To knock out the debt, we would have to raise taxes and guess who that would hurt the most, the 1%. So that isn’t going to happen any time soon with Republicans signing a pledge written by a self-described anarchist, Grover Norquist, who would like to see the government shrunk “to the size where we can drown it in a bathtub.” Those services the government once provided are getting fewer and fewer, our infrastructure and schools are suffering, wait until it falls apart and we’re a third world nation. The 1% can always move to Davos but the TEA Partiers, and the rest of us, will have to live with the consequences.
@Oldcoal – It was a problem then, too, but the Republican Congress gave W the equivalent of a blank check. For those of us who consider ourselves fiscal conservatives it is ALWAYS a problem.
Congress figured out early that they could spend the money of those unable to vote i.e. Children and the unborn to curry favor with the current crop of voters who want spending but don’t want to pay for it i.e. Geezers (Oh, sorry, Greatest Generation), Boomers and anyone else that uses services from the government but does not pay for them.
I understand the need to give Congress the ability to borrow money in order to spend during a recession but then they must also be disciplined to save and pay down debt in times of plenty. But what Senator or Congressman would be stupid enough to tell his constituents that the country is doing well so we need to pay more taxes and accept lower levels of service so that we have a backstop some time in the future during a downturn – They would be voted out of office immediately. So we need borrowing bills to be attached to savings bills that kick in automatically at some time in the future when certain realistic economic conditions occur.
The Alternative is to let inflation eventually reduce the debt out of existence at the expense of savers.
I remember when congressional Republicans voted to raise the debt ceiling 6 times while Bush was in office. What I don’t remember is any of them complaining about it.
@MikeFive – How do we know if the old lady paid any Federal tax. In this country it is possible to work and thrive and never have to pay a dime of Federal Income tax. By many measures it’s a 50/50 crap shoot without knowing anything about where your cousin was driving. We could probably improve our chances of guessing correctly by: Knowing the make, age and model of the car, where this car was being driven, etc. But it would still be a guess and there are plenty of variables we couldn’t account for without talking to her directly.
I understand the values that your Aunt was trying to instill in her daughter but it really isn’t relevant to this conversation.
I stand by my initial statement that there are plenty of people who want the government to dole out money and build all kinds of infrastructure but they want it done at someone else’s expense because THEY can’t afford it. Taken to it’s logical extreme we could live very well indeed on the backs of our children and grandchildren before they are even born. We should be borrowing at much higher rates and giving it out as cash subsidies to anyone who can give us a good sob story about why they earn their own living.
In my previous post I was advocating for Building government restraint into any bill that allows the Congress and President to get a blank check in times of need. Otherwise the political process will make sure that we continue to spend the income of those unable to vote for their own best interests.
The first income tax was levied after the Civil War to pay for all the damage wrought in that conflict. Only the very wealthy had to pay an income tax. After WW2, the income tax was required from all but the very poor. The way Americans pay for our wars, infrastructure, governance, and emergencies has always been imperfect, but is now deeply flawed. Those most capable of contributing have many tools with which to limit their participation. Companies making billions in profits are, in many cases, paying their workers a minimum to extract services while making them work longer hours with fewer benefits. One quick example is Wal Mart who pays so poorly that our taxes actually have to supplement the needs of their very large workforce. The middle class, once a major money generator for tax collectors, is shrinking and finding the money they make does not go as far as it used to. User taxes add to their burden. In my area, taxes on food served at restaurants, groceries, and other goods went up as much as three cents above previous levels. They’ve also added tolls to bridges that have been toll free for decades.The numbers of those depending on government aid increases as jobs fail to come back from overseas and as politicians fail to create jobs by passing bills to repair bridges, roads, pipelines, power grids, and more. And while many complain regulation is the problem, it is the nature of those problems that is most aggravating. In too many cases, regulations protect existing businesses from competition and new technologies while reducing liability on those existing businesses when their failure to protect lives or the environment results in disasters, disasters which also result in the use of our tax dollars and become a financial burden on our neighbors. Our politicians have the power and duty to balance all of these factors and in their own self interest and self aggrandizement do not do so. They distract us with their focus on social issues while the issues that really cost tax dollars are set aside. As long as citizens fail to become part of the process of picking intelligent, objective, educated, and honorable legislators, the ones we have will continue to take advantage of us and will continue to protect themselves and give themselves perks and benefits of which most Americans can only wish.Respectfully,C.
@SizeOfPea – You won’t get any disagreement from me when you take the Current Republican Party to task regarding their spending habits and their willingness to use the Federal Government as a cudgel with which to force others to think and act the way they want. Neither party has shown an unwillingness to try to control the population from that swamp.
I think you remember history a little different then I when it comes to how the Republicans eliminated the budget surplus. I would have had them keep it in place until the debt was paid off but the fear (a real concern) was that the Democrats were already looking for more opportunities to spread the good fortune of the rich around to their constituencies. The only way to keep the progressives from looting the treasury was to empty the treasury.
Not only here but elsewhere you have spoken of how the Big Money is thwarting the will of the people as though you know the people’s will and nobody else does. You seem to assume that the people’s will is that we Take from the Successful and give it out to the Unsuccessful in the interest of fairness. I don’t agree with that position and as recent votes have shown, neither does the majority of the voting public.
Now we can descend into an argument about whether votes are being suppressed and whether or not money is buying votes but it takes us nowhere.
We are better served at asking ourselves why is a majority voting for Republicans when it seems to be in their fiscal worst interest. The hypothesis I offer is that they vote for Republicans because there is a lot more to government leadership then how the money gets taken in and spent. People care about Law, Order, Fairness, and Obama seems to be taking us away from that.
People also care about the concept of a fair days pay for a fair days work and it seems like Democrats want to upset that apple cart and take the people’s hard earned tax dollars and give it out to the worst sort of layabouts and call that fair.
I dislike the Conservative Christian Branch of the Republican party because they seem to be the anathema to Freedom but they are only a little bit better then the progressives of the Democratic party who would take all of my wealth and savings and give it out to others promising to take care of me in return.
I want the Federal Government limited and I’m willing to starve the beast to see it happen.
@OldCoal – You are correct though those individuals would have to pay State and Local taxes.
I’m not sure where you are going with this though. Are you complaining because municipalities are able to offer tax free bonds? We could remove that exempt status but then Municipalities would have to pay a higher interest rate to attract investors in which case the municipal tax payers would have to pay higher taxes.Or are you complaining about people who buy those tax free bonds because you think they are getting a freebie. This would suggest you really don’t understand how the bond market works because things like Taxability, Risk of Default, Interest Rate, and term are all baked into the price the investor paid for the bond.But this is a good time to talk about WHY the income tax is so unfair and so distorted that it needs to be eliminated. We need a simple flat tax or, better yet a VAT or sales tax.
@Hiram Bingham – I think several of us on this chat log have disproved that tiresome attitude.
There are plenty of partisans to go around. There are Liberals who will not find fault in anything that Obama does but will whine and snivel about W and Reagan. And there are Conservatives who can’t see any mistakes made by W or Bush but will pi$$ and moan about Obama.
But that kind of dialog leads no where and becomes circular justification for any activity.
The interesting conversations occur when we can have honest differences of opinion on the decisions made by our leaders.
In case you didn’t notice. Here is what happened on January 1, 2014 : • Top Medicare tax went from 1.45% to 2.35%, an increase of 62 % • Top Income tax bracket went from 35% to 39.6%, an increase of 13 % • Top Income payroll tax went from 37.4% to 52.2%, an increase of 52 % • Capital Gains tax went from 15% to 28% an increase of 87 % • Dividends tax went from 15% to 39.6%, an increase of 164 % • Estate tax went from 0% to 55%, an increase of infinity . .
Maybe if the Repubs didn’t do things like wasting $24 BILLION in their budget blocking which also reduced the US credit rating there would be more money to reduce the deficit.Repubs have repeatedly blocked the bill that would stop tax deductions that US corps get for closing a US office to open in another country.Repubs want to continue fossil fuel and corporate agriculture subsidies.
feverjr Premium Member about 9 years ago
To knock out the debt, we would have to raise taxes and guess who that would hurt the most, the 1%. So that isn’t going to happen any time soon with Republicans signing a pledge written by a self-described anarchist, Grover Norquist, who would like to see the government shrunk “to the size where we can drown it in a bathtub.” Those services the government once provided are getting fewer and fewer, our infrastructure and schools are suffering, wait until it falls apart and we’re a third world nation. The 1% can always move to Davos but the TEA Partiers, and the rest of us, will have to live with the consequences.
Mephistopheles about 9 years ago
@Oldcoal – It was a problem then, too, but the Republican Congress gave W the equivalent of a blank check. For those of us who consider ourselves fiscal conservatives it is ALWAYS a problem.
Congress figured out early that they could spend the money of those unable to vote i.e. Children and the unborn to curry favor with the current crop of voters who want spending but don’t want to pay for it i.e. Geezers (Oh, sorry, Greatest Generation), Boomers and anyone else that uses services from the government but does not pay for them.
I understand the need to give Congress the ability to borrow money in order to spend during a recession but then they must also be disciplined to save and pay down debt in times of plenty. But what Senator or Congressman would be stupid enough to tell his constituents that the country is doing well so we need to pay more taxes and accept lower levels of service so that we have a backstop some time in the future during a downturn – They would be voted out of office immediately. So we need borrowing bills to be attached to savings bills that kick in automatically at some time in the future when certain realistic economic conditions occur.
The Alternative is to let inflation eventually reduce the debt out of existence at the expense of savers.
Jason Allen about 9 years ago
I remember when congressional Republicans voted to raise the debt ceiling 6 times while Bush was in office. What I don’t remember is any of them complaining about it.
Mephistopheles about 9 years ago
@MikeFive – How do we know if the old lady paid any Federal tax. In this country it is possible to work and thrive and never have to pay a dime of Federal Income tax. By many measures it’s a 50/50 crap shoot without knowing anything about where your cousin was driving. We could probably improve our chances of guessing correctly by: Knowing the make, age and model of the car, where this car was being driven, etc. But it would still be a guess and there are plenty of variables we couldn’t account for without talking to her directly.
I understand the values that your Aunt was trying to instill in her daughter but it really isn’t relevant to this conversation.
I stand by my initial statement that there are plenty of people who want the government to dole out money and build all kinds of infrastructure but they want it done at someone else’s expense because THEY can’t afford it. Taken to it’s logical extreme we could live very well indeed on the backs of our children and grandchildren before they are even born. We should be borrowing at much higher rates and giving it out as cash subsidies to anyone who can give us a good sob story about why they earn their own living.
In my previous post I was advocating for Building government restraint into any bill that allows the Congress and President to get a blank check in times of need. Otherwise the political process will make sure that we continue to spend the income of those unable to vote for their own best interests.
chazandru about 9 years ago
The first income tax was levied after the Civil War to pay for all the damage wrought in that conflict. Only the very wealthy had to pay an income tax. After WW2, the income tax was required from all but the very poor. The way Americans pay for our wars, infrastructure, governance, and emergencies has always been imperfect, but is now deeply flawed. Those most capable of contributing have many tools with which to limit their participation. Companies making billions in profits are, in many cases, paying their workers a minimum to extract services while making them work longer hours with fewer benefits. One quick example is Wal Mart who pays so poorly that our taxes actually have to supplement the needs of their very large workforce. The middle class, once a major money generator for tax collectors, is shrinking and finding the money they make does not go as far as it used to. User taxes add to their burden. In my area, taxes on food served at restaurants, groceries, and other goods went up as much as three cents above previous levels. They’ve also added tolls to bridges that have been toll free for decades.The numbers of those depending on government aid increases as jobs fail to come back from overseas and as politicians fail to create jobs by passing bills to repair bridges, roads, pipelines, power grids, and more. And while many complain regulation is the problem, it is the nature of those problems that is most aggravating. In too many cases, regulations protect existing businesses from competition and new technologies while reducing liability on those existing businesses when their failure to protect lives or the environment results in disasters, disasters which also result in the use of our tax dollars and become a financial burden on our neighbors. Our politicians have the power and duty to balance all of these factors and in their own self interest and self aggrandizement do not do so. They distract us with their focus on social issues while the issues that really cost tax dollars are set aside. As long as citizens fail to become part of the process of picking intelligent, objective, educated, and honorable legislators, the ones we have will continue to take advantage of us and will continue to protect themselves and give themselves perks and benefits of which most Americans can only wish.Respectfully,C.
Mephistopheles about 9 years ago
@SizeOfPea – You won’t get any disagreement from me when you take the Current Republican Party to task regarding their spending habits and their willingness to use the Federal Government as a cudgel with which to force others to think and act the way they want. Neither party has shown an unwillingness to try to control the population from that swamp.
I think you remember history a little different then I when it comes to how the Republicans eliminated the budget surplus. I would have had them keep it in place until the debt was paid off but the fear (a real concern) was that the Democrats were already looking for more opportunities to spread the good fortune of the rich around to their constituencies. The only way to keep the progressives from looting the treasury was to empty the treasury.
Not only here but elsewhere you have spoken of how the Big Money is thwarting the will of the people as though you know the people’s will and nobody else does. You seem to assume that the people’s will is that we Take from the Successful and give it out to the Unsuccessful in the interest of fairness. I don’t agree with that position and as recent votes have shown, neither does the majority of the voting public.
Now we can descend into an argument about whether votes are being suppressed and whether or not money is buying votes but it takes us nowhere.
We are better served at asking ourselves why is a majority voting for Republicans when it seems to be in their fiscal worst interest. The hypothesis I offer is that they vote for Republicans because there is a lot more to government leadership then how the money gets taken in and spent. People care about Law, Order, Fairness, and Obama seems to be taking us away from that.
People also care about the concept of a fair days pay for a fair days work and it seems like Democrats want to upset that apple cart and take the people’s hard earned tax dollars and give it out to the worst sort of layabouts and call that fair.
I dislike the Conservative Christian Branch of the Republican party because they seem to be the anathema to Freedom but they are only a little bit better then the progressives of the Democratic party who would take all of my wealth and savings and give it out to others promising to take care of me in return.
I want the Federal Government limited and I’m willing to starve the beast to see it happen.
Mephistopheles about 9 years ago
@OldCoal – You are correct though those individuals would have to pay State and Local taxes.
I’m not sure where you are going with this though. Are you complaining because municipalities are able to offer tax free bonds? We could remove that exempt status but then Municipalities would have to pay a higher interest rate to attract investors in which case the municipal tax payers would have to pay higher taxes.Or are you complaining about people who buy those tax free bonds because you think they are getting a freebie. This would suggest you really don’t understand how the bond market works because things like Taxability, Risk of Default, Interest Rate, and term are all baked into the price the investor paid for the bond.But this is a good time to talk about WHY the income tax is so unfair and so distorted that it needs to be eliminated. We need a simple flat tax or, better yet a VAT or sales tax.Mephistopheles about 9 years ago
@Hiram Bingham – I think several of us on this chat log have disproved that tiresome attitude.
There are plenty of partisans to go around. There are Liberals who will not find fault in anything that Obama does but will whine and snivel about W and Reagan. And there are Conservatives who can’t see any mistakes made by W or Bush but will pi$$ and moan about Obama.
But that kind of dialog leads no where and becomes circular justification for any activity.
The interesting conversations occur when we can have honest differences of opinion on the decisions made by our leaders.
Save the Bush did it too for someplace else.
oneoldhat about 9 years ago
you that want tax increase got it
In case you didn’t notice. Here is what happened on January 1, 2014 : • Top Medicare tax went from 1.45% to 2.35%, an increase of 62 % • Top Income tax bracket went from 35% to 39.6%, an increase of 13 % • Top Income payroll tax went from 37.4% to 52.2%, an increase of 52 % • Capital Gains tax went from 15% to 28% an increase of 87 % • Dividends tax went from 15% to 39.6%, an increase of 164 % • Estate tax went from 0% to 55%, an increase of infinity . .
Nantucket Premium Member about 9 years ago
Maybe if the Repubs didn’t do things like wasting $24 BILLION in their budget blocking which also reduced the US credit rating there would be more money to reduce the deficit.Repubs have repeatedly blocked the bill that would stop tax deductions that US corps get for closing a US office to open in another country.Repubs want to continue fossil fuel and corporate agriculture subsidies.