Would you prefer France’s “response” to the Nazis?Seriously, do you want ISIS to become the dominating force in the Middle East?Barry “JV” Obama waited way to long, but as our generals have been telling him the past 8 months, we must do something.I just hope he doesn’t go half-arse like Clinton did in Somalia and get even more of our troops killed in order to go soft to appease his base.
Of course, then “WE” are so very certain that ours is the way out of the dark ages that “WE” then get to go and invade soveriegn countries whose major religion is not ours to “instruct” them in how to get our of those dark ages! And then “WE” have the unmitigated gaul to expect to be greeted as liberators.
I twould be just as hilarious as the movie “The Mouse That Roared!” was some years ago. That is, if it wasn’t so very real, and therefore so very sad at the same time. Just ask those of our soldiers that have come back from such areas either maimed in mind and/or body, or just as good, the loved ones or those that will never come back at all!!
Tell us here great logical one, just what makes you such an expert on just what other people in the world expect of the USA? You have experience in the state department? You know, the people that the Bush administration ignored? Why do our leaders (especially the chickenhawks that never go and have to do the actual fighting) only seem to listen to the military people, and never the civilian experts on the areas that we get ourselves into.
I really, really hope and pray that we now have a president with enough intelligence to listen to the right experts this time around, just as he seems to.
At the very least he seems to have the sense not to listen to people on blogs such as this one, one way or the other!!
Insanity is doing the same failed thing over and over.BUT…..Obama is twisting this ploy to entrap the GOP majority in Congress…..to spread the blame in the future…and have the red-faced Republicans videoed as “partners” in the Fake War of selected drone hits that cannot stop ISIS.-Obama is demanding REDUNDANT authorization:the editorial of Investor’s Business Daily, 2/11/15 says in part= "As stated in the 2002 congressional authorization for the Iraq War, which is still in effect, the U.S. and its allies can continue ‘to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on 9/11/01.’ "-ISIS is a “branch” of Al Qaeda! The same Al Qaeda with changing, replacement leaders, who was the #1 reason for the 9/11 attacks in the USA.-This new Obama tactic is 1000% P-O-L-I-T-I-C-A-L, intended to trick the GOP into authorizing a No-Boots-On-The-Ground mini war, which has the odds and chances of success as an ice-cream-truck in (the HOT PLACE).
You say, “his is not a movie. Real people are suffering right now. If America still had slavery, do you think it would be so bad for a free country to come invade us and free the slaves or not? It’s our business after all.”I understand your impulse and I take it as proof of your generosity of spirit. I have struggled with this idea myself. As of now (my mind can change) I figure that allowing any country to invade another country opens the doors to more trouble than it solves, for a couple of reasons at least.1. If we invade country X because we don’t believe in genital mutilation, for instance, then another country could invade the US for all sorts of things, such as allowing people to be starving in the streets without health care. Or for allowing abortion. Or what have you. Whatever we allow ourselves to do to other countries we have to allow other countries to do to us.2. It generally works best if a country works out its own issues in its own way. Imposed changes often are resisted and cause resentment and turn out not to take into account lots of local circumstances. We can encourage change, but usually we can’t impose it. We certainly should try not to encourage evil practices elsewhere, for instance by supporting ruthless tyrannical regimes.3. And that brings me to another point — the US has been deeply hypocritical. I remember growing up in a “free” country which had segregated schools, etc., and which allowed a reign of terror against some of its citizens. And in its international dealings, on the one hand condemning human rights abuses and on the other hand supporting really terrible regimes. Let’s clean up our own practices before we mess in the affairs of other countries.But I would not erect this principle into a universal law. There are some situations so dire that direct intervention is called for. Genocide is such. But in those situations, the best procedure is to appeal to an international body; in the best of all possible worlds, that would be the UN.
Logicalone, it is not your idealism that those of us that oppose direct military intervention in the Middle East are questioning. So you can come down off of your moral pedistal and join us in a relatively free discussion if you so wish.
No, it is not spreading the true and good ideals that this country was founded upon that are being objected to here. It is th emethodology with which we choose to so spread those ideals that many of us here find objectionable. It i susing direct military invasion of the Middle East that we draw the line to. Other entire civilization have trid to do this for thousands of years, and not only failed but eventually have even either made the situation even worse, of have fallen themselves in so doing. I have no wish to see our great and good country do the same! I would like to think that you also feel tha tway as well.
Let me give you a small and very personal illustration of this situation where you might just have to use your imagination to some degree (ou do have that quality, I suppose)
I have experienced at least some of the horrors of a degree of combat in a way. I was one of some thousands of California National Guadsman that spent a part of my usual summer camp helping the LAPD to restore order in South Central Los Angeles during the heart of the 1965 Watts Riots. I had the dubious adventure of both being shot at and having ot shoot at other human beings suring this episode, and I have NO wish to do that ever again, believe me! I am certian tha tit was not anywhere as bad as the experiences of my fellow gusrdsmen that were activated and then sent over to Vietnam for a year sometime later (about 1969 I think). I had already served my 8+ years, and been honorably discharged by thea time. The only thing that made my (and my fellow guadsmen’s) experince some what equivalent was tha tinstead of being on th eother side ot eh Earth, this rioting was happeneing some 25 miles away down the freeway from my actual home in the city that I have always loved! Again, not something that I ever want to see happen again!
Now for the imaginary part (perhaps a movie?). Wha tif some Muslim ISlamic Arabic country in the MIddle East had seen what was going on, and then sent a large military force to “Help” us in our struggle against our own fanatics of tha ttime. And believe me they either had to be fanatical, or at best high on something really powerful to shoot down from a flimsey roof top into a large grop of LAPD officers armed with repeating shot guns and an equally large group of national Guardsman armed with M1 repeating rifles, and eeven 30 caliber machine guns mounted on the back of jeeps. Sometiems the entire tops of building were jus tblown away by the returning firepower. So. this army then land son the beach at Santa Monika, rubles up the highways to South Central LA, and then imposes a military peace on all concerned!
Now, tell me jus thow would an reasonable and patriotic American have felt about that? I can tell you that I am certain that many Americans in and out of that area would have joined the rioters in shooting at our so called liberators! To say nothing of inventing Improvised Explosive Devices (IED’s for short) in blowing them back to where they came from!
Get the picture here? I wil paraphrase a very important native American saying here in “Walk a mile in my mocassins befor yu think you really know anything about me!”
What amazes me is that the artist based his drawing on some other artist’s caricature of Obama. Couldn’t he go find a photo of the man and work out his own take?
@sizeofaPea….my Question to you, why do you HATE “republiCons” and “Conservatives”? -to reply to your screed to me, 1. I suspect the Congressional Republicans are talking about a regular boots on the ground war to stop ISIS in Syria and Iraq and wherever they spread the slaughter….not what Obama plans. And I doubt they want to sign on to the type of authorization Obama demands, for political preservation, for one thing. They may be astute enough to see the trap O is setting for them.-2. you claim the GOP’s agenda is to HATE Obama. NOT.you claim they are trying “to MAKE this president fail”…NOT. Commentary is widespread about Obama’s own self-produced FAILURES in every category; domestic, economics, foreign policy and single-handedly losing the Mideast, losing respect for America worldwide, alienating our nation’s best ally in the Mideast, Israel. Then there is the nearly $8 Trillion Obama has added to the federal DEBT.The bankrupting by design of US Healthcare, the ruin of a quality private healthcare system, the unending recession and growing % of Americans who are jobless and no longer counted as “unemployed”….the false financial numbers, quarter by quarter of his 8 year much too long term…..-These are facts, not “hate” and not “propaganda”….
I and others here keep trying, but when you make statements such as:
"Realize that I am not a dope. You pick your fights and you use your head, but we should have been about this business long ago. Now we may have lost the edge we had a decade ago. Now many here will die again. Just like WWII. FDR knew we had to get in, but people here were just like you and so many are now. Turning your back, looking away, saying it isn’t our fight. But people are going through things just as bad as the concentration camps and some are going through much worse. "
You just do not seem to want to understsnd that nobody here (and that absolutely includes president Obama) is NOT (you do understand just what “NOT” means I hope) saying that we as the US should just turn our heads and do nothing at all!!
But the onus of any changing of the Middle East should be placed upon the Muslim people locally. We have many ways of helping them do that whwew we would not require the deaths of many thousands of our own very prescious military people!
We easily have enough drones and stealth technology fighters and even B2 bombers if necessary, to literally wipe these ISIL monsters from the face of the Earth if wished. We also have the necessary specialized people and special forces people (in small but very efficient groups) to airlift innocent Muslim civilians from the path of this ISIL so that the Muslim military forces (backed up by our air strikes) could then deal with the ISIL without nearly so many civilian coalateral casualities. We also have easily enough excess guns and ammunitions to supply every Middle Eastern military from now until the halls of H&LL freeze over. After all, we are the major military equipmen tsupplier of this entire planet.
<pSo, before so stupidly invading and stirring up the resentments of a hornets nest of more moderate Muslims in that area (something that the ISIL people would be very happy to see us do) why not try these other methodologies first?
I and other good posters here understand your concerns. All we are saying is to try something different this time around!
As for Israel, they have the stongest and most modern military in the Middle East, and if that is not enough to protect them, then they fully believe that they also have the very God that created the universe on their side anyway. So, I do not think that we have to worry about their situation. And you might just notice that they are smart enough about their Muslim neighbors to not want to even get as invoilved as I have stated that we should be in this particular situation. Are they then not at least as smart as we are?
Night-Gaunt49 said, about 3 hours ago@ConserveGov“Both France and Britain were to blame for the Nazis gaining power and then their bloodless conquests. If they had both come down on them the way they did Germany in the 1920’s, there would have been no World War 2.”————————————————————Thanks for agreeing with me
ConserveGov over 9 years ago
Would you prefer France’s “response” to the Nazis?Seriously, do you want ISIS to become the dominating force in the Middle East?Barry “JV” Obama waited way to long, but as our generals have been telling him the past 8 months, we must do something.I just hope he doesn’t go half-arse like Clinton did in Somalia and get even more of our troops killed in order to go soft to appease his base.
Dtroutma over 9 years ago
Those most willing for the nation to take up arms, are those who never had to.(or just had better things to do with their time.)
Michael Peterson Premium Member over 9 years ago
… which is why he isn’t doing the same thing.
fatchance over 9 years ago
@ConserveGovWhat generals said that? Do you have a credible reference?
frodo1008 over 9 years ago
Of course, then “WE” are so very certain that ours is the way out of the dark ages that “WE” then get to go and invade soveriegn countries whose major religion is not ours to “instruct” them in how to get our of those dark ages! And then “WE” have the unmitigated gaul to expect to be greeted as liberators.
I twould be just as hilarious as the movie “The Mouse That Roared!” was some years ago. That is, if it wasn’t so very real, and therefore so very sad at the same time. Just ask those of our soldiers that have come back from such areas either maimed in mind and/or body, or just as good, the loved ones or those that will never come back at all!!
Tell us here great logical one, just what makes you such an expert on just what other people in the world expect of the USA? You have experience in the state department? You know, the people that the Bush administration ignored? Why do our leaders (especially the chickenhawks that never go and have to do the actual fighting) only seem to listen to the military people, and never the civilian experts on the areas that we get ourselves into.
I really, really hope and pray that we now have a president with enough intelligence to listen to the right experts this time around, just as he seems to.
At the very least he seems to have the sense not to listen to people on blogs such as this one, one way or the other!!
scyphi26 over 9 years ago
This applies not just to Obama but to all of the politicians at present.
kline0800 over 9 years ago
Insanity is doing the same failed thing over and over.BUT…..Obama is twisting this ploy to entrap the GOP majority in Congress…..to spread the blame in the future…and have the red-faced Republicans videoed as “partners” in the Fake War of selected drone hits that cannot stop ISIS.-Obama is demanding REDUNDANT authorization:the editorial of Investor’s Business Daily, 2/11/15 says in part= "As stated in the 2002 congressional authorization for the Iraq War, which is still in effect, the U.S. and its allies can continue ‘to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on 9/11/01.’ "-ISIS is a “branch” of Al Qaeda! The same Al Qaeda with changing, replacement leaders, who was the #1 reason for the 9/11 attacks in the USA.-This new Obama tactic is 1000% P-O-L-I-T-I-C-A-L, intended to trick the GOP into authorizing a No-Boots-On-The-Ground mini war, which has the odds and chances of success as an ice-cream-truck in (the HOT PLACE).
lonecat over 9 years ago
You say, “his is not a movie. Real people are suffering right now. If America still had slavery, do you think it would be so bad for a free country to come invade us and free the slaves or not? It’s our business after all.”I understand your impulse and I take it as proof of your generosity of spirit. I have struggled with this idea myself. As of now (my mind can change) I figure that allowing any country to invade another country opens the doors to more trouble than it solves, for a couple of reasons at least.1. If we invade country X because we don’t believe in genital mutilation, for instance, then another country could invade the US for all sorts of things, such as allowing people to be starving in the streets without health care. Or for allowing abortion. Or what have you. Whatever we allow ourselves to do to other countries we have to allow other countries to do to us.2. It generally works best if a country works out its own issues in its own way. Imposed changes often are resisted and cause resentment and turn out not to take into account lots of local circumstances. We can encourage change, but usually we can’t impose it. We certainly should try not to encourage evil practices elsewhere, for instance by supporting ruthless tyrannical regimes.3. And that brings me to another point — the US has been deeply hypocritical. I remember growing up in a “free” country which had segregated schools, etc., and which allowed a reign of terror against some of its citizens. And in its international dealings, on the one hand condemning human rights abuses and on the other hand supporting really terrible regimes. Let’s clean up our own practices before we mess in the affairs of other countries.But I would not erect this principle into a universal law. There are some situations so dire that direct intervention is called for. Genocide is such. But in those situations, the best procedure is to appeal to an international body; in the best of all possible worlds, that would be the UN.
frodo1008 over 9 years ago
Logicalone, it is not your idealism that those of us that oppose direct military intervention in the Middle East are questioning. So you can come down off of your moral pedistal and join us in a relatively free discussion if you so wish.
No, it is not spreading the true and good ideals that this country was founded upon that are being objected to here. It is th emethodology with which we choose to so spread those ideals that many of us here find objectionable. It i susing direct military invasion of the Middle East that we draw the line to. Other entire civilization have trid to do this for thousands of years, and not only failed but eventually have even either made the situation even worse, of have fallen themselves in so doing. I have no wish to see our great and good country do the same! I would like to think that you also feel tha tway as well.
Let me give you a small and very personal illustration of this situation where you might just have to use your imagination to some degree (ou do have that quality, I suppose)
I have experienced at least some of the horrors of a degree of combat in a way. I was one of some thousands of California National Guadsman that spent a part of my usual summer camp helping the LAPD to restore order in South Central Los Angeles during the heart of the 1965 Watts Riots. I had the dubious adventure of both being shot at and having ot shoot at other human beings suring this episode, and I have NO wish to do that ever again, believe me! I am certian tha tit was not anywhere as bad as the experiences of my fellow gusrdsmen that were activated and then sent over to Vietnam for a year sometime later (about 1969 I think). I had already served my 8+ years, and been honorably discharged by thea time. The only thing that made my (and my fellow guadsmen’s) experince some what equivalent was tha tinstead of being on th eother side ot eh Earth, this rioting was happeneing some 25 miles away down the freeway from my actual home in the city that I have always loved! Again, not something that I ever want to see happen again!
Now for the imaginary part (perhaps a movie?). Wha tif some Muslim ISlamic Arabic country in the MIddle East had seen what was going on, and then sent a large military force to “Help” us in our struggle against our own fanatics of tha ttime. And believe me they either had to be fanatical, or at best high on something really powerful to shoot down from a flimsey roof top into a large grop of LAPD officers armed with repeating shot guns and an equally large group of national Guardsman armed with M1 repeating rifles, and eeven 30 caliber machine guns mounted on the back of jeeps. Sometiems the entire tops of building were jus tblown away by the returning firepower. So. this army then land son the beach at Santa Monika, rubles up the highways to South Central LA, and then imposes a military peace on all concerned!
Now, tell me jus thow would an reasonable and patriotic American have felt about that? I can tell you that I am certain that many Americans in and out of that area would have joined the rioters in shooting at our so called liberators! To say nothing of inventing Improvised Explosive Devices (IED’s for short) in blowing them back to where they came from!
Get the picture here? I wil paraphrase a very important native American saying here in “Walk a mile in my mocassins befor yu think you really know anything about me!”
PainterArt Premium Member over 9 years ago
Isn’t it the Repbulican that want to go to war with troups on the ground? The editorial seems more about the comic artist.
Kip W over 9 years ago
What amazes me is that the artist based his drawing on some other artist’s caricature of Obama. Couldn’t he go find a photo of the man and work out his own take?
Dtroutma over 9 years ago
Hitler btw declared war on the United States, after we declared war on Japan, Hitler’s ally. Hmm, same trap works today.
kline0800 over 9 years ago
@sizeofaPea….my Question to you, why do you HATE “republiCons” and “Conservatives”? -to reply to your screed to me, 1. I suspect the Congressional Republicans are talking about a regular boots on the ground war to stop ISIS in Syria and Iraq and wherever they spread the slaughter….not what Obama plans. And I doubt they want to sign on to the type of authorization Obama demands, for political preservation, for one thing. They may be astute enough to see the trap O is setting for them.-2. you claim the GOP’s agenda is to HATE Obama. NOT.you claim they are trying “to MAKE this president fail”…NOT. Commentary is widespread about Obama’s own self-produced FAILURES in every category; domestic, economics, foreign policy and single-handedly losing the Mideast, losing respect for America worldwide, alienating our nation’s best ally in the Mideast, Israel. Then there is the nearly $8 Trillion Obama has added to the federal DEBT.The bankrupting by design of US Healthcare, the ruin of a quality private healthcare system, the unending recession and growing % of Americans who are jobless and no longer counted as “unemployed”….the false financial numbers, quarter by quarter of his 8 year much too long term…..-These are facts, not “hate” and not “propaganda”….
frodo1008 over 9 years ago
I and others here keep trying, but when you make statements such as:
"Realize that I am not a dope. You pick your fights and you use your head, but we should have been about this business long ago. Now we may have lost the edge we had a decade ago. Now many here will die again. Just like WWII. FDR knew we had to get in, but people here were just like you and so many are now. Turning your back, looking away, saying it isn’t our fight. But people are going through things just as bad as the concentration camps and some are going through much worse. "
You just do not seem to want to understsnd that nobody here (and that absolutely includes president Obama) is NOT (you do understand just what “NOT” means I hope) saying that we as the US should just turn our heads and do nothing at all!!
But the onus of any changing of the Middle East should be placed upon the Muslim people locally. We have many ways of helping them do that whwew we would not require the deaths of many thousands of our own very prescious military people!
We easily have enough drones and stealth technology fighters and even B2 bombers if necessary, to literally wipe these ISIL monsters from the face of the Earth if wished. We also have the necessary specialized people and special forces people (in small but very efficient groups) to airlift innocent Muslim civilians from the path of this ISIL so that the Muslim military forces (backed up by our air strikes) could then deal with the ISIL without nearly so many civilian coalateral casualities. We also have easily enough excess guns and ammunitions to supply every Middle Eastern military from now until the halls of H&LL freeze over. After all, we are the major military equipmen tsupplier of this entire planet.
<pSo, before so stupidly invading and stirring up the resentments of a hornets nest of more moderate Muslims in that area (something that the ISIL people would be very happy to see us do) why not try these other methodologies first?
I and other good posters here understand your concerns. All we are saying is to try something different this time around!
As for Israel, they have the stongest and most modern military in the Middle East, and if that is not enough to protect them, then they fully believe that they also have the very God that created the universe on their side anyway. So, I do not think that we have to worry about their situation. And you might just notice that they are smart enough about their Muslim neighbors to not want to even get as invoilved as I have stated that we should be in this particular situation. Are they then not at least as smart as we are?
ConserveGov over 9 years ago
Night-Gaunt49 said, about 3 hours ago@ConserveGov“Both France and Britain were to blame for the Nazis gaining power and then their bloodless conquests. If they had both come down on them the way they did Germany in the 1920’s, there would have been no World War 2.”————————————————————Thanks for agreeing with me