cut, while politically unappealing, is endangering Social Security.”

Larry Summers, Obama’s former economic adviser, is a lonely voice in Washington calling to extend the payroll tax cut. He said in a recent speech that the economy is too fragile to reduce workers’ incomes..Obama pushed for the tax cut in late 2010 as a way to increase workers’ take-home pay to help boost consumer spending and provide a spark for the economy. Economists were divided on the economic benefits. Many said it probably helped increase consumer spending but there was no consensus on the magnitude..The initial tax cut was for only a year, and many Republicans in Congress wanted to let it lapse at the end of 2011. But Obama and Democratic lawmakers successfully fought to extend it through 2012..This is all from this article.http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2012/10/21/taxes-2013-163m-workers/1647251/

And we all know that the thing about taking 500B from Medicare is a lie.

The Fed spends 24% of the money on Defense, 24% on Health Care, 23% on Pensions, 11% on Welfare (mostly “food stamps” and unemployment benefits), 7% on Interest on the Debt, and 11% on EVERYTHING ELSE. -— The artificial “Debt Ceiling” will go up every year until the budget is balanced. Right now we would have to cut 30% of the total expenditure in order to balance the account. Unless additional revenue is raised, in which case we could cut less, though deep cutting would still be necessary. Since pensions and interest are obligations that can’t be evaded without giving up any pretense to honesty or good faith, that means the 30% would have to come from the remaining 70%. If we don’t cut the defense budget, the 30% will have to come out of the remaining 46%. We can neither cut, grow, nor tax our way out of this. That’s the truth of the matter. If we do all three, and are very careful about how we do it, we might be able to move forward without turning ourselves into a “third world” nation.

@ Rightisright – the stimulus was mishandled by incompetent and bipartisan greed. The debt ceiling is a choice, not a necessity. Republicans, in order to get what they demand, are willing to do great harm to our immediate future and saying they are trying to save our future. Wrongiswrong.@ Sr Nonliberal – Don’t borrow money to fix the roof now, just let the rain come in and destroy things inside the house? Money, like the debt ceiling, is a simple concept. It represents an exchange of good and services. As long as we can give oil, natural gas, and food to countries, our credit is good. As long as we show character and good intentions, our credit rating won’t be dropped by raising the debt ceiling and interest rates won’t be raised on US borrowing. We don’t need a ladder, we simply need a table and chairs with people willing to work for the country instead of their party.@ Robert Landers – I’m certain diplomats trying to persuade foreign leaders feel your pain. We’re trying to get our neighbors to agree to help shovel the streets. One side doesn’t want to raise taxes to pay for shoveling the roads even though it means people can’t get to work, schools, or even hospitals. The other side has shown too much willingness to overspend in order to keep the roads clear and, to be honest, spend money on ‘aesthetics’ for which taxes probably should not have been used. I personally blame waste and a lack of people to inspect and enforce regs and politicians allowing lobbyists to write bills. Do not let the extremists among the conservatives blind you to the many thoughtful and moderate conservative voices among us. And be ready to give and thoughtfully take on these issues. You’re a good writer and help raise the debate.@ onguard – I’ve read many of your posts. You should provide websites, objective sites, backing your claims. Your accusations are nuanced and debatable, at best.@ Redkaycei, Saywhatwhat, & Doughfoot – thank you for the tone and content of your comments.Respectfully,C.

Wow, right guard. Three lies in three lines? The SS tax cut ending was a Republican idea, Obama didn’t feel it was worth fighting. 500B is Medicare was proven false last fall. And the pill thing is pure right wing hate fantasy — Death Panels were the lie of the year back in 2010. Are there no actual TRUE statements that support your position? Perhaps you should examine your position.

Nantucket, you know the gullible are rarely swayed by facts.

A few comments from one of our founders. Their words have not diminished with age, only become more prophetic.

“There are two ways to conquer and enslave a country. One is by the sword. The other is by debt.”John Adams

“…Cities may be rebuilt, and a People reduced to Poverty may acquire fresh Property: But a Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty once lost is lost forever. When the People once surrendered their share in the Legislature, and their Right of defending the Limitations upon the Government, and of resisting every Encroachment upon them, they can never regain it.”John Adams

“All the perplexities, confusion, and distress in America arise, not from want of honor or virtue, but from the downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit, and circulation.”John Adams

“I’ve often said that we must stop spending more money than we make. “Try running your household that way and see what happens”, I’ll often say.”The best analogy I can make is that in fact, most households do take on enormous debt in the form of a mortgage. Most people have a mortgage debt that is much more than their annual gross income. But, it makes sense if you think the value of the house will go up in the long term. It makes more sense if you are young enough to assume that you have many productive years ahead & will see growth in your income. The BIG difference between household debt & government debt, is that eventually you will get old. You need to worry about the day you will retire & your income will drop. But, during your prime working years, that mortgage is not seen as alarming.A government can run a deficit indefinitely as long as GDP growth keeps up. Unless you assume that we are going to see little growth for decades, eventually the debt we are taking on now will become much less burdensome than it seems at the moment. We do need to address the long term growth of the deficit, but any immediate, drastic action will likely put us back into a recession. Part of our problems is that Republicans were optimistic on growth in the 2000’s. The assumed high growth would be continuous. That’s why Cheney claimed, “Deficits don’t matter.” We should have been a little more pessimistic & kept a low deficit until we hit a recession & needed to run a deficit. That is when you need to assert long term optimism & believe growth will eventually resume.

I favor using Revenues to pay for: Interest on the Debt, Pensions, Payroll, and direct payments to Individuals (Unemployment, Food Stamps, etc.) Everything else should be divided into 3 categories: Bipartisan Spending, Republican Projects, and Democrat Projects.Set up 2 Private Foundations- One funded by Democrat contributions and one funded by Republican contributions. We raise money for PACs. We are capable of doing this. Then R can decide amongst themselves what projects to pay for and likewise, the D. If there is not enough money in the Foundation, projects do not get money.

In actuality, the federal government is worth far more than even just the land itself. And if you were going to use family finances as an example, would you have to sell your main asset, such as your house, in order to buy a new car?

And then there is the US military. For instance the navy has at least some twelve aircraft carrier groups worth some $10 billion each group, for a total of over $120 billion. Or how about the Air Forces 20 or so B-2 bombers worth over $2 billion per each bomber?

Now, I am not stating that these assets have to be sold off to cover the US National Debt, anymore than you have to sell off the collateral on a loan to you as an individual.

Also, the projected deficit for the year 2013 is now under $1 trillion, and the projected deficit for 2016 is just about $500 billion, which is just about what the deficits were before the Great Recession of 2007 through 2010.

Admittedly, this is slow progress, but it is progress. And if the economy is allowed to get better (and a great help in that is not to ruin the credit of the country by not paying even the loans we have already incurred) then the projected deficits get even better.

I thank you for asking reasonable questions in a civil manner. Does that at least help in clearing up your question?

Have A Great Day!

It just seemed relevant at the time, thought provoking for someone posting 250 years ago. I am neither republican or democrat. i am a Libertarian and hold Bush to the same level of contempt that I do Obama. There is little difference between them when all is said and done. The wars continue, our privacy rights deteriorate more, government spending increases, the size of government increases, they are all the same in the end…

The difference between he US, Greece, Spain, et.al. is that avoiding taxes is a religion in those countries, as it is with certain individuals and corporations here. I love how people like Blankfein can say WE can’t afford entitlements while HE spends 10+ million on a house on Long Island two days later!