‘The Show Must Go On’….. the organizations who try to control here in North America CAN NOT change the PAST by creating issuses and making demands based on these irrelevant issuses…..
This is analogous to the situation that existed before you all were here on Earth. The only difference is that instead of an unknown source abusing you when you were not following their plan….. today if you are not humane, it will effect how you will evolve!
Quality reader comments here the last couple weeks, although the bizarre, seemingly WILLFUL ignorance that some commenters inflicted on the subject of climate change was enough to give one serious pause. A pause long enough to consider the value of comments posted under a pseudonym. My former employer the Buffalo News is about to ban the posting of anonymous comments on its website.
The debate points on this are pretty obvious: the fun-filled food fight the Web has always been versus the minimum standards of accountability and civility that a news organization might want to represent.
I’m not sure if the climate-change deniers would be significantly more bashful if they had to show their faces when they spewed their asinine lack of understanding of the subject. I doubt it. Some people are dumb and PROUD OF IT. But on Wednesday, under my cartoon about racism and a post about Obama, one commenter referred to the president as a “Nigerian Messiah”. Maybe such a person might be reluctant to talk that way if people knew who he was. On the other hand, in a discussion about whether racism is still potent in American politics, I don’t know if anyone could have proven it more effectively than he did. –Tom Toles”
Quality butt-kicking at http://tinyurl.com/3yq95mg
It’s 90 degrees in July and Toles is ranting about climate change?
Sure, there are plenty of ignorant “deniers”. There are plenty of ignorant proponents, as well. And there are millions of well-informed deniers. There are millions of well-informed proponents. Toles’ casual dismissal of those who do not believe in the Big Government power grab is just as offensive to me as the asinine comments he encounters are to him.
The only thing inappropriate about “Nigerian Messiah” is the substitution of Nigerian for Kenyan. It was a mistake. Other than that, Barack is very much a Kenyan, and he was fawningly portrayed as a Messiah-figure by members of the media and members of the Leftist Noise Machine in the run-up to the election. This is undeniable. RE: Farrakhan, Chris Matthews, Gangel of the Today Show, etc…
As to the cartoon, The reason for the stones are entirely different. The weather bureau -because the weather isn’t changing and the GOP ice carving because it is melting too fast…. ????
It was 90 degrees in May here… . There were days in December where it was still 80 degrees out. We had 2 full snow blizzards… I saw more snow this last year than I have seen in the years I have been here. The hots have been hotter and the colds have been colder. Where once I was able to work out in the heat of the day a couple of summers ago, I can barely walk to and from my car to work without needing an umbrella for some minor shielding from the sun’s rays.
That being said, I would still make my posts if I posted my name or full status here. My twitter account, for example, is public. I find that the best policy is just to say things you won’t regret and own up to the things you do.
Actually harley, your 7th grade education seems to have led you to believe you understand things you actually don’t.
Climate models DO take into account solar flux. For example, the simplest model (a Zero-Dimensional model) includes a term for the Solar Constant which is a measure of the incoming electromagnetic radiation per unit area from the sun.
A more complicated model based on the flux model also includes the heat transfer via convection in the layers of the atmosphere, but STILL includes the basic input of the energy from the sun.
The models get even more complicated from there, (Higher Dimensional models including things like sea surface temperature and thermohaline circulation and even more complex atmospheric properties ) but they all are based on the zero dimensional model, which includes solar output.
You are correct in stating that the atmosphere contains water vapor, and that stating water vapor is a green house gas. However, water vapor makes up a variable percentage of the atmosphere, but it’s usually around 1%. Thus it cannot contribute to “95%” of the climate. Also, not all greenhouse gases are created equal. Methane is worse than CO2 for example. Its the dynamics of the amount of ALL the gases that need to be considered, and (humanity) are currently doing our best to take stored carbon (fossil fuels) and stuff it BACK into the atmosphere. This changes the climate, and it is something humanity is in direct control of.
You are, in fact, a denier. You lack a basic grasp of the knowledge of climate change, and yet continue to maintain that its not happening, in the face of actual evidence, and experts. That’s the very definition of a denier.
I suspect you don’t actually care, but if you really want to learn more about the topic, read up on EMICs, or Earth System Models of Intermediate Complexity, here: http://www.pik-potsdam.de/emics/
The latest issue of Skeptic has a very good article by physicist and writer David Brin. Brin is not a climate scientist, but appreciates some of the issues professionally. He touches on both sides with a more reasonable skepticism – rather than flat denial.
Harley, you’re denying. The evidence is that you refuse to look at the data, and refer to Al Gore – who is irrelevant to the science – and call it a belief system, when you are in fact demonstrating your own belief system. You’re attempting to demonize something you do not understand and have not tried to criticize thoughtfully.
Maybe, they should replace that digital indicator of our national debt with a stone one, too. Why bother the taxpayers with inconvenient numbers that they can’t stop?
we stupid folks are so lucky to have you reliable intelligent folks to tell us what to believe……..so let’s consider the facts…CO2 causes a greenhouse effect….we use greenhouse to grow things…….many people are starving…….so we can look forward to the warming of northern Canada and Siberia……..much more arrable land to feed everyone…and we can divert some growth to bio-fuels….problems solved…..buy land 100 miles in and have beachfront property
I tend towards Magnaut’s view of things, which is, even if CO2 emissions had a significant impact on the environment, it is not demonstrably a bad thing in the context of the evolutionary worldview of those that espouse the effect. It is, afterall, just a “change.” I think CO2 emissions have a small effect on the environment, but overall, the warming effect is not as calamitous as we are lead to believe.
“CO2 causes a greenhouse effect….we use greenhouse to grow things”
Yes, and we use fire to keep warm and cook food, but too much of it will burn down your house and kill you.
“we can look forward to the warming of northern Canada and Siberia……..much more arrable land to feed everyone”
Not enough to replace the now-arable land that’s becoming un-arable because of heat and drought. How much will it cost to have the populations of the Middle East, north Africa, the Mediterranean, and the US southwest move to Canada and Siberia?
“buy land 100 miles in and have beachfront property”
Tell it to Bangladesh.
“even if CO2 emissions had a significant impact on the environment, it is not demonstrably a bad thing in the context of the evolutionary worldview of those that espouse the effect. It is, afterall, just a ‘change.’ ”
So was the meteorite that wiped out the dinosaurs 65 million years ago. Sure, it let the mammals evolve to take their place, but how did the dinosaurs feel about it? Now we’re in their place, but we can DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT before it hits us, if we have more foresight than chimps. At this point I doubt that we do.
Jade,,, I blamed the loss of afternoon exercise to my increase in age.
Magnaut and Habenero,,, Along with possible longer growing seasons in more Northern latitudes there will also be an increased desert area in the Southern latitudes. What many are witnessing here are the wide climate swings caused by the increasing global temperatures. ( The greatest of which is the increase in sea temperatures.)
If everyone is really concerned about CO2 emissions, there is a very practical way to save the environment, stimulate alternative fuels, and not wreck our economy. I am not being facetious, either. Legalize hemp and stop subsidizing corn and ethanol.
It is proven that increased CO2 in the atmosphere is very beneficial to the growth cycle of weedy plants. Hemp is a heavy consumer of CO2, with one ton of harvested hemp containing almost 50% of its mass from carbon. It is a valuable source of biomass, oil, and fiber. It requires little fertilizer and no pesticides.
I am going to be in favor of industrial hemp WAY before I’m in favor of billions of dollars in “carbon credits” and governmental schemes.
mdavis4183: and your evidence for this is what? The contents of your own skull? Thousands of scientists who have actually studied the matter disagree with you!
And harley…READ MY POST. AL GORE IS IRRELEVANT. Wow, so a movie produced four years ago by a well-informed non-scientist to alert people to problems has some glitches in it? Big deal. Here, just to show I’m not denying your point entirely, here’s realclimate.org’s criticism, where indeed they cite a couple of errors: http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2006/05/al-gores-movie/
I keep telling you, and you keep ignoring me. Al Gore is not the scientist here. Nor is he the only person talking about this.
By the way, I wouldn’t rely on Monckton for…well, anything, since he’s been caught repeatedly making up data. http://tinyurl.com/ddo4fz
Good sweet Christ, harley, do you ever read my posts? I never said humankind as a species was unable to adjust. I said our civilization was in trouble. If waters rise enough, we sink nearly every major city in the world. If fertile areas shift, we make major changes in geopolitics. If the Gulf Stream moves, the UK drops into the deep freeze and current crops become more difficult to grow. Insects move into areas for which there are no defenses against them; animals migrate or die out (and some of them are in fact unable to adapt); weather patterns become more severe, and we get more Katrinas wiping out cities and infrastructure – what’s so hard about this?
And your point about range is irrelevant. Study a bit more about statistics. The average difference between now and the last Ice Age was only a couple of degrees – but there is variation everywhere. And what we are seeing is a rise in the average, which includes higher highs, too.
I live in Boston, where we get more range than most of the country. But there are significant numbers of people here who have no air conditioning, because we did not need it. If temperatures go up enough, people die. No exaggeration - it’s happened during other heat waves.
SherriannPederson almost 14 years ago
‘The Show Must Go On’….. the organizations who try to control here in North America CAN NOT change the PAST by creating issuses and making demands based on these irrelevant issuses…..
This is analogous to the situation that existed before you all were here on Earth. The only difference is that instead of an unknown source abusing you when you were not following their plan….. today if you are not humane, it will effect how you will evolve!
SuperGriz almost 14 years ago
“Our very own full-face veil
Quality reader comments here the last couple weeks, although the bizarre, seemingly WILLFUL ignorance that some commenters inflicted on the subject of climate change was enough to give one serious pause. A pause long enough to consider the value of comments posted under a pseudonym. My former employer the Buffalo News is about to ban the posting of anonymous comments on its website.
The debate points on this are pretty obvious: the fun-filled food fight the Web has always been versus the minimum standards of accountability and civility that a news organization might want to represent.
I’m not sure if the climate-change deniers would be significantly more bashful if they had to show their faces when they spewed their asinine lack of understanding of the subject. I doubt it. Some people are dumb and PROUD OF IT. But on Wednesday, under my cartoon about racism and a post about Obama, one commenter referred to the president as a “Nigerian Messiah”. Maybe such a person might be reluctant to talk that way if people knew who he was. On the other hand, in a discussion about whether racism is still potent in American politics, I don’t know if anyone could have proven it more effectively than he did. –Tom Toles”
Quality butt-kicking at http://tinyurl.com/3yq95mg
Justice22 almost 14 years ago
SuperGriz,,, It goes both ways. Legitimate, knowledgeable posters would not post either because of harassment from others becoming more direct.
HabaneroBuck almost 14 years ago
It’s 90 degrees in July and Toles is ranting about climate change?
Sure, there are plenty of ignorant “deniers”. There are plenty of ignorant proponents, as well. And there are millions of well-informed deniers. There are millions of well-informed proponents. Toles’ casual dismissal of those who do not believe in the Big Government power grab is just as offensive to me as the asinine comments he encounters are to him.
The only thing inappropriate about “Nigerian Messiah” is the substitution of Nigerian for Kenyan. It was a mistake. Other than that, Barack is very much a Kenyan, and he was fawningly portrayed as a Messiah-figure by members of the media and members of the Leftist Noise Machine in the run-up to the election. This is undeniable. RE: Farrakhan, Chris Matthews, Gangel of the Today Show, etc…
Justice22 almost 14 years ago
As to the cartoon, The reason for the stones are entirely different. The weather bureau -because the weather isn’t changing and the GOP ice carving because it is melting too fast…. ????
Jaedabee Premium Member almost 14 years ago
It was 90 degrees in May here… . There were days in December where it was still 80 degrees out. We had 2 full snow blizzards… I saw more snow this last year than I have seen in the years I have been here. The hots have been hotter and the colds have been colder. Where once I was able to work out in the heat of the day a couple of summers ago, I can barely walk to and from my car to work without needing an umbrella for some minor shielding from the sun’s rays.
That being said, I would still make my posts if I posted my name or full status here. My twitter account, for example, is public. I find that the best policy is just to say things you won’t regret and own up to the things you do.
shadyproject almost 14 years ago
Actually harley, your 7th grade education seems to have led you to believe you understand things you actually don’t.
Climate models DO take into account solar flux. For example, the simplest model (a Zero-Dimensional model) includes a term for the Solar Constant which is a measure of the incoming electromagnetic radiation per unit area from the sun.
A more complicated model based on the flux model also includes the heat transfer via convection in the layers of the atmosphere, but STILL includes the basic input of the energy from the sun.
The models get even more complicated from there, (Higher Dimensional models including things like sea surface temperature and thermohaline circulation and even more complex atmospheric properties ) but they all are based on the zero dimensional model, which includes solar output.
You are correct in stating that the atmosphere contains water vapor, and that stating water vapor is a green house gas. However, water vapor makes up a variable percentage of the atmosphere, but it’s usually around 1%. Thus it cannot contribute to “95%” of the climate. Also, not all greenhouse gases are created equal. Methane is worse than CO2 for example. Its the dynamics of the amount of ALL the gases that need to be considered, and (humanity) are currently doing our best to take stored carbon (fossil fuels) and stuff it BACK into the atmosphere. This changes the climate, and it is something humanity is in direct control of.
You are, in fact, a denier. You lack a basic grasp of the knowledge of climate change, and yet continue to maintain that its not happening, in the face of actual evidence, and experts. That’s the very definition of a denier.
I suspect you don’t actually care, but if you really want to learn more about the topic, read up on EMICs, or Earth System Models of Intermediate Complexity, here: http://www.pik-potsdam.de/emics/
Jaedabee Premium Member almost 14 years ago
“The power that drives the weather on earth is the SUN. ”
Missing from this statement: the moon.Motivemagus almost 14 years ago
The latest issue of Skeptic has a very good article by physicist and writer David Brin. Brin is not a climate scientist, but appreciates some of the issues professionally. He touches on both sides with a more reasonable skepticism – rather than flat denial. Harley, you’re denying. The evidence is that you refuse to look at the data, and refer to Al Gore – who is irrelevant to the science – and call it a belief system, when you are in fact demonstrating your own belief system. You’re attempting to demonize something you do not understand and have not tried to criticize thoughtfully.
alan.gurka almost 14 years ago
Maybe, they should replace that digital indicator of our national debt with a stone one, too. Why bother the taxpayers with inconvenient numbers that they can’t stop?
Magnaut almost 14 years ago
we stupid folks are so lucky to have you reliable intelligent folks to tell us what to believe……..so let’s consider the facts…CO2 causes a greenhouse effect….we use greenhouse to grow things…….many people are starving…….so we can look forward to the warming of northern Canada and Siberia……..much more arrable land to feed everyone…and we can divert some growth to bio-fuels….problems solved…..buy land 100 miles in and have beachfront property
HabaneroBuck almost 14 years ago
I tend towards Magnaut’s view of things, which is, even if CO2 emissions had a significant impact on the environment, it is not demonstrably a bad thing in the context of the evolutionary worldview of those that espouse the effect. It is, afterall, just a “change.” I think CO2 emissions have a small effect on the environment, but overall, the warming effect is not as calamitous as we are lead to believe.
Jaedabee Premium Member almost 14 years ago
I don’t really care for Virginia Beach anyway. I won’t miss it when it’s underwater. And the sea levels *are* rising by the way.
Hint: Beachfront property is not a safe investment, nor is anything below sea level. *cough: New Orleans cough*
Kevin Parker Premium Member almost 14 years ago
“CO2 causes a greenhouse effect….we use greenhouse to grow things”
Yes, and we use fire to keep warm and cook food, but too much of it will burn down your house and kill you.
“we can look forward to the warming of northern Canada and Siberia……..much more arrable land to feed everyone”
Not enough to replace the now-arable land that’s becoming un-arable because of heat and drought. How much will it cost to have the populations of the Middle East, north Africa, the Mediterranean, and the US southwest move to Canada and Siberia?
“buy land 100 miles in and have beachfront property”
Tell it to Bangladesh.
“even if CO2 emissions had a significant impact on the environment, it is not demonstrably a bad thing in the context of the evolutionary worldview of those that espouse the effect. It is, afterall, just a ‘change.’ ”
So was the meteorite that wiped out the dinosaurs 65 million years ago. Sure, it let the mammals evolve to take their place, but how did the dinosaurs feel about it? Now we’re in their place, but we can DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT before it hits us, if we have more foresight than chimps. At this point I doubt that we do.
Justice22 almost 14 years ago
Jade,,, I blamed the loss of afternoon exercise to my increase in age.
Magnaut and Habenero,,, Along with possible longer growing seasons in more Northern latitudes there will also be an increased desert area in the Southern latitudes. What many are witnessing here are the wide climate swings caused by the increasing global temperatures. ( The greatest of which is the increase in sea temperatures.)
HabaneroBuck almost 14 years ago
If everyone is really concerned about CO2 emissions, there is a very practical way to save the environment, stimulate alternative fuels, and not wreck our economy. I am not being facetious, either. Legalize hemp and stop subsidizing corn and ethanol.
It is proven that increased CO2 in the atmosphere is very beneficial to the growth cycle of weedy plants. Hemp is a heavy consumer of CO2, with one ton of harvested hemp containing almost 50% of its mass from carbon. It is a valuable source of biomass, oil, and fiber. It requires little fertilizer and no pesticides.
I am going to be in favor of industrial hemp WAY before I’m in favor of billions of dollars in “carbon credits” and governmental schemes.
Jaedabee Premium Member almost 14 years ago
“Jade,,, I blamed the loss of afternoon exercise to my increase in age.”
I don’t think a 1 - 2 year age increase justifies mine, I’m only 27.SuperGriz almost 14 years ago
As of today in DC, it’s 99° F, tomorrow 100° F.
SuperGriz almost 14 years ago
HabaneroBuck said,
“I am going to be in favor of industrial hemp WAY before I’m in favor of billions of dollars in “carbon credits” .
Good thought.
SuperGriz almost 14 years ago
Today’s Tom Toles’ today!
http://tinyurl.com/29692yl
Motivemagus almost 14 years ago
mdavis4183: and your evidence for this is what? The contents of your own skull? Thousands of scientists who have actually studied the matter disagree with you! And harley…READ MY POST. AL GORE IS IRRELEVANT. Wow, so a movie produced four years ago by a well-informed non-scientist to alert people to problems has some glitches in it? Big deal. Here, just to show I’m not denying your point entirely, here’s realclimate.org’s criticism, where indeed they cite a couple of errors: http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2006/05/al-gores-movie/ I keep telling you, and you keep ignoring me. Al Gore is not the scientist here. Nor is he the only person talking about this. By the way, I wouldn’t rely on Monckton for…well, anything, since he’s been caught repeatedly making up data. http://tinyurl.com/ddo4fz
myming almost 14 years ago
oh, please - there is no such thing as anonymous posting.
anyone can find out who your isp is and the larger companies (like the guvment) have software that can find out exactly who you are !!!
Motivemagus almost 14 years ago
Good sweet Christ, harley, do you ever read my posts? I never said humankind as a species was unable to adjust. I said our civilization was in trouble. If waters rise enough, we sink nearly every major city in the world. If fertile areas shift, we make major changes in geopolitics. If the Gulf Stream moves, the UK drops into the deep freeze and current crops become more difficult to grow. Insects move into areas for which there are no defenses against them; animals migrate or die out (and some of them are in fact unable to adapt); weather patterns become more severe, and we get more Katrinas wiping out cities and infrastructure – what’s so hard about this? And your point about range is irrelevant. Study a bit more about statistics. The average difference between now and the last Ice Age was only a couple of degrees – but there is variation everywhere. And what we are seeing is a rise in the average, which includes higher highs, too. I live in Boston, where we get more range than most of the country. But there are significant numbers of people here who have no air conditioning, because we did not need it. If temperatures go up enough, people die. No exaggeration - it’s happened during other heat waves.