How much sin does it take before people lose belief in a religion.
The sin is not the rape of children, that is a crime, the sin is the cover-up.
The post that broke my heart was the one from a Catholic who said that as a kid he, and the other boys, knew something was up because of the way their parents asked so much detail of what had happen when they come home from church.
Remember that in “The Good Old Days” bad things didn’t happen, it was just that as long as you didn’t talk about them you didn’t have to do anything about them.
A well-done and well-deserved comic. However, I don’t think it’s an indictment of all religion. This is hardly the worst various religions have done. On the other hand, it’s hardly the worst that various societies, individuals and other non-relgious (even anti-religious) groups have done. It’s independent of relgion – it’s people who do things and try to cover their rears. Not sure if that means we should do away with all people?
Scobber, I don’t see it as an indictment of ANY religion or religious group. What I DO see is how many will use religion (or hatred thereof) to cover their own sins, whether they be Christian, Muslim, Jew. Buddhist or Atheist. And didn’t Jesus tell more than a few sinners to “Go and sin no more?”
On can believe in God without believing in the church. I live in formerly-very-catholic Acadia and most of the catholics I talk to go to church, pray and believe in God but they don’t have much trust in the Church itself and some are frankly hostile to the pope.
Yet I’m proud to say that from what I see, the Acadian clergy is quite progressive! Last week, the Bathurst diocese issued a new rule that said that no priest should be left alone with a child (that’s following a trial against a former priest from my village). Last spring, following the 9-year old abortion case, the priest of Caraquet said during his sermon to “beware of our own integrism” and another priest I know, père Roger duguay, left priesthood to pursue a career in politics. He’s now leader of the provincial NDP. Père Anselme Chiasson was an historian. He kept an impressive collection of acadian traditional songs and folk tales and some of these songs were brought into the twenty-first century by popular bands.
A priests who left a particuarly good memory in my village is père Dionne. He was parish priest from (some time in th 1970’s, I forgot) to 1992. He put our town on the map. He had the public pool and rink built (and we all know a canadian town is neither canadian nor a town without a rink!). He had his sins; a bottle of booze was “never too far from his chin”. My mother once said ” I had six children, and I have never been able to have one baptised without either the priest or the father being drunk!” There were rumors about him and ADULT women, but any catholic would takethat overa paedophile anytime!
But as you go up in the hierarchy, bishops and archbishops owe more and more to the Vatican and become little more than yes-men. Cardinal Marc Ouellet, the hear of the Catholic church in Canada, condemned the medias for “attacking the pope”.
Third in a self-indulgent series about why a leftie doesn’t always like government. The point I am making (probably mostly to myself) is that the frequent charge that liberals and lefties always like Big Government doesn’t always hold true.
In previous posts I have explained that my initial feeling about government was partly formed by my family’s strong support of New Deal policies; but as I began to watch the early stages of the modern Civil Rights movement (such as the situation in Little Rock in 1957), I began to develop a more complex analysis of the interactions of the three branches and the three levels of government.
Around the time that I was learning about the racial situation in the southern US, I was also learning about the totalitarian regimes of Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. As I saw and understood the regime of oppressive racism in the south, it didn’t seem to me much better than these totalitarian regimes. Of course each has its own characteristics, and they should not be simply equated, but the situation in the south seemed completely indefensible, and it seemed to be in complete contradiction to the ideals I had been taught were the basis of American civilization. I found it very disturbing to think that my country, supposedly the home of the brave and the land of free, was in some ways not significantly better than some totalitarian regimes. I could see that all three branches of the government at all three levels had conspired to support the oppressive regime of racism, and even though the federal government seemed to be changing, the changes seemed to be tiny, and seemed to be driven from below by action on the part of citizens. So I developed the feeling that the government at all levels was often Not A Good Thing, though it could be pushed to improve by the actions of engaged citizens. Later developments only confirmed this feeling. More to follow.
yaknow evil is evil, sin is sin, corruption … crime …it doesn’t matter who’s better or worse and God will take care of eternity, but to me, these rapists should go to prison like all child offenders. of course they wouldn’t last long …
Gorotor– Your observation is a great example of how the bible has been interpreted and perverted to conform to the agendas and whims of every self-proclaimed prophet from then to the present.
My point is precisely that no group of any sort holds a monopoly on either virtue or evil. It permeates all of us pretty much everywhere through time.
If scobber’s point is that anti-religious groups do not contain people who do evil, I guess I’ll have to disagree. While I think any rape qualifies as evil, so do torture and murder, among other things. I can think of at least the Soviet Union and Communist China as groups that were definitely anti-religious yet committed every atrocity you can think of including rape in all its varieties.
^ Ditto. As a Buddhist, I know what you are talking about. The Dalai-Lama had to flee to India for a reason and the Panchen Lama was captured as a child. To this day, we don’t even know where he is or if he’s alive.
Priests can’t be prosecuted because of a technicality; they are citizens of their nations AND the Vatican.
But IMHO, they have the right to vote, therefore, they should be subject to trial. In the past, those priests used every trick in the book to influence the politics of their countries way beyond their right to vote.
Well, in case anyone forgot (or never knew), one of the great motivators for the Reformation was the corrupt state of the clergy, and the lack of a Biblical imperative for the offices of priest or pope.
Habanero, agreed on the first point, but the latter is not quite true - it’s fairer to say that early Protestants disagreed that the Biblical sources justified a hierarchy and especially a Pope. (Especially where, I note cynically, they could bypass the hierarchy and make themselves authorities.) Roman Catholics point to Matthew 16:13-20, where Christ says “on this rock I will build my Church,” referring to Peter. Peter is always named first of the Apostles, mentioned as one of those few at special events like the Transfiguration and is referred to as the spokesman of the apostles. I think more generally some Protestants (especially Calvinists) feel that you need no intermediary between you and your God (like priests, and especially a hierarchy of priests), which was also one of the drivers to translating the Bible. Not for literal interpretation, I note, as modern fundamentalists treat it, but to come to your own conclusions.
cdward is considerably more of an expert on this.
I am angry and sorrowful at the Church, but I have evidently seen more saintliness than Atma, because I have met Catholic priests and nuns who were impressively holy, even when they were CEOs of organizations.
Christ is the rock to which Jesus referred in “upon this Rock…” He called Peter, “a pebble”, while referring to the statement, “thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God” as the Rock. I am familiar with Catholic apologetics. Furthermore, the evidence that Paul was the founder of the “Gentile” church while Peter was evangelizing Jews is so overwhelming as to be incontestable.
Yes, “sola scriptura” is the phrase we associate with the Reformation era today. No more hierarchy…and no more priests, certainly not celibate ones!
If (when) a priest committed a sexual assault against a child, he needed to be arrested and prosecuted. The Catholic institution did just the opposite, attempting to cover it up for years. There is really no excuse.
HabaneroBuck is right in that the rock that Jesus referred to which his congregation would be built on was himself. Peter was never referred to in the Bible as ‘first of the Apostles’ or ‘spokesman of the apostles’. While he was a good man and always tried to do what was right, he was also impulsive and a good example of what not to do.
Habanero, I agree that there is no excuse. I was merely clarifying Catholic beliefs. Yours and Dutchboy’s comments are from your perspective. I don’t question that there is plenty of room for disagreement here…
kennethcwarren64 about 14 years ago
WOW - Just WOW!
How much sin does it take before people lose belief in a religion.
The sin is not the rape of children, that is a crime, the sin is the cover-up.
The post that broke my heart was the one from a Catholic who said that as a kid he, and the other boys, knew something was up because of the way their parents asked so much detail of what had happen when they come home from church.
Remember that in “The Good Old Days” bad things didn’t happen, it was just that as long as you didn’t talk about them you didn’t have to do anything about them.
tomcib about 14 years ago
No worries. Now they’re on the patch. And down to two butts a day to boot! Cheers!
JerryGorton about 14 years ago
Yuk, yuk, Tom!! They deserve the sarcasm!
cdward about 14 years ago
A well-done and well-deserved comic. However, I don’t think it’s an indictment of all religion. This is hardly the worst various religions have done. On the other hand, it’s hardly the worst that various societies, individuals and other non-relgious (even anti-religious) groups have done. It’s independent of relgion – it’s people who do things and try to cover their rears. Not sure if that means we should do away with all people?
scobber about 14 years ago
cdward, what anti-religious group has done worse than raping young boys? Can you give an example?
Charles Brobst Premium Member about 14 years ago
It’s been CENTURIES of abusive priests.
leipsicbob about 14 years ago
Scobber, I don’t see it as an indictment of ANY religion or religious group. What I DO see is how many will use religion (or hatred thereof) to cover their own sins, whether they be Christian, Muslim, Jew. Buddhist or Atheist. And didn’t Jesus tell more than a few sinners to “Go and sin no more?”
wolfhoundblues1 about 14 years ago
Read the poem by Martin Niemoller. “Frist They Came”
CorosiveFrog Premium Member about 14 years ago
On can believe in God without believing in the church. I live in formerly-very-catholic Acadia and most of the catholics I talk to go to church, pray and believe in God but they don’t have much trust in the Church itself and some are frankly hostile to the pope.
Yet I’m proud to say that from what I see, the Acadian clergy is quite progressive! Last week, the Bathurst diocese issued a new rule that said that no priest should be left alone with a child (that’s following a trial against a former priest from my village). Last spring, following the 9-year old abortion case, the priest of Caraquet said during his sermon to “beware of our own integrism” and another priest I know, père Roger duguay, left priesthood to pursue a career in politics. He’s now leader of the provincial NDP. Père Anselme Chiasson was an historian. He kept an impressive collection of acadian traditional songs and folk tales and some of these songs were brought into the twenty-first century by popular bands.
A priests who left a particuarly good memory in my village is père Dionne. He was parish priest from (some time in th 1970’s, I forgot) to 1992. He put our town on the map. He had the public pool and rink built (and we all know a canadian town is neither canadian nor a town without a rink!). He had his sins; a bottle of booze was “never too far from his chin”. My mother once said ” I had six children, and I have never been able to have one baptised without either the priest or the father being drunk!” There were rumors about him and ADULT women, but any catholic would takethat overa paedophile anytime!
But as you go up in the hierarchy, bishops and archbishops owe more and more to the Vatican and become little more than yes-men. Cardinal Marc Ouellet, the hear of the Catholic church in Canada, condemned the medias for “attacking the pope”.
gorotor about 14 years ago
In several editions of the Bible the quotation is: “Suffer the little children…to come unto me.” Even more fitting don’t you think?
lonecat about 14 years ago
Third in a self-indulgent series about why a leftie doesn’t always like government. The point I am making (probably mostly to myself) is that the frequent charge that liberals and lefties always like Big Government doesn’t always hold true.
In previous posts I have explained that my initial feeling about government was partly formed by my family’s strong support of New Deal policies; but as I began to watch the early stages of the modern Civil Rights movement (such as the situation in Little Rock in 1957), I began to develop a more complex analysis of the interactions of the three branches and the three levels of government.
Around the time that I was learning about the racial situation in the southern US, I was also learning about the totalitarian regimes of Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. As I saw and understood the regime of oppressive racism in the south, it didn’t seem to me much better than these totalitarian regimes. Of course each has its own characteristics, and they should not be simply equated, but the situation in the south seemed completely indefensible, and it seemed to be in complete contradiction to the ideals I had been taught were the basis of American civilization. I found it very disturbing to think that my country, supposedly the home of the brave and the land of free, was in some ways not significantly better than some totalitarian regimes. I could see that all three branches of the government at all three levels had conspired to support the oppressive regime of racism, and even though the federal government seemed to be changing, the changes seemed to be tiny, and seemed to be driven from below by action on the part of citizens. So I developed the feeling that the government at all levels was often Not A Good Thing, though it could be pushed to improve by the actions of engaged citizens. Later developments only confirmed this feeling. More to follow.
autumnfire1957 about 14 years ago
Palm Sunday
parkersinthehouse about 14 years ago
yaknow evil is evil, sin is sin, corruption … crime …it doesn’t matter who’s better or worse and God will take care of eternity, but to me, these rapists should go to prison like all child offenders. of course they wouldn’t last long …
spelvin2002 about 14 years ago
Gorotor– Your observation is a great example of how the bible has been interpreted and perverted to conform to the agendas and whims of every self-proclaimed prophet from then to the present.
Jaedabee Premium Member about 14 years ago
It’s a trap!
cdward about 14 years ago
My point is precisely that no group of any sort holds a monopoly on either virtue or evil. It permeates all of us pretty much everywhere through time.
If scobber’s point is that anti-religious groups do not contain people who do evil, I guess I’ll have to disagree. While I think any rape qualifies as evil, so do torture and murder, among other things. I can think of at least the Soviet Union and Communist China as groups that were definitely anti-religious yet committed every atrocity you can think of including rape in all its varieties.
CorosiveFrog Premium Member about 14 years ago
^ Ditto. As a Buddhist, I know what you are talking about. The Dalai-Lama had to flee to India for a reason and the Panchen Lama was captured as a child. To this day, we don’t even know where he is or if he’s alive.
Priests can’t be prosecuted because of a technicality; they are citizens of their nations AND the Vatican.
But IMHO, they have the right to vote, therefore, they should be subject to trial. In the past, those priests used every trick in the book to influence the politics of their countries way beyond their right to vote.
HabaneroBuck about 14 years ago
Well, in case anyone forgot (or never knew), one of the great motivators for the Reformation was the corrupt state of the clergy, and the lack of a Biblical imperative for the offices of priest or pope.
Motivemagus about 14 years ago
Habanero, agreed on the first point, but the latter is not quite true - it’s fairer to say that early Protestants disagreed that the Biblical sources justified a hierarchy and especially a Pope. (Especially where, I note cynically, they could bypass the hierarchy and make themselves authorities.) Roman Catholics point to Matthew 16:13-20, where Christ says “on this rock I will build my Church,” referring to Peter. Peter is always named first of the Apostles, mentioned as one of those few at special events like the Transfiguration and is referred to as the spokesman of the apostles. I think more generally some Protestants (especially Calvinists) feel that you need no intermediary between you and your God (like priests, and especially a hierarchy of priests), which was also one of the drivers to translating the Bible. Not for literal interpretation, I note, as modern fundamentalists treat it, but to come to your own conclusions. cdward is considerably more of an expert on this. I am angry and sorrowful at the Church, but I have evidently seen more saintliness than Atma, because I have met Catholic priests and nuns who were impressively holy, even when they were CEOs of organizations.
HabaneroBuck about 14 years ago
Christ is the rock to which Jesus referred in “upon this Rock…” He called Peter, “a pebble”, while referring to the statement, “thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God” as the Rock. I am familiar with Catholic apologetics. Furthermore, the evidence that Paul was the founder of the “Gentile” church while Peter was evangelizing Jews is so overwhelming as to be incontestable.
Yes, “sola scriptura” is the phrase we associate with the Reformation era today. No more hierarchy…and no more priests, certainly not celibate ones!
If (when) a priest committed a sexual assault against a child, he needed to be arrested and prosecuted. The Catholic institution did just the opposite, attempting to cover it up for years. There is really no excuse.
Dutchboy1 about 14 years ago
HabaneroBuck is right in that the rock that Jesus referred to which his congregation would be built on was himself. Peter was never referred to in the Bible as ‘first of the Apostles’ or ‘spokesman of the apostles’. While he was a good man and always tried to do what was right, he was also impulsive and a good example of what not to do.
Motivemagus about 14 years ago
Habanero, I agree that there is no excuse. I was merely clarifying Catholic beliefs. Yours and Dutchboy’s comments are from your perspective. I don’t question that there is plenty of room for disagreement here…
fritzoid Premium Member about 14 years ago
^ “The idea of claiming authority from a mythical story is rather strange…”
…said the man with the picture of a hereditary monarch on all his money. ;-)
“Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.”