All students (not just minorities) get cheated by having ineffective teachers. This seems, more, like a way of blaming the poor performance of a group of students on something other then the real problem i.e. Ineffective parents that don’t teach their children the fundamentals at home like Discipline, Work Ethic, Respect for Authority, Values, etc.
I come from a family of Educators who are all recognized for their good work and exceptional teaching skills. They see poor performers in their midst (like any professions) and do what they can to encourage them to do better like we do to our co-workers who are slacking.
Can’t even spell “core”? Kids from dysfunctional family settings are the ones who need the extra help since it is unlikely the family will fix itself. If you can save the kids, they won’t become the next generation dysfunctional families.Schools in low income areas typically are very poorly funded by the state compared to more affluent communities. In general the US educational system is falling behind other developed countries. Core curriculum was an attempt to improve the situation by providing a uniform curriculum across all schools. It may not be the right approach since it has met with a lot of resistance but we do have to do something to improve our education system.
@Ted – I agree that the core curriculum was an attempt to provide uniform standards across the country and it has met with unfair criticism from the right because they don’t like their children being taught about Evolution, Astronomy, Earth Science or anything else that would cause them to question their parent’s Religious assertions.
I also agree that kids coming from a dysfunctional family setting are more likely to need help. But those communities won’t help themselves and expect my neighbors and me to open up our wallets and pay more to fix their self inflicted problems. We don’t create that money out of thin air. The money that goes to help their communities gets taken out of MY community and that’s where I say we have paid enough. Chicago schools have the highest cost per student and yet they continue to perform poorly because the local communities don’t put in enough effort.
Next – I don’t know about where you come from but in my area it is primarily Property tax that pays for local schools (Not general state income). We like it that way because we have more local control about how the funds are spent. If we allowed the state to manage those funds it would all get sent to the inner cities and squandered on Waste, Fraud, and Corruption.
I don’t know anyone who wants to see kids get a second rate education. But those inner city schools are kinda like third world countries living under warlords. We want to help them and we will WHEN they start cleaning up their own house first. How many times do I have to read in the paper about inner city parents complaining that the discipline is too harsh on their children rather then supporting their schools’ administration. How many times do I have to drive home, late from a meeting only to see teenage boys playing Basketball at 11:30pm on a school night. We have communities in Illinois complaining because the state can no longer afford to pay for daycare for the children of teenage moms who still want to pursue a diploma.
Why do I never here you and your progressive colleagues challenging these communities to hold themselves to a higher standard? I only hear you holding the rest of us up for our precious tax dollars.
I can tell you from personal experience that a kid who is sufficiently motivated will learn even in spite of bad teachers… they’ll just learn at their own pace and in subjects that interest them.
@Hiram – Or we could follow your lead and tell the kids and parents, alike, that it’s not their fault that they are failing. It’s the fault of a bad teachers, bad administrators and insufficient funds.
My kids have and do attend a rural school district that is, by no means, wealthy but it has good, hardworking teachers, administrators and parents that want the children to do well and MOST do. Not every kid thrives though so by your assertion we should label all of those teachers, parents, and administrators lazy and stupid.
The truth of the matter is; there are plenty of kids that will not succeed in school no matter how much money we spend on the school district because they have: Lazy parents, a poor attitude towards education, substance abuse issues, etc. But just like Ted – You would chalk that up to Not Enough money.
@Wolf – Here are a few (some more populist then others)1) Parenting license – Just because you can procreate doesn’t mean you should. Prohibit people from becoming parents until they can emotionally, financially and intellectually support a child.
2) Trade schools/apprentice programs for those that show little aptitude or attitude for formal education (Remove the thugs, Rogues and discipline problems from the classroom). Focus the teachers on those who can and want to learn.
3) Hold communities and parents responsible for the behavior of their kids. Make parents responsible for the care and upkeep of their teenage daughters that get pregnant. Make communities find and reform their own delinquents so they aren’t a menace to society.
4) Take many of the non-educational burdens away from school and move those to community centers off school property. We ask the schools to do many tasks that they weren’t originally designed to do.
5) Treat teachers and administrators as the professionals that they are. Too often we see parents treat educators like an impediment to their child getting an A rather then the reason their child knows their ABCs.
6) Treat Education like a noble activity rather then a means to a job. The push for High grades has caused many parents and children to lose sight of what is really important. Learning is the key not the test score.
7) Stratify classes – Not every child will be a Doctor Lawyer or Engineer but not every child struggles to learn to read either. Don’t force high level math on the kids who won’t need it and don’t require the good students to waste half their time waiting for slow peers to catch up. Nobody benefits under that scheme other then the social engineers.
I have never suggested ignoring the issue because my family lives it every day but I do think we need to hold families and communities accountable before we expect non-involved parties to open up their wallets to pay more.
Ineffective teachers affect kids of all stripes. Not just minorities. End tenure. Pay a decent salary and keep the schools open all year .. weather permitting.
From what I have heard and read, it seems that teachers today are required to do a hell of a lot more than teach. Sensitivity courses, remedial Spanish, disruptive/aggressive students who can, and probably will sue you, low pay. Is it any wonder that many qualified and possibly dedicated people who would like to be a teacher shy away? Who needs the aggravation?
some other school related issues that are clearly the teachers fault.
Overcrowded classrooms.. blame the teacherUnderfunded schools… blame the teacherStudents who live in poverty… blame the teacherStudents who’s only meal of the day is the school food program.. blame the teacherParents who don’t care.. blame the teacherSchools that are in disrepair.. blame the teacherLack of any art, music and theater programs… blame the teacher
Yes, there can be unmotivated teachers, but those working in schools that I know went into teaching because they wanted to make a difference, and they were driven to help children succeed. They certainly didn’t go into teacher for the pay.
Today’s urban kids are being taught to flip burgers, while those suburban students are educated to work in business, technology and finance.
So don’t go placing all the blame for a poorly educated minority population on teachers. there are many other contributing factors to the problem
Kids love to learn, for the most part. We should be able to tap into what seems to be a very widespread impulse to learn. Different kids love different things, however, and one-size-fits-all probably isn’t a good idea. I’m not particularly mechanical, and I wasn’t much interested in learning how to take things apart and put them back together, but I remember a kid in my grade 3 class who was just a mechanical whiz. I bet he became a good mechanic or engineer. I was always fascinated by words and language, and I became a teacher and writer. My sister loved plants, and eventually she became a professional organic grower and she wrote 14 books about organic gardening and agriculture. We should try to encourage a wide variety of ways of thinking and doing things. And we should make it clear that every contribution to society is worthy — we should honor and reward all kinds of different occupations. But that means setting up an educational system that has a lot of flexibility. It’s probably cheaper and easier to make everyone sit in rows and learn the same things all at the same time. Cheaper, but not better.
@WiseOrator – If you spent half as much time trying to understand the position of others that you currently spend on building straw men destined for destruction you might actually learn something.
Those social problems that are infesting the schools are not a tiny minority as you would like us to believe nor are they solely visited on urban schools. Meth is destroying rural communites far faster then crack ever destroyed the urban ones.
Read what I said then comment on what I said not on what you want me to have said.
It would be interesting to have quantitative analysts take into consideration all the different issues in terms of hard, evidence-based numbers instead of political opinions and offer workable solutions. They do it every for hedge funds with positive results. Do we care more for our money than our children’s future?
Perhaps if the USA took a lesson from the countries with the Best Educations systems in the world and gave Teachers the Respect and Salary of a Highly Prized Professional, we wouldn’t have to endure hearing the Right Wing constantly complain about “Ineffective” teachers..In Asian & Scandinavian cultures, “Teacher” is a Compliment of the highest order.In the good old USA, it has somehow become an Insult..Of course, when the Garbage Collector get paid better than a Teacher, you might begin to see why it’s tough to attract and Keep dedicated teachers.Too many of them can’t Afford to teach.
Has Steve Breen been in an urban classroom in the past twenty years? The disrespect, laziness, arrogance, and insubordination on the part of many students is unbelievable. The administration sometimes does its part, usually not as they are too concerned with either keeping their own jobs or trying to step up the ladder to the superintendent’s offices. The many great teachers out there are caught in a never-ending hell between the top, the students, and the parents. With no support from the top and many parents’ indifference, what is a teacher to do?
@Hiram – I believe you are referring to the argumentative term of creating a strawman – I sure seemed like that is what you are advocating though I may have read to much into your statement.
You, in the past, have advocated for a very progressive position.
As for blaming the victims – they aren’t victims as though this problem was visited upon themselves. They are willing participants in their own destruction for all the reasons I’ve stated above.
A crore system? Hummm, odd since the definition of a “Crore”, according to Wikipedia is: “A crore is a unit in the Indian numbering system equal to ten million”. I’m not sure what the Indian numbering system has to do with Minority students being held back by the incompetent teachers. Maybe the commentor is making a very oblique snipe at the so called “1%”? Maybe teacher “tenure” should be revisited. But I’m sure the unions will howl if anyone even suggests periodic teacher performance reviews.
@Hiram – You haven’t in the last 11 days on any subject actually (I checked).
Let us distinguish between Progress and Progressive. Progress suggests moving forward and onward (good things in my book). A Progressive advocates for social reform and new liberal ideas (Which isn’t necessarily progress).
The problem with Progressive agenda is that it relies on liberating the hard earned income from a group that is successful in the current social and political environment to distribute to another group that hasn’t been near so successful. No thank you!!!
@Hiram Bigham – I’m not sure I understand the term “EASY earned income”. Can you define it. I’ll hazard a guess that you are referring to Passively earned income such as investing but I want to get your definition first.
I don’t know about you but none of my income has been “Easy earned” – I’ve had to think, create, research, and develop for every $ I’ve earned.
I’m not anti-tax. I’m all for a fair tax that is used to pay for societal needs such as: Defense, Infrastructure, Public well being. I have no tolerance for tax dollars used in an attempt to round off the edges of capitalism because too often it goes to the wrong people at the expense of the right ones.
Mephistopheles about 9 years ago
All students (not just minorities) get cheated by having ineffective teachers. This seems, more, like a way of blaming the poor performance of a group of students on something other then the real problem i.e. Ineffective parents that don’t teach their children the fundamentals at home like Discipline, Work Ethic, Respect for Authority, Values, etc.
I come from a family of Educators who are all recognized for their good work and exceptional teaching skills. They see poor performers in their midst (like any professions) and do what they can to encourage them to do better like we do to our co-workers who are slacking.
Theodore E. Lind Premium Member about 9 years ago
Can’t even spell “core”? Kids from dysfunctional family settings are the ones who need the extra help since it is unlikely the family will fix itself. If you can save the kids, they won’t become the next generation dysfunctional families.Schools in low income areas typically are very poorly funded by the state compared to more affluent communities. In general the US educational system is falling behind other developed countries. Core curriculum was an attempt to improve the situation by providing a uniform curriculum across all schools. It may not be the right approach since it has met with a lot of resistance but we do have to do something to improve our education system.
Mneedle about 9 years ago
Well, Ted……I guess we could simply spend more money on it. Isn’t that always the liberal answer.
Mephistopheles about 9 years ago
@Ted – I agree that the core curriculum was an attempt to provide uniform standards across the country and it has met with unfair criticism from the right because they don’t like their children being taught about Evolution, Astronomy, Earth Science or anything else that would cause them to question their parent’s Religious assertions.
I also agree that kids coming from a dysfunctional family setting are more likely to need help. But those communities won’t help themselves and expect my neighbors and me to open up our wallets and pay more to fix their self inflicted problems. We don’t create that money out of thin air. The money that goes to help their communities gets taken out of MY community and that’s where I say we have paid enough. Chicago schools have the highest cost per student and yet they continue to perform poorly because the local communities don’t put in enough effort.
Next – I don’t know about where you come from but in my area it is primarily Property tax that pays for local schools (Not general state income). We like it that way because we have more local control about how the funds are spent. If we allowed the state to manage those funds it would all get sent to the inner cities and squandered on Waste, Fraud, and Corruption.
I don’t know anyone who wants to see kids get a second rate education. But those inner city schools are kinda like third world countries living under warlords. We want to help them and we will WHEN they start cleaning up their own house first. How many times do I have to read in the paper about inner city parents complaining that the discipline is too harsh on their children rather then supporting their schools’ administration. How many times do I have to drive home, late from a meeting only to see teenage boys playing Basketball at 11:30pm on a school night. We have communities in Illinois complaining because the state can no longer afford to pay for daycare for the children of teenage moms who still want to pursue a diploma.
Why do I never here you and your progressive colleagues challenging these communities to hold themselves to a higher standard? I only hear you holding the rest of us up for our precious tax dollars.
Ironhold about 9 years ago
I can tell you from personal experience that a kid who is sufficiently motivated will learn even in spite of bad teachers… they’ll just learn at their own pace and in subjects that interest them.
Mephistopheles about 9 years ago
@Hiram – Or we could follow your lead and tell the kids and parents, alike, that it’s not their fault that they are failing. It’s the fault of a bad teachers, bad administrators and insufficient funds.
My kids have and do attend a rural school district that is, by no means, wealthy but it has good, hardworking teachers, administrators and parents that want the children to do well and MOST do. Not every kid thrives though so by your assertion we should label all of those teachers, parents, and administrators lazy and stupid.
The truth of the matter is; there are plenty of kids that will not succeed in school no matter how much money we spend on the school district because they have: Lazy parents, a poor attitude towards education, substance abuse issues, etc. But just like Ted – You would chalk that up to Not Enough money.
Mephistopheles about 9 years ago
@Wolf – Here are a few (some more populist then others)1) Parenting license – Just because you can procreate doesn’t mean you should. Prohibit people from becoming parents until they can emotionally, financially and intellectually support a child.
2) Trade schools/apprentice programs for those that show little aptitude or attitude for formal education (Remove the thugs, Rogues and discipline problems from the classroom). Focus the teachers on those who can and want to learn.
3) Hold communities and parents responsible for the behavior of their kids. Make parents responsible for the care and upkeep of their teenage daughters that get pregnant. Make communities find and reform their own delinquents so they aren’t a menace to society.
4) Take many of the non-educational burdens away from school and move those to community centers off school property. We ask the schools to do many tasks that they weren’t originally designed to do.
5) Treat teachers and administrators as the professionals that they are. Too often we see parents treat educators like an impediment to their child getting an A rather then the reason their child knows their ABCs.
6) Treat Education like a noble activity rather then a means to a job. The push for High grades has caused many parents and children to lose sight of what is really important. Learning is the key not the test score.
7) Stratify classes – Not every child will be a Doctor Lawyer or Engineer but not every child struggles to learn to read either. Don’t force high level math on the kids who won’t need it and don’t require the good students to waste half their time waiting for slow peers to catch up. Nobody benefits under that scheme other then the social engineers.
I have never suggested ignoring the issue because my family lives it every day but I do think we need to hold families and communities accountable before we expect non-involved parties to open up their wallets to pay more.
superposition about 9 years ago
Instead of political opinions, why not use practices that have well documented, proven success in educating children?
George Gadsby about 9 years ago
Ineffective teachers affect kids of all stripes. Not just minorities. End tenure. Pay a decent salary and keep the schools open all year .. weather permitting.
moosemin about 9 years ago
From what I have heard and read, it seems that teachers today are required to do a hell of a lot more than teach. Sensitivity courses, remedial Spanish, disruptive/aggressive students who can, and probably will sue you, low pay. Is it any wonder that many qualified and possibly dedicated people who would like to be a teacher shy away? Who needs the aggravation?
matthewmbrwn about 9 years ago
some other school related issues that are clearly the teachers fault.
Overcrowded classrooms.. blame the teacherUnderfunded schools… blame the teacherStudents who live in poverty… blame the teacherStudents who’s only meal of the day is the school food program.. blame the teacherParents who don’t care.. blame the teacherSchools that are in disrepair.. blame the teacherLack of any art, music and theater programs… blame the teacher
Yes, there can be unmotivated teachers, but those working in schools that I know went into teaching because they wanted to make a difference, and they were driven to help children succeed. They certainly didn’t go into teacher for the pay.
Today’s urban kids are being taught to flip burgers, while those suburban students are educated to work in business, technology and finance.
So don’t go placing all the blame for a poorly educated minority population on teachers. there are many other contributing factors to the problem
lonecat about 9 years ago
Kids love to learn, for the most part. We should be able to tap into what seems to be a very widespread impulse to learn. Different kids love different things, however, and one-size-fits-all probably isn’t a good idea. I’m not particularly mechanical, and I wasn’t much interested in learning how to take things apart and put them back together, but I remember a kid in my grade 3 class who was just a mechanical whiz. I bet he became a good mechanic or engineer. I was always fascinated by words and language, and I became a teacher and writer. My sister loved plants, and eventually she became a professional organic grower and she wrote 14 books about organic gardening and agriculture. We should try to encourage a wide variety of ways of thinking and doing things. And we should make it clear that every contribution to society is worthy — we should honor and reward all kinds of different occupations. But that means setting up an educational system that has a lot of flexibility. It’s probably cheaper and easier to make everyone sit in rows and learn the same things all at the same time. Cheaper, but not better.
Mephistopheles about 9 years ago
@WiseOrator – If you spent half as much time trying to understand the position of others that you currently spend on building straw men destined for destruction you might actually learn something.
Those social problems that are infesting the schools are not a tiny minority as you would like us to believe nor are they solely visited on urban schools. Meth is destroying rural communites far faster then crack ever destroyed the urban ones.
Read what I said then comment on what I said not on what you want me to have said.
superposition about 9 years ago
It would be interesting to have quantitative analysts take into consideration all the different issues in terms of hard, evidence-based numbers instead of political opinions and offer workable solutions. They do it every for hedge funds with positive results. Do we care more for our money than our children’s future?
Tarredandfeathered about 9 years ago
Perhaps if the USA took a lesson from the countries with the Best Educations systems in the world and gave Teachers the Respect and Salary of a Highly Prized Professional, we wouldn’t have to endure hearing the Right Wing constantly complain about “Ineffective” teachers..In Asian & Scandinavian cultures, “Teacher” is a Compliment of the highest order.In the good old USA, it has somehow become an Insult..Of course, when the Garbage Collector get paid better than a Teacher, you might begin to see why it’s tough to attract and Keep dedicated teachers.Too many of them can’t Afford to teach.
tledovsky about 9 years ago
Has Steve Breen been in an urban classroom in the past twenty years? The disrespect, laziness, arrogance, and insubordination on the part of many students is unbelievable. The administration sometimes does its part, usually not as they are too concerned with either keeping their own jobs or trying to step up the ladder to the superintendent’s offices. The many great teachers out there are caught in a never-ending hell between the top, the students, and the parents. With no support from the top and many parents’ indifference, what is a teacher to do?
Mephistopheles about 9 years ago
@Hiram – I believe you are referring to the argumentative term of creating a strawman – I sure seemed like that is what you are advocating though I may have read to much into your statement.
You, in the past, have advocated for a very progressive position.
As for blaming the victims – they aren’t victims as though this problem was visited upon themselves. They are willing participants in their own destruction for all the reasons I’ve stated above.
William Bednar Premium Member about 9 years ago
A crore system? Hummm, odd since the definition of a “Crore”, according to Wikipedia is: “A crore is a unit in the Indian numbering system equal to ten million”. I’m not sure what the Indian numbering system has to do with Minority students being held back by the incompetent teachers. Maybe the commentor is making a very oblique snipe at the so called “1%”? Maybe teacher “tenure” should be revisited. But I’m sure the unions will howl if anyone even suggests periodic teacher performance reviews.
Mephistopheles about 9 years ago
@Hiram – You haven’t in the last 11 days on any subject actually (I checked).
Let us distinguish between Progress and Progressive. Progress suggests moving forward and onward (good things in my book). A Progressive advocates for social reform and new liberal ideas (Which isn’t necessarily progress).
The problem with Progressive agenda is that it relies on liberating the hard earned income from a group that is successful in the current social and political environment to distribute to another group that hasn’t been near so successful. No thank you!!!
Mephistopheles about 9 years ago
@Hiram Bigham – I’m not sure I understand the term “EASY earned income”. Can you define it. I’ll hazard a guess that you are referring to Passively earned income such as investing but I want to get your definition first.
I don’t know about you but none of my income has been “Easy earned” – I’ve had to think, create, research, and develop for every $ I’ve earned.
I’m not anti-tax. I’m all for a fair tax that is used to pay for societal needs such as: Defense, Infrastructure, Public well being. I have no tolerance for tax dollars used in an attempt to round off the edges of capitalism because too often it goes to the wrong people at the expense of the right ones.