Sorry, but there’s nothing wrong with profits. Profits don’t come at the expense of anyone – it’s the pursuit of profits that brings innovation and efficiencies. In fact, the insurance industry profits are low relative to most industries.
If the government was serious about reforming healthcare, they would remove state barriers to competition - let an insurance company from California sell insurance in NY.
And you, 0bama lovers, can you name a single government run program considered efficient, or successful for that matter. How about your favored, the DOD?
Peter, ask the folks at Hiroshima and Nagasaki if the government project worked. Interstate highway system has been left to deteriorate, but it worked, and was relatively cheap. Getting to the moon wasn’t cheap, but it worked, and a lot of the products we use daily, like our computers, were either invented, or greatly improved through the space program and NASA. Even though a typical contractor screwed up the first mirror, Hubble has been a hugely successful program. Wait, it involves scientific progress, so the ultra-right wingers and fundamentalists are terrified of the findings.
DOD has become a cesspool, and it was Ike that gave the quite accurate warning.
OK, I am dense. Yet no one answered my stupid question - OK there isn’t a good example, though I think that the way the US government took over the auto industry, through bankruptcy processing was amazingly quick and efficient …
Using the ‘other’ industrialized countries as an example is so wrong on so many levels that I can only touch on a couple:
America has, and always shall lead, not follow.
Every single ‘industrialized’ country that has ‘nationalized’ health care is having enormous budgetary problems - while they only spend a fraction on defense. They have virtually all (except Canada, not yet) had to allow private insurance companies and clinics.
I have just returned from the UK, where BBC talk shows (nothing but left-wingers) rage about Americans not wanting a version of their NHS - they love the NHS, pride themselves that the waiting period for an exam has been reduced from 18 to 15 weeks, and you can have a major surgery with 5 weeks, down from 8 or so.
Most importantly is the cultural difference - the common Brits for example think that the NHS care is free.
petergrt said:
“Most importantly is the cultural difference - the common Brits for example think that the NHS care is free.”
…?
The Brits are well aware the NHS is paid for through their taxes and therefore not “free”. What we don’t have are crippling bills to pay that may bankrupt us which seems to the cause of 60% of all personal bankruptcies in the US.
18 weeks for an exam? Nonsense. GP appointments are within 48 hours. I think you may have misheard the talk shows, selectively picking out numbers to report back.
Over the last decade the NHS has had some major improvements although I believe the target-based evaluation of their services can and are easily skewed. Wrong approach. Admittedly there appears to be a postal(zip) code lottery as to how well you’re treated through the NHS. Your debate in the US when it involved the NHS has had a positive effect here in the UK. Many came out to strongly support it but also critics that it shouldn’t be the hallowed cow that some staunch defenders make it out to be. That’s what this excellent system needs, constructive & honest criticism.
However, you are misreporting what you have heard whilst in the UK and that is wrong, too.
petergrt said:
“They have virtually all (except Canada, not yet) had to allow private insurance companies and clinics.”
No, Canada has them, too, just like the UK.
But note that the UK’s NHS is tax based while most other European models are mixed insurance based models that also provide universal care. There’s room for private enterprise.
It, of course, leads to a two-tiered system. The aim is to ensure the basic care is still excellent care.
———————————
“America has, and always shall lead, not follow. ”
Mr or MS. dtrout - Interesting that you have to go back 60 years or more to find a government project that worked. About NASA, all of that work is and always was farmed out to contractors, and private companies did all the design and development.They were inspired by patriotism, pride, and yes, profit to do their best.
Also, just a brief question about how you profile and stereotype those with opinions different from yours, (i.e. -ultra right-wingers and fundamentalists). Is it really necessary for you to dehumanize your philosophical opponents? I remember when even politicians used to refer to their opponents as “My learned colleague.”
Dr Canuck, my noble and well-intending adversary, (isn’t that enough to make you puke), the reason other countries have not tried to come up with another system is that they are NOT capitalist nations. The government will not put forth the effort to look for a better system, that would be way too much admission of failure . Private industry will not explore the options, because It would take an individual willing to risk a large amount of capital to begin the process, and there would likely be no PROFIT. It takes work to design health insurance systems, and trying to buck the national government would be fruitless. It will never happen while this portion of their society has become socialist.
Loco, my brother was one of those working on those NASA contracted projects. His patriotism was limited to what size boat he’d buy next, and how he could pump up his bonuses, that was while I was getting shot at in ‘Nam.
As for “private enterprise” success, do you own a Hummer? GM stock? Chrysler? Enron? AIG? Right, you own an outsourced company in Mumbai, and have all those Hinus named “Paul” and “Andy” working for you.
As to “dehumanizing”, try “gook”, “raghead”, “puke” and all the insulting, dehumanizing, idiotic things you, andy and the right wing bigots spout on this site.
Dtrout, I am glad to see that you didn’t disagree with anything I said.
If you really want to know, I drive a 2000 Buick, and I work for the government, a union job.
As for your last paragraph, was that a case of Tourette’s syndrome? It must be embarrassing at social functions. What is a “raghead?”
“18 weeks for an exam? Nonsense. GP appointments are within 48 hours. I think you may have misheard the talk shows, selectively picking out numbers to report back.”
I beg your pardon! I am not a Democrat!
The talk show was attended by a NHS official and the debate was, in addition to the American criticism, about a great number of misdiagnosis’ of Swine Flue, and about the fact that many doctors refuse to see patients and diagnose them over the phone instead. One mother in particular complained that for 3 days could not get to see a doctor in spite of her son’s running a high fever. He was eventually prescribed Tami-flue over the phone, and died a day later - of meningitis.
It was then the he, the NHS official acknowledged the problems and indicated the numbers I stated earlier.
I have to say, that the amount of misinformation about our health-care system that is being spewed by the American left and amplified by the European left is noxious in the extreme.
With respect to Canada: I know that at least one of the provinces want out of the system. Further, though there might be some private clinics, they must be very limited, as I understand there is not MRI in private system, for example.
The dogs and cats in Canada have it much better - they can get an MRI or a CT any time …
Loco- moment of stress? It is the constant dehumanizing of “opponents” on our national level, and here, that set me off. It is getting really absurd that those on the right are the ones constantly using epithets(libtard et al), or acronyms as epithets, and debasing names, who are the most thin skinned if subject to the slightest reversal of “fortune”.
In every war, the first move is to debase the legitimacy of the enemy as “an equal” or “human”.
I also worked for the government, and in fact was a union steward for a while, but didn’t agree with everything “my side” was doing, and when change seemed necessary for everyone’s good, tried my best to achieve it.
I only wish that the right wing would have the cojones to be half as nefarious as liberals accuse us of being.
The fact is that the left’s veracity for vitriol is unmatched and unmatchable.
Just try to listen the Air America, if its still on. And the way Bush was and continues being treated by the left wing ‘intellectuals’ is very civil, indeed.
GNW, what have I called you? Cite the links. Actually, I’ve taken more to ignoring you after you repeatedly wouldn’t respond to questions in an ongoing dialogue.
Dtrout - thank you. Much respect to you for that last post.
Shop Steward is a difficult task. We just recently held our elections, and I took the easy road of being on the election committee because then I could not be nominated as steward. I didn’t feel that I was knowledgeable enough to represent.
GNW and BCS- I am the new guy here, but it seems to me that conservatives and liberals can throw stones at an equal pace and velocity. You have both impressed me at times with posts. Please stick to the topics. I am a conservative at heart, but I am not happy with any politician on either side.
Loco, I appreciate your comment, but GNW posted that I specifically call him names. With the exception of one poster whose avatar alone I find extremely offensive, I don’t’ believe I call specific posters on this site names. I simply asked GNW to back up that claim.
Again, I appreciate your thought. Like you, I’m not too happy with politicians on either side of the aisle these days.
BCS, your comment was that was the ones on the Right that were using epithets. GNWachs was pointing out that plenty on the Left were calling him names, that’s all.
It easy to paint with a broad brush, I’m completely guilty of it myself. For instance I was stunned to learn that some socialists are good at math, which thing I had never supposed.
I think there is a natural human tendency to believe what you want and disregard the rest. I see that there are a lot of strong views on the left and right. That’s part of the reason I ended up developing a libertarian mindset. For instance there are a lot of social behaviors I personally find immoral or unconscionable , but that’s my sense of morality. I didn’t feel like I had the right to tell others how they should be behaving (as long as they weren’t hurting someone else).
Conversely, I see a person’s resources as their own. I might believe in giving to one cause or another (and do) but I don’t feel I have the right to take money from others to do what I think is ‘good’. This doesn’t include the things that the constitution says government is supposed to be doing (courts , law enforcement etc) which are necessary for any society to function. I’ve been accused of being mean, nasty, heartless, and unfeeling by the people who think the government is the solution to all our problems, which is also a bit of a broad brush as well, since I am none of those things, I just think people ought to be free to do what they want with the resources that they’ve earned.
Loco, if you read the posts on this thread, you’ll see I did not make a comment here at all, until GNW wrote that I specifically called HIM names …. GNW was in fact referring to a statement by a different poster.
So I repeat, GNW, cite a link where I specifically called you a name. You made the statement, back it up.
Dtroutma over 14 years ago
It’s just the Republican “death panel” pony.
HUMPHRIES over 14 years ago
(——————-), my favorite posting today.
Dutchboy1 over 14 years ago
Set it on fire, QUICK!
HUMPHRIES over 14 years ago
Mach, still trying ?
ynnek58 over 14 years ago
OK, so he’s a right-wing apologist, but the cartoon is pretty funny! Well done!
and Bwinkle there will be plenty of that – no need to worry!
cjr53 over 14 years ago
Yes, that’s right, he did forget the Republican Death Panels, and pursuit of profits at the expense of everyone else.
Madman2001 over 14 years ago
Sorry, but there’s nothing wrong with profits. Profits don’t come at the expense of anyone – it’s the pursuit of profits that brings innovation and efficiencies. In fact, the insurance industry profits are low relative to most industries.
If the government was serious about reforming healthcare, they would remove state barriers to competition - let an insurance company from California sell insurance in NY.
Doreen Rice Premium Member over 14 years ago
http://www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck/
petergrt over 14 years ago
Kill it! Kill it!!! Please.
Ramirez is the greatest!
And you, 0bama lovers, can you name a single government run program considered efficient, or successful for that matter. How about your favored, the DOD?
jaericho over 14 years ago
@DrCanuck: Simple. People that promise free things from the gov are more commonly elected.
deadheadzan over 14 years ago
Dr Canuck, I applaud you on your noble effort but reason just doesn’t stand a chance with these posters. They will use denial to the bitter end.
ndroberts95 over 14 years ago
Great stuff. I knew that I swim through the majority of his misguided poop for a reason.
Dtroutma over 14 years ago
Peter, ask the folks at Hiroshima and Nagasaki if the government project worked. Interstate highway system has been left to deteriorate, but it worked, and was relatively cheap. Getting to the moon wasn’t cheap, but it worked, and a lot of the products we use daily, like our computers, were either invented, or greatly improved through the space program and NASA. Even though a typical contractor screwed up the first mirror, Hubble has been a hugely successful program. Wait, it involves scientific progress, so the ultra-right wingers and fundamentalists are terrified of the findings.
DOD has become a cesspool, and it was Ike that gave the quite accurate warning.
oneoldhat over 14 years ago
dr c how much is the dnc paying you
petergrt over 14 years ago
OK, I am dense. Yet no one answered my stupid question - OK there isn’t a good example, though I think that the way the US government took over the auto industry, through bankruptcy processing was amazingly quick and efficient …
Using the ‘other’ industrialized countries as an example is so wrong on so many levels that I can only touch on a couple:
America has, and always shall lead, not follow. Every single ‘industrialized’ country that has ‘nationalized’ health care is having enormous budgetary problems - while they only spend a fraction on defense. They have virtually all (except Canada, not yet) had to allow private insurance companies and clinics.
I have just returned from the UK, where BBC talk shows (nothing but left-wingers) rage about Americans not wanting a version of their NHS - they love the NHS, pride themselves that the waiting period for an exam has been reduced from 18 to 15 weeks, and you can have a major surgery with 5 weeks, down from 8 or so.
Most importantly is the cultural difference - the common Brits for example think that the NHS care is free.
OmqR-IV.0 over 14 years ago
petergrt said: “Most importantly is the cultural difference - the common Brits for example think that the NHS care is free.” …? The Brits are well aware the NHS is paid for through their taxes and therefore not “free”. What we don’t have are crippling bills to pay that may bankrupt us which seems to the cause of 60% of all personal bankruptcies in the US.
18 weeks for an exam? Nonsense. GP appointments are within 48 hours. I think you may have misheard the talk shows, selectively picking out numbers to report back.
Over the last decade the NHS has had some major improvements although I believe the target-based evaluation of their services can and are easily skewed. Wrong approach. Admittedly there appears to be a postal(zip) code lottery as to how well you’re treated through the NHS. Your debate in the US when it involved the NHS has had a positive effect here in the UK. Many came out to strongly support it but also critics that it shouldn’t be the hallowed cow that some staunch defenders make it out to be. That’s what this excellent system needs, constructive & honest criticism. However, you are misreporting what you have heard whilst in the UK and that is wrong, too.
OmqR-IV.0 over 14 years ago
petergrt said: “They have virtually all (except Canada, not yet) had to allow private insurance companies and clinics.”
No, Canada has them, too, just like the UK. But note that the UK’s NHS is tax based while most other European models are mixed insurance based models that also provide universal care. There’s room for private enterprise. It, of course, leads to a two-tiered system. The aim is to ensure the basic care is still excellent care. ——————————— “America has, and always shall lead, not follow. ”
:-|
Loco80 over 14 years ago
Mr or MS. dtrout - Interesting that you have to go back 60 years or more to find a government project that worked. About NASA, all of that work is and always was farmed out to contractors, and private companies did all the design and development.They were inspired by patriotism, pride, and yes, profit to do their best. Also, just a brief question about how you profile and stereotype those with opinions different from yours, (i.e. -ultra right-wingers and fundamentalists). Is it really necessary for you to dehumanize your philosophical opponents? I remember when even politicians used to refer to their opponents as “My learned colleague.”
Dr Canuck, my noble and well-intending adversary, (isn’t that enough to make you puke), the reason other countries have not tried to come up with another system is that they are NOT capitalist nations. The government will not put forth the effort to look for a better system, that would be way too much admission of failure . Private industry will not explore the options, because It would take an individual willing to risk a large amount of capital to begin the process, and there would likely be no PROFIT. It takes work to design health insurance systems, and trying to buck the national government would be fruitless. It will never happen while this portion of their society has become socialist.
Dtroutma over 14 years ago
Loco, my brother was one of those working on those NASA contracted projects. His patriotism was limited to what size boat he’d buy next, and how he could pump up his bonuses, that was while I was getting shot at in ‘Nam.
As for “private enterprise” success, do you own a Hummer? GM stock? Chrysler? Enron? AIG? Right, you own an outsourced company in Mumbai, and have all those Hinus named “Paul” and “Andy” working for you.
As to “dehumanizing”, try “gook”, “raghead”, “puke” and all the insulting, dehumanizing, idiotic things you, andy and the right wing bigots spout on this site.
YOU are the “puke”.
Loco80 over 14 years ago
Dtrout, I am glad to see that you didn’t disagree with anything I said. If you really want to know, I drive a 2000 Buick, and I work for the government, a union job. As for your last paragraph, was that a case of Tourette’s syndrome? It must be embarrassing at social functions. What is a “raghead?”
petergrt over 14 years ago
“18 weeks for an exam? Nonsense. GP appointments are within 48 hours. I think you may have misheard the talk shows, selectively picking out numbers to report back.”
I beg your pardon! I am not a Democrat!
The talk show was attended by a NHS official and the debate was, in addition to the American criticism, about a great number of misdiagnosis’ of Swine Flue, and about the fact that many doctors refuse to see patients and diagnose them over the phone instead. One mother in particular complained that for 3 days could not get to see a doctor in spite of her son’s running a high fever. He was eventually prescribed Tami-flue over the phone, and died a day later - of meningitis.
It was then the he, the NHS official acknowledged the problems and indicated the numbers I stated earlier.
I have to say, that the amount of misinformation about our health-care system that is being spewed by the American left and amplified by the European left is noxious in the extreme.
petergrt over 14 years ago
With respect to Canada: I know that at least one of the provinces want out of the system. Further, though there might be some private clinics, they must be very limited, as I understand there is not MRI in private system, for example.
The dogs and cats in Canada have it much better - they can get an MRI or a CT any time …
Dtroutma over 14 years ago
Loco- moment of stress? It is the constant dehumanizing of “opponents” on our national level, and here, that set me off. It is getting really absurd that those on the right are the ones constantly using epithets(libtard et al), or acronyms as epithets, and debasing names, who are the most thin skinned if subject to the slightest reversal of “fortune”.
In every war, the first move is to debase the legitimacy of the enemy as “an equal” or “human”.
I also worked for the government, and in fact was a union steward for a while, but didn’t agree with everything “my side” was doing, and when change seemed necessary for everyone’s good, tried my best to achieve it.
GNWachs over 14 years ago
dtroutma
“those on the right are the ones constantly using epithets”
So when Canuck calls me Wacko she is on the right? Have you read what BCS, ezdeb and bull call me? You have a very very selective memory.
petergrt over 14 years ago
I only wish that the right wing would have the cojones to be half as nefarious as liberals accuse us of being.
The fact is that the left’s veracity for vitriol is unmatched and unmatchable.
Just try to listen the Air America, if its still on. And the way Bush was and continues being treated by the left wing ‘intellectuals’ is very civil, indeed.
believecommonsense over 14 years ago
GNW, what have I called you? Cite the links. Actually, I’ve taken more to ignoring you after you repeatedly wouldn’t respond to questions in an ongoing dialogue.
Loco80 over 14 years ago
Dtrout - thank you. Much respect to you for that last post.
Shop Steward is a difficult task. We just recently held our elections, and I took the easy road of being on the election committee because then I could not be nominated as steward. I didn’t feel that I was knowledgeable enough to represent.
GNW and BCS- I am the new guy here, but it seems to me that conservatives and liberals can throw stones at an equal pace and velocity. You have both impressed me at times with posts. Please stick to the topics. I am a conservative at heart, but I am not happy with any politician on either side.
believecommonsense over 14 years ago
Loco, I appreciate your comment, but GNW posted that I specifically call him names. With the exception of one poster whose avatar alone I find extremely offensive, I don’t’ believe I call specific posters on this site names. I simply asked GNW to back up that claim.
Again, I appreciate your thought. Like you, I’m not too happy with politicians on either side of the aisle these days.
ynnek58 over 14 years ago
BCS, your comment was that was the ones on the Right that were using epithets. GNWachs was pointing out that plenty on the Left were calling him names, that’s all.
It easy to paint with a broad brush, I’m completely guilty of it myself. For instance I was stunned to learn that some socialists are good at math, which thing I had never supposed.
I think there is a natural human tendency to believe what you want and disregard the rest. I see that there are a lot of strong views on the left and right. That’s part of the reason I ended up developing a libertarian mindset. For instance there are a lot of social behaviors I personally find immoral or unconscionable , but that’s my sense of morality. I didn’t feel like I had the right to tell others how they should be behaving (as long as they weren’t hurting someone else).
Conversely, I see a person’s resources as their own. I might believe in giving to one cause or another (and do) but I don’t feel I have the right to take money from others to do what I think is ‘good’. This doesn’t include the things that the constitution says government is supposed to be doing (courts , law enforcement etc) which are necessary for any society to function. I’ve been accused of being mean, nasty, heartless, and unfeeling by the people who think the government is the solution to all our problems, which is also a bit of a broad brush as well, since I am none of those things, I just think people ought to be free to do what they want with the resources that they’ve earned.
believecommonsense over 14 years ago
Loco, if you read the posts on this thread, you’ll see I did not make a comment here at all, until GNW wrote that I specifically called HIM names …. GNW was in fact referring to a statement by a different poster.
So I repeat, GNW, cite a link where I specifically called you a name. You made the statement, back it up.