Matt Davies for August 10, 2012

I haven’t seen the latest “GOP English only bill”, but have to say that ALL “official” documents, and signage in the U.S. should be “English only”. Vietnamese, Italians, Germans, even the French, have to learn “our” language to get along. Those who do NOT learn enough English to “get by” in society, do NOT “get by” in the society if they don’t understand it’s basic language. English is spoken in every airline control tower in the world. English IS the language of commerce around the world, as recent “activity” in Japan has shown.

Culturally, it DOES need to be recognized that in Southwest, with many cities named in Spanish, and recognizing the Spanish DID settle a good deal of the U.S. centuries BEFORE the “English speakers”.

But the language of prior “conservative” attempts to write legislation, have shown a clear bigotry, period. That is NOT what such a bill should accomplish.

As the Continental Congress DID establish that English should be the national language, NOT German, there is precedent.

Being bilingual is a great thing for individuals. For countries, not so much. -That said, I’d like to see the substance of the bill. If it’s fair and even-handed, I’d likely support it, even though I know it would not pass.

BTW, ALL Americans would benefit by being at least to some degree bi-lingual, if not more. When we don’t regularly use languages, and get older, vocabulary does become a problem, but: Latin, Japanese, German, Vietnamese, and some Spanish, I"ve been exposed to and at times could at least understand some conversation. My son’s English improved considerably when he learned Mandarin, German, Spanish, Russian, Serbo-Croatian, and a smattering of Arabic. The military DOES proved some “cultural expansion”.

If Americans INSIST on “English only” as THEIR only exposure, they’re losing out on a lot. Well, it does explain their hostility toward all other cultures they refuse to “understand”.

said " I learned it because I wanted to live here and be successful"And new immigrants, and old, will have to learn Spanish as well in America’s future in order to be successful. You have a head start, lucky you.

If we become a bilingual country, I see little harm in that. I think it would be great if most of the U.S. were fluent in more than one language.WRT English only, the bill isn’t really necessary. First generation immigrants nearly always continue to speak their original language, but by the second generation nearly everyone speaks English. It’s worked this way in nearly every wave of immigration from non-English-speaking countries. Italians, Vietnamese, Chinese, Homng, German, European Jews (Yiddish), etc. During those prior waves, similar zenophobic responses to these peoples occurred. Patience zenophobes, English is the dominant language of the land, it’s not going anywhere. (Bonus points: due to the Hundred Years’ War with France our “English” is riddled with non-Anglo-Saxon words. Shall we purge our language of that foreign influence, or enjoy the additional richness it adds to our expression?)

My apologies for misspelling Hmong.

If we’re going to make English the official language, could we all please learn to use “supposed to” rather than “suppose to”?

You have a very active imagination if you think what I said does any of the things that you ascribe to it. Your argument is prima facie without foundation. My own ancestors (great grandparents) came to this country not speaking English. Their young children learned English and their parents’ language. By the time you get to my parents’ generation, no one spoke the original language. It’s a situation that’s been repeated for many groups without their being consigned to a “slave” class.

Belgium, Switzerland, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Canada, are all officially multilingual. India has twenty three official languages. The official language of Ireland is Irish, although only a minority of the population speak it.

English isn’t even the official language of the United Kingdom. As Prime Minister, David Lloyd George would sometimes give speeches to Parlaiment in Welsh, knowing full well that most of his audience (particularly members of the Opposition) wouldn’t understand a word he said.

Yes, it behooves anybody in the US to learn English. And it behooves anybody in the Southwest US to learn Spanish. If you live in San Francisco (as I do), it’s useful to know Cantonese (although I don’t). Where you have large immigrant populations, it’s just common sense to have street signs, public notices, and yes ballots in the languages of the people who actually live there.

It is often the case that those that need to learn another language the most, cannot, not “won’t”. I’m presuming migrants with a professional background are not the ones folks are complaining about. They typically can and do learn the host nation’s primary language. Like Jeff Kiser.As someone whose mother-tongue is not English but started speaking it fluently from the age of 5, I was often annoyed and sometimes ashamed even, when some of my compatriots could not speak English. My father would often be called on to provide translations or act as an interpreter for job contracts, interviews, doctor’s appointments and school meetings for others. If my parents could learn a new foreign language (my father had learnt French in school as his 2nd language, not English) why couldn’t others make the effort? It was only until very recently that I realised why it was. Quite simply many do not have the “tools” to learn a new language. They don’t have the education. They haven’t been taught to be students.Sure, necessity is a great enabler or teacher but for many, even if it is to their benefit, they won’t be able to. I’m not just speaking of unskilled migrants, also of semi-skilled or skilled artisans. Unskilled migrants are more than likely to have had very little or no formal education from their native countries i.e. some are functionally illiterate in their own mother-tongues, never-mind expecting them to learn an entirely new language. Many also do not have the time even if there are free language classes available in their community; they juggle several jobs to make ends meet.Many migrant artisans learnt their skills in vocational schools, institutes or apprenticeships, not academic schools; and therefore lack tools to learn more academic subjects, like a language.. I’ve spoken to many in my community and discovered how afraid they are to “return” to a class-room. They regard educated people as a higher class, an elite and have no confidence in being able to go “back to school”. This self-imposed barrier is what needs to be broken. They need to be shown they can learn a new language despite lacking formal education. Until then, they will continue to isolate themselves in their own communities and remain dependant on compatriots who do speak the language (often fleecing the less able).Adding another barrier like making compulsory a national language isn’t the answer. What needs to be promoted is more Education and providing the opportunities to access that education.I wouldn’t worry about 2nd/3rd generation off-spring of migrants. They assimilate automatically without coercion of any sort. However, if they come from a deprived family that doesn’t speak the host nation’s primary language, they’re also more likely not to speak the host nation’s primary language very well either. Vicious circle.

A note on “slavery”. We had neighbors move in across the street when we were in Arizona. They were from Boston, and the wife was third generation born in Boston. She spoke not a word of English, only Italian, and THAT is how her husband kept her isolated as his “spouse”. We often forget these enclaves exist in the U.S., and they aren’t all the “Spanish speakers” folks, and especially certain politicians, would have us believe. Speaking the language of the nation you live in, IS critical, at least to the extent of carrying on a conversation, and understanding basic functions of “your world”.

DrCanuck, last I heard, which was a long time ago, Canada was a bilingual country, english and French. I think back in the 70s or so there was a separatist movement for Quebec to secede. Or something like that.-I haven’t heard of or thought about bilingual issues in Canada for a long time.-Is Canada still bilingual, and how have they dealt with the issue?-Are there any lessons for America?

Thanks for the thougthful post, JK. I agree with the substance of all of it (except that first paragraph, but that’s kind of off topic)-I think the bilingual education was a good concept, but was hijacked by people who wanted to make latinos into a faction, rather than have them go through the melting pot process. I think they should melt. I think everybody should melt.But then, I believe in racial integration, as well.-I would also support getting rid of bi-lingual (really multi-lingual) ballots. To say that someone is disenfranchised by not having ballots printed in their native language is wrong, IMO. I mean, does this mean that if there is even one citizen, say an Elbonian, who doesn’t speak English, that an Elbonian language ballot — and voter’s guide — has to be produced?-Not that I think it should be banned or anything like that, but I think one of the greatest deterrents to melting is foreign language TV, which is a disincentive to learning English, IMO.

A lovely lady from Brazil joined our dojo and mentioned to me how funny (yet telling) she views the following inquiry [launched by our intelligent majority ’muricans]—-

“How do you say (fill in any word or phrase) in Brazilian?”

Good Grief.

I really don’t care about your “white man’s burden” history. But your point is well taken, it will take a generation to rise out of the ghetto when people can speak English before there is success. Am I the only here who finds that an appalling goal for minorities who come to this nation? Apparently for Craig Linder it is to be celebrated.Jeff, I don’t know why you’re so angry, but your ire is misdirected. Read what I originally wrote carefully. All I was arguing was that there is no need to make English the official language of the United States. The vast majority of U.S. citizens speak English, and even without government intervention, the normal course of assimilation leads to English being used. Historically and in the present case, the push for making English the official language of the U.S. is largely driven by fears that English will be lost because it will be overwhelmed by the native tongue of some immigrant group. Hence the xenophobic motivation for the law. I applaud helping immigrants learn English. Legislation to provide education for learning English is something I could get behind. Learning a new language in adulthood is very difficult for most people, so anything we can do to help them speak English better and earlier is great. I speak Spanish tolerably well, and I know from personal experience how stupid it makes someone feel when they have something they want to communicate, but just can’t find the words to do it.

Yup. That happens when one is so ready to take offense rather than read for meaning and context.

said, putting words into Omq’s mouth, "Poor people aren’t stupid, poor immigrants are not inherently inferior. "You called them stupid, you called them inferior. I said no such thing nor did I even imply it. I said they often (not all) lack education, the “tool”, the enabler or what often provides confidence. My entire post promotes education and providing conditions in which immigrants can access it. You wear blinkers when you read?

suggested I believe the term is “pode crer” which is like “Can you believe it”, No, you believe wrong. What you said translates as “You can believe it” or colloquially simply an agreement to what was said by someone else , like “right on” or “agreed” or simply said with a nod.“Good grief” in English is a statement of disbelief. In Portuguese, both in Portugal & Brazil and other Portuguese speaking countries, more likely “Cruz-credo!” would be said.However, you missed the point of Zekedog’s anecdote. Zekedog said “Good grief”, not the Brazilian lady. Whoosh, right over your head.Know what I say? : “Cruz credo!” oder “Du meine Güte!” :-|

[You know, when I corrected your German the other day, I didn’t even get a Danke! Ich bin tief enttäuscht. :-( ]

In your own wordsScience Magazine is a nice easy read, maybe a half step higher than Scientific American, indeed it is an opinion magazine more than it is research for peer review.You’re either simply a troll or a fool, possibly both. You’re clearly ignorant enough not to realize that Science is the premier science journal in the United States and one of the top two peer-reviewed science journals in the world (the two being Nature and Science). All scientists are delighted if their work is accepted for publication there.You should quit while you’re behind.

claimed that [liberals] “scream racismHmm. I don’t see race being mentioned in my posts on this thread. However, you say, and I quote: ”Such a view is patently offensive, and racial.“You bring up race. What on earth for? I make no mention of any immigrant’s race or even nationality. That was purposefully done because this is something that happens in any host nation where immigrants can be from anywhere the world over. I mentioned my family were recent emigrants, I’m an emigrant, 3 times over. I include myself. Why would that be racial? Which race? My race? What is my race? Are immigrants in the US only of a particular race? Thought not.You said, ”Your statement that somehow they don’t have the tools is the equivalent of saying they don’t have the ability"Careful, “ability” can be used in several contexts. Ability can be learnt, taught or acquired. It can also mean aptitude which is an inherent quality . I think you’ve latched onto only the latter meaning. That is not what I mean when I say some migrants are not “able” to learn the language. I’m saying that by not having a formal education, it creates a barrier they’re not able to overcome in order to learn a new language. Being uneducated does not mean being stupid or inferior as you seem to infer. Further in my post I state: “They need to be shown they can learn a new language despite lacking formal education.” Where am I saying they can never learn a language? I am saying that many without an education lack the “tools” to learn. A “tool” can even be confidence. In my post I urge and promote the idea that migrants be provided with not just education, but also accessibility to that education.I’m learning a new language, too. I know what it takes. I’m just surprised and disappointed you haven’t replied to the posts where I correct your German or Portuguese. A true student of languages, such as you like to claim, would appreciate these corrections and at least acknowledge them.

You may now continue to avoid the subject matter and yell at me, the points I made are valid.—Jeff KiserA textbook case of projection of the first order.

Projection – a psychological defense mechanism where a person subconsciously denies his or her own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, usually to other people.—Wade, Tavris “Psychology” Sixth Edition

You really do need to read for meaning, not a preconceived mindset…BTW, I’ve spoken to our lovely martial arts student about her equally lovely language.Sorta sad, me knowing that simple factoid (her native tongue) scored points with her—-she really is perplexed by our GREAT nation’s collective stupidity…

Be careful there. I’ve been known to cite references as old as Herodotus and the Bible. I don’t claim to have been their contemporaries. :-)

You continue to abase yourself for all to read. Your posts have no substance. One is a childish, “But you do it too!” without even bothering to indicate to what you are referring. The other takes a swipe at my providing sources for what I say without your bothering to, in any way, demonstrate that those sources are incorrect or suspect.

“grammatical nazi way.”I call Godwin’s Law!“The internet does not give you every inflection function of slang within cultures as diverse as Brazils”Jeff, não procurei na net o significado de “cruz credo”, nem tão pouco o significado de “pode crer!” Eu sou portugûes. Estou lhe dizer que está erado – aceite de bom grado.Your German error wasn’t grammatical but it leads me to think you’re not German if you cannot tell the difference between “city”& “state”.“You apparently did not notice the Brazilian who made the statement regarding the silliness of an official language, used the official language of Brazil make the statement.”Qual Brasileira? Jeff, lê outra vez o que Zekedog escreveu.

"Immigrants tend to be a minority group coming up from the southern nations. “I made no reference to any nation or race yet you persist in doing so;…yeah, well, I’m Southern in more ways than one. I even now live in the South East of England. Once a Southerner, always a Southerner, eh? ;-)” have heard the subtle racist disdain from your type all too often."Ich muss Südlicher Selbsthass haben. :-(But I like your characterisation of immigrants tending to be from “southern nations”, whatever that means. I thought I was being patronising but you take the biscuit.“While I appreciate the back pedalling,”- sigh I did no such thing (although I just did do a 50 mile run on my bike); Know what, I suggest you head back to a language class and pick up English basics once more; you seem to be lacking in comprehension. I worry about the advice you say you provide other immigrants reading contracts and what-not. :|

om Q R is too gentile for either labelHow do you know omQ R is a gentile? ;-)

^^ :-) I suppose I could be a gentile although one of my surnames is possibly Sephardic. mehGentle? sigh Thanks! But nice guys always finish last.I don’t now expect Kiser to return to this thread so it is a pity that perhaps he won’t respond to my sniggering at his words that there is no class division in the USA.

Thanks y’all for some very pleasant humor.

A friend of my mother spoke 9 languages and her mind was sharp and clear until she died in her late 80’s. The JAMA says speaking more than one language helps stave off alzheimers and keeps the mind working at a higher level. I speak a little German and Spanish and people who are native to those languages appreciate the effort of a person trying to speak to them in their own language. That said, it is not finanically practical for a Government to publish rules, regulations, and textbooks in more than one language. There is also a need for people to be able to communicate with each other for the benefit of the community, county, town, state, and nation. I would rather see more localities providing classes teaching English to immigrants(and how to read to english speaking citizens who can’t) instead of spending even more money on textbooks teaching the same material in different languages. In the final analysis, language is a states rights issue and it is up to the voters of each state to decide what is right for them on this matter.Respectfully,C.