Ted Rall for May 25, 2009

First panel: general who looks like Abraham Lincoln, the wartime president, demonstrates prevalent U.S. media attitude of concern for our people,’s survival, health, safety and feelings, and utter lack of same for those other people’s survival, health, safety, or feelings. Second, third, and fourth, Afghan guy shown darker, absurdly affectionate towards U.S. military personnel. Colbert-style fatuous jingoism with unexplained use of “gay” as pejorative, either in the fatuous pose or not. Afghan guy gives U.S. soldier a new car. What I perceive as outrageous exaggeration might be an accurate portrayal of U.S. attitudes that it satirizes, might not be outrageous exaggeration; plus an effective assertion of the continued existence of U.S. “torture prison”(s) that I want to believe are gone.

Um, I think the guy in the first panel is a pastor of some sort. Which makes the “reincarnated infant Jesus” comment all the more bizarre. Still, I think his point is, well, pointed: we turn the troops into idols even in a situation where what we ought to be doing is bringing them home. I assume this is a continued criticism of Obama’s slowness to get us out Iraq and his renewed emphasis on Afghanistan. I sympathize because I’d rather have them all out of there right now. But he couldn’t get them out now if he wanted to. It just doesn’t work that way in government. Still, my hopes are high that he’ll get them home much faster than someone else would.

The ultimate point is that the Afghans and Iragi’s love us soo much they don’t want us to leave (end sarcasm). But if the torture pictures and memos were completely released that might not love us sooooo much.

So, as long as we don’t reveral how badly was have treated the Afghans and Iraqis, they will continue to love us forever, even though they don;t really love us all the much right now anyway.

Eventually, we are going to have to reveal just how badly was have treated eveyone over there AND eventually we are going to have to leave and let them figure out how to get along without our help.

9/11 was eight years ago, we can’t do anything about it (except, maybe, try to catch Bin Laden…is anybody still trying?) We can’t change what happened almost ten years ago, all we can change is our own behavior right now.

When I got back from ‘Nam in ‘67, protesters proclaimed “get them out, now!” While I agreed with the sentiment, my question was “How?” Today, it’s obvious to anyone with an I.Q. over 4 we should never have invaded Iraq, and screwed up in Afghanistan in the first few days of that. I want our troops out, now!, but recognize that Obama is faced with wars longer than WW II, and a situation made far worse than the occupation of Germany and Japan in the post-war period.

We need to get them out, close Gitmo, and take those responsible for violating our own laws and Constitution, and international laws, to trial, but the Bush folks will have to wait their turn until we get some other things settled, first.

I’m not happy that Obama is delaying, but wishes and reality are not the same thing. That’s the problem with both politics, and “organized” religion.

dtroutma– you will of course put a couple of the Gitmo guys in your spare bedroom right?? No ? Where do you think they should go?

Steve - Perhaps in a federal supermax prison from which nobody has ever escaped? Just a suggestion.

By all means, the federal supermax prisons are where the Gitmo detainees should go. Senator Lindsay Grahm said ” the idea that we don’t have secure enough prisons for these people is just irrational.”

Secure prisons aren’t the problem. THE PROBLEM IS (PLEASE PAY ATTENTION HERE) When someone is in a prison ON THE US MAINLAND ….they receive the exact same rights ANY PERSON IN A FEDERAL PRISON receives ie and to wit: ANY JUDGE COULD DEMAND THAT THEY BE RELEASED ON A TECHNACALITY. Moreover, before being sentenced to prison they have to be tried….correct?? Do you think it’s possible that there might concievably be a terrorist attack at the court house? Since the jurors names would have to be released o the media…think those same jurors might become targets Please don’t quote Lindsay Graham, the guy was a college cheer leader and that becomes evident everytime you see him on the tube.. Better luck next incarnation.

Does everyone her understand: at the present time Gitmo prisoners, because of their location are outside of Constiutonal protection. In a supermax they would have. Any prisoner tried by a military tribunal would have to be housed at the military facility at FT Leavenworth or similar location. Those sites are not supermax prisons. There is only one Federal supermax in the country and guess what???IT’S currently overcrowded. My guess is our Muslim Kenyan born President secretly wants the Gitmo detainees released in this country so they can be provided with welfare, food stamps, and public housing to make amends for the ‘evil” the US has subjected them to.

And if the administrator finds my remarks about the filthy Ted Rall offensive …kick me off the board limit my free speech I’m sure many people would find it ironic ….I find his remarks about the US military offense especially on this day …I suspect there are more people at go comics that agree with me more than with Rall…perhaps not on this thread….there appears to be many 1960’s left-over leftist here who will rant about their support for “the working class” but at the same time spit on military personnel who for the most part are from the working class

Yeah, those pesky constitutional protections! What are they good for, anyway?

I don’t have a lot of time right now, but I have to ask (re, “our Muslim Kenyan born President”): What the h€ll are you talking about, man? The guy is a Christian and was born in Hawaii. These are commonly known facts. You make yourself look silly by asserting otherwise.

You have no constitutionally protected right to free speech here, Steve. Check the terms you agreed to.

I was right the true storm troopers here would like to see me turned into just another bar of soap.

tpenna – “commonly known facts”, you site are merely repeated assertions.

First, I don’t “site” them, Steve. I cite them. And the more you argue that he’s a Muslim and he was born outside the US, the more marginalized you become.

On the other hand, if you’d like to participate in civilized debates about ideas, we would all enjoy having you along.

steve (how ironic, you got the same name as the tv idiot who naively expects to scream his way into people’s heads.), even if we limited the prisoners right to zero, chopped them to pieces, blended them with pork and fed them to other inmates, that wouldn’t ressucitate anyone who died on 9/11, ok? The only thing we can do is make sure it doesn’t happen again.

Revenge is a mirage, and torture in Gitmo is all about revenge.

It’s not revenge…..IT”S JUSTICE….. And who is the TV idiot who expects to scream his way into peoples heads????….you lost me with that statement….you apparently watch more TV than I do. you are naive re: the way the world works….Osama Bin Laden himself said, “the people follow (respect) the strong horse… you seem not to grasp the significance of the statement as it’s understood by tribal cultures in the mid-east. And I do believe more than Gitmo detainee was hoping to land in NYC where he could hook up with a willing member of the Lawyers Guild who would take his case pro bono and chuckle and chortle if the terrorists friends carried out more attacks on “Amerika”. So you would rather see any number of your fellow citizens (one assumes even your family members) die than engage in enhanced interegation?

And seriously, all of you demanding, “Civilized Debate” does Ralls cartoon today contribute to that or is he just a bomb thrower?

“Osama Bin Laden himself said, “the people follow (respect) the strong horse”

Yep. And, in contravention to what OBL believes, strength is not dictated by who drops the most bombs, fires the most missiles, shoots the most bullets, or kills the most people.

“So you would rather see any number of your fellow citizens (one assumes even your family members) die than engage in enhanced interegation?”

Actually, yes. It’s astonishing to me that you would so willingly give up all that makes America America over a comparatively minor thing like terrorism.

Remember: We had nuclear weapons pointed at us for DECADES! We didn’t give up our foundations then. Why give them up now?

As far as “mutual destruction” If not not correct I think the only nation to drop a atomic bomb on any one was that USA? And Iran hasnt invaded anyone in 200 years. If these “detainees” are guilty then try them in a court of law. Be the house on the hill America, not the world bully that says do as I say not as I do to you. Quit sending our children off to die . Lets send a few politicians and neo-cons

Feel the love. Just don’t photograph the love.

Don’t we get deluged by enough mindless right wing sound bites without having to wade through that simplistic, irrational nonsense here? When will the wing nuts get it into the vacuum between their ears that they are a small minority?

“Since Muslim fanatics (and Iran) couldn’t care less about [mutually assured destruction], I think it behoves the world to wake up.”

Yes. What does that have to do with us abandoning our values?

“You are obviously someone who agrees with Ted Rall– he would rather lose an American city than slap a “detainee”. Here’s news for you– the vast majority of Americans do not agree with the two of you.”

You’re right. A majority of Americans would not agree with that. Here’s the thing, though: I don’t agree with that, either. You’re putting words in my mouth that I have never said nor have ever thought. I can’t speak for Rall, but I doubt he would agree, too.

Oh, and one more thing: We can save the American city AND keep our values at the same time. The guy that interrogated Abu Zubaydah says that he was getting real, actionable intelligence from standard interrogation methods until Zubaydah was subjected to “enhanced interrogation”. After that, he “clammed up”.

Why do you want to risk losing an American city, and destroying our values in the process? So you can “slap a detainee”?

Mattro53 -you are not contributing to civlized debate. better luck next incarnation

The guy who interrogated Zubaydah, was himself a Muslim Arab/American ….strangely enough, other members of the FBI counter-terrorism unit at Guantanamo took issue with that statement…stated that he was turned back to the CIA ….who actually got he information…..you didn’t hear about that in the Congressional testimony because the Democrat committee chairman (who was rabidly anti-Guantanamo) would not allow them to be called.

danielsangeo—-“comparatively minor thing like terrorism” ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I reformulate; revenge (no matter what you call it; it is wanting to make suffer someone who did you wrong) is understandable, but not healthy. It is like a drug; you always need more, always prusue more, hoping that one day your thirst for it will be quenched. But one day, you will not be able to get more, for a reason or another. You can only kill someone once. It can’t go on forever.

Geneva Conventions define physical and mental damage that constitutes “torture”. “Enhanced interrogation” skirts that, or violates it. I would love to see all the “right wingers” or others, who make jokes or snide remarks after THEY have been subjected to “loud music, cold rooms, stress positions, or sleep deprivation, for like a week. Even “legal” methods of interrogation would leave most of our “heroes” quivering masses of jelly crouched in the corner of the room.

“other members of the FBI counter-terrorism unit at Guantanamo took issue with that statement”

Really? Where these “other members” in the room at the time?

“you didn’t hear about that in the Congressional testimony because the Democrat committee chairman (who was rabidly anti-Guantanamo) would not allow them to be called.”

You’ll have to back this assertion up.

“danielsangeo –‘comparatively minor thing like terrorism’ ????”

Yes. Compared to nuclear weapons pointed at us that could obliterate the planet with the push a button, a bunch of guys with box cutters that can be stopped with excellent investigative skills is comparatively minor.

—

“What constitutes ‘enhanced interrogation’ in your book?”

“Enhanced interrogation”, otherwise known as torture, is that which leaves lasting physical and/or psychological trauma. Everything you listed (except “listening to Polosi” [sic]) constitutes torture if it traumatizes those in our custody.

“It’s like talking in circles.”

That’s because we do not give up our values for ANYTHING, even to go after those that don’t care about M.A.D. The reason I got confused is that I did not realize you were trying to assert that lack of M.A.D. meant that we could destroy our values. My apologies for not understanding such a foolish thing.

danielsangeo- “you’ll have to back up that assertion”–DONE! as soon as you supply me with your real name and level of security clearance.

Has no one mentioned the forteen PERMANENT military bases in Irag? Or the richest oil fields on the planet that run up the border of Iraq and Iran? What are the odds that we will let those go to Iran any time soon? In that light, could the abuses at Gitmo be intentionally designed to provoke. That is; to create anger and attacks to justify what is being done anyway? Or am I being too cynical? I think not. Cynical isn’t the right word here. Nevertheless; it’s one thing to be the heavy acting from self-interest, but it’s another thing to be the people bearing the burden of the whole thing (…Whiteman’s Burden?) and getting lied to about what is going on and why. So why lie to us? …’cause we’re basically decent people and we would have reservations about plunging into the dirty world of power? …probably.

The whole thing got going not so much ‘cause of 9-11, but ‘cause Iraq, Iran and N. Korea changed their oil accounts from US Dollars to the Euro. If this trend persists the US Dollar’s value will plummet and all of our debts come home to roost… big time.

So let’s debate what’s really going on and not tumble over propaganda and engineered misinformation. Or else, not.

BTW - Ted Rall totally rocks! To paraphrase: Love it or go read the Wizard of Id instead.

“voice of reason?” — Yeah, right Ted Rall rocks …LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT….sure pal. Ted Rall is a pampered, sheltered upper middle class F*-head who has total contempt for those not in his stratospheric social class. LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT?? you’re not the late Carol O’Connor are you??? LOL

voice_of_reason, I never thought of it that way, but maybe it is possible. After all, politics and war are like a game of chess.

I will get back and read more of these comments and don’t expect anyone to get this far, just want to say, the paranoia towards Muslims, Arabs, and most of our prisoners, is a mystery to me, is bleeep to me. The Swedes have taken in 80 thousand or more of the millions of displaced Iraqi’s and we took none until last year and maybe a sixth of that number. Whom are you gentlemen afraid of having live amont us? bleeep, you’ve already got me, for one. And if some of our prisoners–after years in solitary and other treatment meant to drive men mad–are tried in our courts, what scares you about that, apart from the danger that some of our courts will prove as hysterical, paranoid, and xenophobic as the rest of us? Respectfully …

decent one, 6/10

steve1945 insists that spewing mindless sound bites and insulting those who disagree is contributing to civilized debate. Judge the merits of that claim by reading the posts. It would be easy to refute all of his claims, but facts mean little to people who live their lives reacting rather than thinking. Another example of how right wingers react to being in a hole by digging with renewed fury. Rave on!

Just for those who asked what consitutes torture, this from the US. Code, TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 113C > § 2340

(1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control; (2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from— (A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering; (B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality; (C) the threat of imminent death; or (D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality.

Hello Concerned_Human,

You’ve brought up something critical. The best I can make of the towers coming down by an obvious controlled demolition is someone did not want them to fall sideways. Think of the super-mess of them taking out how many blocks of downtown. Ugh. Also something that is not mentioned much is the fantastic amount of gold that was missing from the buildings - it should have been a puddle in the basement at worst but it wasn’t there at all. Oh, except some in that abandoned truck in the access tunnel across the block. So, in addition to everything else, a very large gold heist, too, by the looks of it.

A sixteen foot hole in the Pentagon before the wall gave out; with no wreckage outside? …say what?! The battlefield command and control plane violating Whitehouse air space that the Secret Service photographed? What about those five Israel security people who had the camera set up to record the first plane that the police nabbed ‘cause somebody reported them when they saw them high-fiving the first plane’s hit? …bailed out and vanished, by the way. I’m NOT saying it was an inside job (inside WHAT, pray tell) but whoever pulled it off used military assets. I not going to speculate as to who was responsible. Remember that the flight records of all airports had been confiscated before the day was well advanced so there’s no way of finding out if the alleged flights even existed. All relevant security camera tapes nabbed, too. Almost half of the alleged hijackers have popped up alive and well… now that’s a caution isn’t it? And a listing of anomalies could go on …and on.

I watched “Illuminating Angels and Demons” (it’s on Hulu-dot-com) yesterday morning and it was talking about all of the Popes who have met untimely deaths (quite a lot, really) and the comment was made that one does not conceal a conspiracy with a cover-up but rather with so many theories and ensuing controversies (hi, steve1945) that everyone gets frustrated and worn-out sorting them through and lets it go in favor of something easier to deal with. Uh huh. You can see that working.

At least Rall has 47 people trying to figgure out what he means.

steve1945, just so you have no doubt about what you’re accomplishing here:

1) It seems you’re an underhanded shill in the pay of the Democrats. If that’s true, you’re doing a great job. No one reading your posts would ever think of joining the Republicans.

2) On the other hand, if you’re just, as you appear, an extremely ignorant and under-educated (that is, Bush-like) member of the dwindling Republican party, well, any American-loving patriot can only offer you wishes of the best success at continuing to destroy the party that came so close to destroying America.

Either way, good work, and keep at it!

A country with a high standard of living, rimmed with long accessible borders, blessed with freedom of movement and supportive of individual autonomy is a target for those whose beliefs center on a more restrictive society. “Rough men” stand between all of this country and those who would have it differently (and thank God they do).