Jim Morin for May 09, 2010

ANandy, HOWGOZIT, what on Earth are you suggesting? Did it occur to you that corporate taxes in the US are among the lowest in the world, and are well below the equivalent for individuals – which are also among the lowest in the world? How did you expect to pay for all the bills the Bush Administration ran up, for example? Without taxes, how do you expect to maintain, oh, the Armed Forces, for example? Bake sales? How very 1960s of you!

The limited gov. that we need is NOT the bloted gov. that we have. Fed. welfare and S.S.I. are a joke and need to be eliminated. Also gov. workers making twice as much as people in the private sector doing the same job is obscene. Get rid of gov. unions.

Motivemagnus, I am used to seeing you post logical and deeply reasoned positions but here your politics have gotten in the way of your logic. The US taxpayer pays some of the highest taxes in the world. You conveniently forget that on top of US Federal tax we pay state income tax, city income tax, property tax, sales tax etc. My tax rate is over 50%.

My closest friend, an American, who married an Englishwoman and now lives there came to visit last month and told how much less he paid in taxes living in the UK. His heath tax even stopped at age 65.

In so far as corporate taxes they should be less. Pay out the money in dividends and then tax it. 47% of Americans do not pay one penny in federal Income tax and 60% of Americans now take out more money than they put in.

The Greece crises will hit here in a few years. Liberals so love the benefits and gifts they get that they forget someone must pay.

BTW, long ago Obama cost the US taxpayer more than Bush. And we haven’t even begun to pay the trillions the health care bill will cost. Wake Up!!

We are STILL paying the increasing debt from the LAST administration- that 5+trillion is racking up interest payments.

There IS a big difference in total taxes depending on where you live in the U.S.- My son bought a car part here in Oregon before going home, saving $30 in taxes. (No sales tax in Oregon) When I go to Florida, I’m aware of, and shocked by just how fast THERE sales taxes ad up.

But even attempting to argue that corporations even begin to pay as much in taxes in the U.S. as in Europe- is just stupid.

Long ago? You mean when he paid out some of the TARP funds that Bush authorized?

And any so-called Conservative politician that suggested eliminating SSI and Medicare would be drawn, quartered, hung, immolated, set before a firing squad, and then sentenced to life without parole at hard labor, by his own so-called Conservative voters.

trout, You didn’t read Libertarian’s post carefully. He did not claim corporations paid higher taxes in Europe. He was talking about personal taxation and proposed lower taxes on corps and taxing the dividends paid to individual stockholders. You are correct in the variation in individual tax rates from state to state. I live in NY which has one of the highest taxation rates in the country. It also pays out some of the highest benefits in the country.

Glad–I believe the rationale is do NOT tax corporations, but tax the individual SHAREHOLDERS as an INCOME TAX. That “47% of folks who don’t pay any federal income tax” also seems repeatedly challenged as “off the mark”. Social Security benefits for example, ARE taxed. Corporations have really gained by NOT being among those “individuals with rights” who actually DO pay their “fair share” of the tax burden.

There is NO QUESTION that U.S. tax law is a total mess, but it mostly boils down to those who HAVE money have worked the system so as not to part with any of it.

@dtroutma Re your statement that there is a challenge to the accuracy that 47% of Americans do not pay one penny in Federal Income tax. The numbers are totally accurate. It may not be convenient to those who think the tax structure is unfair but nevertheless it is true.

Prepare to be shocked

A) the top 0.1% of taxpayers by income pay 17.4% of federal income taxes (earning 9.1% of the income)

B) the top 1% with gross income of $328,049 or more pay 36.9% (earning 19%),

C) the top 5% with gross income of $137,056 or more pay 57.1% (earning 33.4%),

D) and the bottom 50% with gross income of $30,122 or less pay 3.3%

E) The bottom 47% pay nothing, zero.

Social security benefits are NOT taxed unless you earn 6 figures.

The numbers totally disprove your fanciful fairy tales about taxrates and actual payments.

While I do not disagree with your numbers Libertarian, there is a definite problem with the reason for those numbers. The wealth gap has widened to an unacceptable level. How to fix this gap without causing damage to basic principles of ownership and effort/benefit ratios is a prickly question.

Gladius, you are taking an intelligent responsible position. As can be seen above all too common is simply denial of the overwhelming percentage of taxes paid by a relatively small number of citizens. But the point you make is a good one. Technicologic, economic or entertainment abilities are vastly overwhemingly overpaid. But what can be done about that in a free society is problematic.

Libertarian, you are using skewed, or at least incomplete, numbers. Admittedly, it is hard to calculate. First of all, you are not using total tax burden. In Europe they have a VAT on most things - a tax on all purchases. This is not unlike what some of the Fair Tax people want, but it is on top of other income taxes. Second of all, you have left out payroll taxes and the like, which are paid by everyone getting paid, which means that “47% pay nothing” is not true. Minimum wage earners pay taxes to the government on every paycheck. Furthermore, if you count unearned money, then the rich get off light, which is why so many wealthy Europeans come here. We enable the rich to let their kids get richer. Most studies I have shown indicate that, among industrialized nations, we have among the lowest total tax burdens in the world. See: http://tinyurl.com/yvqc4q See also this, in Forbes – hardly a left-wing rag: http://tinyurl.com/ydvz6fa

motivemagus, please carefully reread what i wrote and see how you totally ignore what I wrote to make the same old tired complaint made by liberals for years. I am sorry to appear perturbed but you didn’t read when i wrote “47% of Americans do not pay one penny in Federal Income tax. The numbers are totally accurate”

You then deliberately (?) misinterpreted to say “which means that “47% pay nothing” is not true.”

What I wrote was true, they don’t pay Federal Income tax and you know that. They do pay social security and medicare fees. You also know social security by law is not a tax. It is a fee but not a tax.

But i will make a deal with you. Allow my children and grandchildren to opt out of those fees. They will never try and collect either social security or medicare but instead invest those dollars privately. Deal? Of course not because you know it is a terrible deal for them and you want to force them against their will to pay.

I then looked up your URLs to compare the taxes I pay. The article says Denmark pays the highest at 59%. Where is the State Income tax and City income tax I pay 15% of my income- on top of my federal tax and where is my property tax which is another 15%? If you just compare their total taxes to our partial tax the relationships are not obvious.

“The US taxpayer pays some of the highest taxes in the world. You conveniently forget that on top of US Federal tax we pay state income tax, city income tax, property tax, sales tax etc. My tax rate is over 50%”

I’m not sure what do you base this observation on, Libertarian. There’s something interesting I came across btw - a study of when Tax Freedom Day occurs in various countries. You are familiar with the concept, right? The US, on average, gets its on April 9th, the earliest of the other major Western countries, who usually have theirs in June and July.

I do realize it’s a gross approximation, but it might be better supported than your claim that the US has higher taxes than most other countries (of course, I presume you mean other developed countries, as well ;) ) .

4uk4ata

But they ignore the taxes paid by NY, NJ and California. Florida, Texas, Arizona Washington etc do not have State income taxes so very probably their Freedom day is April 9 but mine certainly is not. And how can they possibly know property tax. I live in a 1 bedroom condo and my property taxes are $25,000/year. Add that to my Federal Income Tax, State & City Income Tax, sales Tax, unlimited Medicare tax and my Freedom day is in July.

Does that magigcal 47 percent you envy include children and retired people? How about special groups like the Amish?

Get a HST like we have. What you pay is directly proportional to what you spend. Here it’s 14 percent.

Frog: Wage-earners. The number of non tax payers is 53% for families.

HST? is that a value added tax? If so Dems only want that in addition to income tax not instead of.

^Have it your way. It’s your country. You can take some inspiration from us IF you like.

Libertarian, my pension AND the piddly amount I get in Social Security WAS taxable income, on which I paid taxes! and I made a LOT less than “six figures”– some folks who cite the Limbaucile and other “right wing” arguments might check real life.

But, yes, a tax system that hits the middle class at a HIGHER percentage of income than the super-wealthy is cockeyed.

Social Security is Only Source of Income “If the only income you received during the tax year was your social security or equivalent railroad retirement benefits, your benefits are probably not taxable and you probably will not have to file a tax return,” according to the IRS, Tax Topics 423.

@ Libertarian: I think your information may be wrong. Here is the breakdown by state, btw. Where do you live?

http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/387.html

Libertarian, upon reflection I think your initial post appeared to give a mixed message. You referred both to “highest taxes in the world,” which I think I demonstrated is not true, and at the same time referred to the “47% who pay no Federal income tax.” Which way are you arguing here? That we pay too much tax or too little? I’m confused. If I am giving the “tired old liberal argument” it’s because it hasn’t succeeded yet. My view, first of all, is that libertarianism in its purest form does not reflect the realities of the uses of government. I think we’ve had this discussion before. I think government has its uses, and must be paid for, usually by taxes. What has happened is the tax burden has shifted (in terms of percentage of income) to the middle class, because the poor don’t have it and the rich get out of it in this country, including corporations, many of whom ultimately pay less than individual middle-class taxpayers. Furthermore, unearned income is taxed very little, meaning the rich get richer while wage earners get poorer. I think this is a very bad thing. So I think we are in agreement on some points.

motivemagus

Thanks for the thoughtful comments. Your first point accurately describes my views. Half of our population basically pay no Federal Income Tax. The other half pay all of it at very high rates. In addition all universal rankings must ignore our local systems of taxing because they differ from state to state. Add in my NYS Income Tax, NYC Income tax, NYS sales tax, NYC sales tax, my $25,000/year property tax on a 1 bedroom condo plus dozens of nuisance taxes we we far surpass all other countries.

The purpose of Federal government is to protect against force or fraud. See limited enumerated functions of federal government as listed in our Constitution. The states may pick up others eg education etc.

I love the dichotomy of liberal thought. Corporations don’t pay enough taxes, they go off shore and at the same time after the CU decision but they are not people and therefore should have no voice or speech. Make up your minds- taxes and speech or no taxes and no speech.

^You seriously don’t like looking at facts, huh Lib1? On paper we have the highest taxes but thanks to the loop holes people and corporations don’t pay that high tax bracket. You can go ahead and point out the bracket system on IRS.gov, but there is also a huge section on what’s tax deductible to avoid paying those taxes.

In retrospect that’s also the reason why 47% of the populations isn’t paying taxes. The other is that they are making poverty level money that they pay no income tax.

As far as your NYC taxes are you saying you don’t like your fire department or police protection? How bout those parks that are opened 24 hours a day? You can always do like Churchill and leave the urban jungle and come here to Florida. Then you can b*tch and moan about how NYC is so much better.

Quit comparing apples to oranges. You’re either talking about taxes or speech. Don’t change the subject twinkle toes.

Most of the tax codes are exemptions- mostly for wealthy folks and corporations to AVOID taxes. Yes, the amount of taxes coming from “rich folks” seems a lot, but it is percentage-wise of total income, quite low. Sales taxes definitely take from the poor and give to the rich. Ask those Europeans about VAT.

Libertarian, to my mind your dichotomy is a false one. People have free speech. People *at* corporations have free speech (but sometimes don’t feel they do). The Constitution guarantees free speech to citizens and individuals, period. Linking taxes and speech is irrelevant except insofar as it applies to the individual. Corporations, on the other hand, can shout far, far louder in representing one person’s view than any individual in that corporation. In that sense, they implicitly violate the concept of “one man/one vote.” This logic is what led to Senators being elected by the citizens of the state generally instead of by the legislature, as was originally done. The idea is that Senators should represent the people directly. Corporations are not people. They now have the right to express themselves under the First Amendment, which to mind is a terrible precedent, especially given that none of the responsibilities that are coupled with the rights are assigned to them. You cannot “arrest” a corporation. Taxes are a completely different issue. And as it happens, corporations benefit hugely from the government – not just in terms of corporate welfare (though in fact some oil companies get paid by the government to drill, and pocket the profits resulting), but in terms of having a stable base on which to build, with modern infrastructure. Ask someone knowledgeable about the oil companies in Nigeria. They need private armies there just to protect their drilling sites!

MM So NYC Mayor Bloomberg, in the face of 2 successful efforts to impose term limits, “bribed” the city council to overturn the peoples wishes. He then spent literally millions of dollars to fund his campaign. That was perfectly acceptable but if the Sierra Club wishes to spend their own money in a campaign your tail gets ruffled.

Lib1, there is a difference between an organization set up explicitly and publicly for a given set of stands, and a corporation, which can give money however it wants behind the scenes, with no justification. There are tight rules on nonprofits. Bottom line: corporations are not people, and should not be entitled to sway votes. There’s too much money in campaigns as it is, and as your example of Bloomburg demonstrates!