It seems that the Obama message is to beat the cons to the government cuts before they propose. This way Obama can minimize the damge they really want to cause.
The unions in WI would still have better health care and pension than most people in the state. The union would not be gone. Everyone says “the unions agreed to Walker’s demands, why does he want to take away their rights?” First of all they aren’t rights they are benefits. If they were rights then I should have them as well. Second, after saying they agreed to his demands, they went and quickly signed contracts that didn’t give anything. So much for giving in to his demands. If they keep their ability to bargain for benefits then next contract they would push to get back anything they might loose now. So everything would be right back were it started. There is no reason why I should pay more taxes to give a group of people better pay and benefits than I have.
There’s a lot of validity to this toon and it really isn’t localized to the current administration, so there’s no reason for any one particular group to take offense. We wouldn’t be in a different situation regardless.
The BS in Wisconsin (and elsewhere) is adding fuel to the fire, depriving Public Workers of pension funds or Health Care Benefits won’t solve the economic disaster we’re in the middle of.
Get you talking points straight. Walker is NOT depriving the state employees of anything. He is asking for a 5% contrib. to their own fund, which they will get back at retirement. Also 12% towards their health care, that’s depriving? The kicker the unions don’t like is allowing workers a choice if they want to pay union dues/fees, and allowing districts to opt out of bloated union run health care. Districts will be able to shop for health care at a HUGE savings.
This is ALL about UNION MONEY! Period! The union doesn’t give a rat’s patute about the workers.
The 14 Wisconsin Democratic senators who fled to Illinois share more than just political sympathy with the public employees and unions targeted by Gov. Scott Walker’s budget-repair bill. The Senate Democrats count on those in the public sector as a key funding source for their campaigns. In fact, one out of every five dollars raised by those Democratic senators in the past two election cycles came from public employees, such as teachers and firefighters, and their unions, a Journal Sentinel analysis of campaign records shows.
And how much did these same unions donate to BHO???
You sit there and tell me it’s about the workers…? You are living under a rock. You are a drone, you watch CNN and MSNBC and just repeat talking points that have been force fed to you.
M Kitt, Funding for employee retirement programs in Wisconsin (and elsewhere) came from worker contributions, they’re “Payroll Deductions” directly payed out of member salaries.
This flat out WRONG! Funding for their retirement comes 100% from the taxpayer. There is no payroll deduction at all. That is what the issue is all about. They get guaranteed retirement benefits. It has nothing to do with the market. The fund can’t be raided. When they retire they get so much money based on their best three years times by years of service multiplied by a percentage. All the budget tricks in the world can’t take that away from them. Only Walker’s plan can change that and he is just asking them to contribute some of their own money to it. Get your facts straight!
the information provided here points out that they achieve greater benefits at a significant cost to wages.
Wisconsin state employees have also been required to take pay cuts in terms of furlough days.
Additionally, Police, Firefighters, and other public safety officials are NOT affected by this union busting. So it is targeted to specific unions. And why’s that?
ssharpee sez: “They get guaranteed retirement benefits.”
Jealous much? The state can argue that the benefit is too generous, that they can’t afford it, etc. But Walker isn’t out to fix his budget, he’s out to destroy unions. The people have seen through his ruse.
“There is no payroll deduction at all.” The pension is PART of their total compensation. It’s understood by both sides that they are giving up current wages for a future benefit. The employer & the union negotiate the details, but Walker wants to take that right away.
“Only Walker’s plan can change that and he is just asking them to contribute some of their own money to it.” The unions agreed to this. That wasn’t good enough for Walker. Once again & maybe you’ll hear me this time: WALKER DOESN’T WANT TO BALANCE THE WISCONSIN BUDGET, HE WANTS TO DESTROY THE UNIONS.
If you want to go back to the Gilded Age, build yourself a time machine. I’d like to keep the hard won benefits & protections we’ve fought & bled for over the last 100 years.
The article you refer to states “The pension plan is the direct result of deferred compensation- money that employees would have been paid as cash salary but choose, instead, to have placed in the state operated pension fund where the money can be professionally invested (at a lower cost of management) for the future.”
Everyone’s retirement is DEFERRED. I contribute to a 401k. There is a line item on my pay stub showing how much. The state employee has no such line item. If he was funding his own retirement 100% as this ridiculous article states, then they would be taking home an empty paycheck. But no, it is 100% funded by the taxpayer. You can call retirement deferred compensation all you want. But it is still taxpayer money going to it. If it wasn’t retirement money, then they could claim it anytime they want.
Rall has never been a fan of Obama. He correctly realized that Obama is pretty much a centrist, who has all too often been willing to put the demands of Big Corporations over what’s good for the people.
The GOP is even more cynical. They don’t even pay lip service to the common weal. The rank & file of the Tea Party is justifiably upset, but they are deluded about lifting the shackles of of government oppression. Palin, Bachman, Boehner & McConnell only want to lift the shackles from Big Money, so they can continue denying the average person his or her fair share of our economic success.
I’m pretty sure if you asked him if he’d rather have President McCain, his answer would be a resounding, ‘NO!’
The courts have already ruled the pension fund is PROPERTY and the state can’t touch it. The reason the unions are against this is because Walker wants to stop the automatic union dues being handled by the government. The employees would have to do it themselves. He also wants the local governments to be able to go outside the union run health plan for health insurance. This would save $65 million dollars. Sounds like the unions are getting a nice kickback by forcing all union employees to get insurance through them.
If Walker’s plan goes through or not, the amount of money these people get for retirement doesn’t change one cent! The only difference is they would have to contribute something to it!
I’m just wondering why the right wing was not so up in arms about pensions and benefits coming from tax dollars when Wall Street gave out million dollar bonuses with TARP money (aka our tax dollars at work to save millionaires from losing money)?
Kitt, tempting as it is to just ignore you, in the interest of fairness I’ll give you a brief answer. I am not attracted to extreme views…right or left.
Night-Gaunt49 first you say “Unlike you, I have not seen their pay stubs” then you assume I haven’t seen one. Make up your mind? I do have first hand knowledge ok. I live in WI. I have family members affected by this. The unions bargained for better pension and got it. It’s still a taxpayer funded pension not ‘deferred compensation.”
Even the article M Kitt talks about says “The pension plan is the direct result of deferred compensation- money that employees would have been paid as cash salary but choose, instead, to have placed in the state operated pension fund where the money can be professionally invested (at a lower cost of management) for the future.”
See how even he calls it a PENSION PLAN FOR THE FUTURE! Another way of saying retirement! “A Rose by any other name…”
^^ False
http://politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/feb/22/scott-walker/wisconsin-gov-scott-walker-says-he-campaigned-his-/
“Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker says he campaigned on his budget repair plan, including curtailing collective bargaining “: False
The current overreach is the $140 million in tax breaks to corporations Governor Walker gave out this year which will take effect next year and will put another hole int he budget.
The money requested to help “balance the budget” from the targeted unions has already been offered up [fact]. It is not a matter of money or it would have ended right there.
Additionally, not all unions are the target of this bill. Firefighters, police workers, etc. can retain their unions. This is a target on more “vulnerable” unions, because you’re not going to gain a lot of public clout by attacking public safety workers.
OK, lets see if we can get down to the basics. Is this deferred compensation salary or retirement? Answer: retirement. Is it payed by the employee or the taxpayers? Answer: taxpayers. Is anything deducted from the employees check to pay for it? Answer: No! Unless you count their portion of state taxes. They don’t mail in a check for their retirement. They don’t have anything deducted from their check for it. Therefore their retirement is 100% funded by TAXPAYERS! This bleeep about calling it deferred compensation is just word games!If your whole argument is that it is called deferred compensation, then you don’t have an argument. My wife has deferred compensation for her retirement. Her employer pays that, she doesn’t. Same thing with the unions. Only difference is the taxpayers are the employer!
I gotta give you points. Usually it’s some right wing nut job who decides to hijack the page and run on forever, but you’ve reminded us, once again that no point on the compass has a monopoly on ranting. It’s time for your meds now.
As I stated, the tax breaks go into effect next year. However, considering they’re having budget problems, I continue to ask how it is that Governor Walker can give away $140 million in tax breaks to corporations when the budget is indeed in trouble for years to come (still have debt to pay off)?
^You want job creation? Get us out of NAFTA, GAAAT, and WTO now! 1.5 million jobs were created last year and they were all outside the United States. Its not taxes or big government that’s killing us…actually I take that last one back.
Its big government that’s allowing these companies to go off shore by giving them tax breaks to do it. You want them back? Just take away their incentives, tax the heck out of imports that can be produced in this country, and you’ll see them come back here with all those jobs Habib and Cheng are doing for a dollar an hour.
“What part of “job creation” do you not understand?”
Paying several million dollars of tax payer money for a couple of moderate jobs at the expense of less taxpayer money for equivalent-paying jobs makes no sense fiscally.
And tax cuts haven’t created jobs, that much should be obvious from the past 10 years.
Your opinion is TRULY Reading Impaired Induced
There is no DEDUCTION from their pay as deferred compensation. It is part of their compensation but it is payed for by the taxpayers, not by the employee. Is there a reason that those words can’t get past your eyes? Just because they bargained for good benefits doesn’t mean the tooth fairy is paying for them. I am and so is every other Wi taxpayer! I don’t care if it is deferred, gift wrapped or shoved up their rear end. It still came from taxpayers! Is English your second language? They get a salary AND they get benefits. They don’t pay for the benefits out of their salary! Understand?
cdward about 13 years ago
Ted, you’ve gone all Republican. Now, if you’d located this in Wisconsin, maybe…
walruscarver2000 about 13 years ago
“Egad! This has never happened before to either party. Whatever shall we do?”
AdmNaismith about 13 years ago
The truth stings.
WarBush about 13 years ago
It seems that the Obama message is to beat the cons to the government cuts before they propose. This way Obama can minimize the damge they really want to cause.
So yeah Rall has a point.
walruscarver2000 about 13 years ago
Kitt, nothing else?
ssharpee about 13 years ago
The unions in WI would still have better health care and pension than most people in the state. The union would not be gone. Everyone says “the unions agreed to Walker’s demands, why does he want to take away their rights?” First of all they aren’t rights they are benefits. If they were rights then I should have them as well. Second, after saying they agreed to his demands, they went and quickly signed contracts that didn’t give anything. So much for giving in to his demands. If they keep their ability to bargain for benefits then next contract they would push to get back anything they might loose now. So everything would be right back were it started. There is no reason why I should pay more taxes to give a group of people better pay and benefits than I have.
Jaedabee Premium Member about 13 years ago
There’s a lot of validity to this toon and it really isn’t localized to the current administration, so there’s no reason for any one particular group to take offense. We wouldn’t be in a different situation regardless.
josefw about 13 years ago
Kitt Said:
The BS in Wisconsin (and elsewhere) is adding fuel to the fire, depriving Public Workers of pension funds or Health Care Benefits won’t solve the economic disaster we’re in the middle of.
Get you talking points straight. Walker is NOT depriving the state employees of anything. He is asking for a 5% contrib. to their own fund, which they will get back at retirement. Also 12% towards their health care, that’s depriving? The kicker the unions don’t like is allowing workers a choice if they want to pay union dues/fees, and allowing districts to opt out of bloated union run health care. Districts will be able to shop for health care at a HUGE savings.
This is ALL about UNION MONEY! Period! The union doesn’t give a rat’s patute about the workers.
The 14 Wisconsin Democratic senators who fled to Illinois share more than just political sympathy with the public employees and unions targeted by Gov. Scott Walker’s budget-repair bill. The Senate Democrats count on those in the public sector as a key funding source for their campaigns. In fact, one out of every five dollars raised by those Democratic senators in the past two election cycles came from public employees, such as teachers and firefighters, and their unions, a Journal Sentinel analysis of campaign records shows.
And how much did these same unions donate to BHO??? You sit there and tell me it’s about the workers…? You are living under a rock. You are a drone, you watch CNN and MSNBC and just repeat talking points that have been force fed to you.
ssharpee about 13 years ago
M Kitt, Funding for employee retirement programs in Wisconsin (and elsewhere) came from worker contributions, they’re “Payroll Deductions” directly payed out of member salaries.
This flat out WRONG! Funding for their retirement comes 100% from the taxpayer. There is no payroll deduction at all. That is what the issue is all about. They get guaranteed retirement benefits. It has nothing to do with the market. The fund can’t be raided. When they retire they get so much money based on their best three years times by years of service multiplied by a percentage. All the budget tricks in the world can’t take that away from them. Only Walker’s plan can change that and he is just asking them to contribute some of their own money to it. Get your facts straight!
Jaedabee Premium Member about 13 years ago
http://politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/feb/18/club-growth/group-says-wisconsin-state-workers-havent-had-sacr/
According to this one, indeed, Wisconsin state employees do not pay into their pension. HOWEVER, …
http://politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2010/dec/12/bryan-kennedy/union-leader-says-wisconsin-state-employees-earn-a/
the information provided here points out that they achieve greater benefits at a significant cost to wages.
Wisconsin state employees have also been required to take pay cuts in terms of furlough days.
Additionally, Police, Firefighters, and other public safety officials are NOT affected by this union busting. So it is targeted to specific unions. And why’s that?
Uncle Joe Premium Member about 13 years ago
ssharpee sez: “They get guaranteed retirement benefits.”
Jealous much? The state can argue that the benefit is too generous, that they can’t afford it, etc. But Walker isn’t out to fix his budget, he’s out to destroy unions. The people have seen through his ruse.
“There is no payroll deduction at all.” The pension is PART of their total compensation. It’s understood by both sides that they are giving up current wages for a future benefit. The employer & the union negotiate the details, but Walker wants to take that right away.
“Only Walker’s plan can change that and he is just asking them to contribute some of their own money to it.” The unions agreed to this. That wasn’t good enough for Walker. Once again & maybe you’ll hear me this time: WALKER DOESN’T WANT TO BALANCE THE WISCONSIN BUDGET, HE WANTS TO DESTROY THE UNIONS.
If you want to go back to the Gilded Age, build yourself a time machine. I’d like to keep the hard won benefits & protections we’ve fought & bled for over the last 100 years.
ssharpee about 13 years ago
The article you refer to states “The pension plan is the direct result of deferred compensation- money that employees would have been paid as cash salary but choose, instead, to have placed in the state operated pension fund where the money can be professionally invested (at a lower cost of management) for the future.”
Everyone’s retirement is DEFERRED. I contribute to a 401k. There is a line item on my pay stub showing how much. The state employee has no such line item. If he was funding his own retirement 100% as this ridiculous article states, then they would be taking home an empty paycheck. But no, it is 100% funded by the taxpayer. You can call retirement deferred compensation all you want. But it is still taxpayer money going to it. If it wasn’t retirement money, then they could claim it anytime they want.
Uncle Joe Premium Member about 13 years ago
Rall has never been a fan of Obama. He correctly realized that Obama is pretty much a centrist, who has all too often been willing to put the demands of Big Corporations over what’s good for the people.
The GOP is even more cynical. They don’t even pay lip service to the common weal. The rank & file of the Tea Party is justifiably upset, but they are deluded about lifting the shackles of of government oppression. Palin, Bachman, Boehner & McConnell only want to lift the shackles from Big Money, so they can continue denying the average person his or her fair share of our economic success.
I’m pretty sure if you asked him if he’d rather have President McCain, his answer would be a resounding, ‘NO!’
ssharpee about 13 years ago
The courts have already ruled the pension fund is PROPERTY and the state can’t touch it. The reason the unions are against this is because Walker wants to stop the automatic union dues being handled by the government. The employees would have to do it themselves. He also wants the local governments to be able to go outside the union run health plan for health insurance. This would save $65 million dollars. Sounds like the unions are getting a nice kickback by forcing all union employees to get insurance through them.
If Walker’s plan goes through or not, the amount of money these people get for retirement doesn’t change one cent! The only difference is they would have to contribute something to it!
thirdrailmiche about 13 years ago
I’m just wondering why the right wing was not so up in arms about pensions and benefits coming from tax dollars when Wall Street gave out million dollar bonuses with TARP money (aka our tax dollars at work to save millionaires from losing money)?
walruscarver2000 about 13 years ago
Kitt, tempting as it is to just ignore you, in the interest of fairness I’ll give you a brief answer. I am not attracted to extreme views…right or left.
ssharpee about 13 years ago
Night-Gaunt49 first you say “Unlike you, I have not seen their pay stubs” then you assume I haven’t seen one. Make up your mind? I do have first hand knowledge ok. I live in WI. I have family members affected by this. The unions bargained for better pension and got it. It’s still a taxpayer funded pension not ‘deferred compensation.”
Even the article M Kitt talks about says “The pension plan is the direct result of deferred compensation- money that employees would have been paid as cash salary but choose, instead, to have placed in the state operated pension fund where the money can be professionally invested (at a lower cost of management) for the future.”
See how even he calls it a PENSION PLAN FOR THE FUTURE! Another way of saying retirement! “A Rose by any other name…”
sheldon1948 about 13 years ago
No one is busting the unions…They are doing it to themselves by over reaching demands to the TAX PAYER!!!
Jaedabee Premium Member about 13 years ago
^^ False http://politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/feb/22/scott-walker/wisconsin-gov-scott-walker-says-he-campaigned-his-/ “Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker says he campaigned on his budget repair plan, including curtailing collective bargaining “: False
The current overreach is the $140 million in tax breaks to corporations Governor Walker gave out this year which will take effect next year and will put another hole int he budget.
The money requested to help “balance the budget” from the targeted unions has already been offered up [fact]. It is not a matter of money or it would have ended right there.
Additionally, not all unions are the target of this bill. Firefighters, police workers, etc. can retain their unions. This is a target on more “vulnerable” unions, because you’re not going to gain a lot of public clout by attacking public safety workers.
So your statement is completely false.
ChukLitl Premium Member about 13 years ago
31 comments by 1 Pacific, not bad. I thought this ‘toon looked like a burr under the saddle. Wordy cusses, too.
ssharpee about 13 years ago
OK, lets see if we can get down to the basics. Is this deferred compensation salary or retirement? Answer: retirement. Is it payed by the employee or the taxpayers? Answer: taxpayers. Is anything deducted from the employees check to pay for it? Answer: No! Unless you count their portion of state taxes. They don’t mail in a check for their retirement. They don’t have anything deducted from their check for it. Therefore their retirement is 100% funded by TAXPAYERS! This bleeep about calling it deferred compensation is just word games!If your whole argument is that it is called deferred compensation, then you don’t have an argument. My wife has deferred compensation for her retirement. Her employer pays that, she doesn’t. Same thing with the unions. Only difference is the taxpayers are the employer!
josefw about 13 years ago
ssharpee. What part of Wisconsin is your family? I grew up in Milwaukee and lived in West Bend most of my adult life.
Nice post, very accurate!
ssharpee about 13 years ago
Josefw: Madison, born and raised.
walruscarver2000 about 13 years ago
I gotta give you points. Usually it’s some right wing nut job who decides to hijack the page and run on forever, but you’ve reminded us, once again that no point on the compass has a monopoly on ranting. It’s time for your meds now.
Jaedabee Premium Member about 13 years ago
As I stated, the tax breaks go into effect next year. However, considering they’re having budget problems, I continue to ask how it is that Governor Walker can give away $140 million in tax breaks to corporations when the budget is indeed in trouble for years to come (still have debt to pay off)?
bigheadx about 13 years ago
Huh? Sorry, Ted, this dog won’t hunt.
josefw about 13 years ago
Jade, It’s a budgeted amount trying to lure NEW BUSINESS INTO THE STATE!
What part of “job creation” do you not understand?
WarBush about 13 years ago
^You want job creation? Get us out of NAFTA, GAAAT, and WTO now! 1.5 million jobs were created last year and they were all outside the United States. Its not taxes or big government that’s killing us…actually I take that last one back.
Its big government that’s allowing these companies to go off shore by giving them tax breaks to do it. You want them back? Just take away their incentives, tax the heck out of imports that can be produced in this country, and you’ll see them come back here with all those jobs Habib and Cheng are doing for a dollar an hour.
Jaedabee Premium Member about 13 years ago
“What part of “job creation” do you not understand?”
Paying several million dollars of tax payer money for a couple of moderate jobs at the expense of less taxpayer money for equivalent-paying jobs makes no sense fiscally.And tax cuts haven’t created jobs, that much should be obvious from the past 10 years.
WarBush about 13 years ago
^You mean 30. We’ve been at this for quite some time now.
ssharpee about 13 years ago
M Kitt
Your opinion is TRULY Reading Impaired Induced There is no DEDUCTION from their pay as deferred compensation. It is part of their compensation but it is payed for by the taxpayers, not by the employee. Is there a reason that those words can’t get past your eyes? Just because they bargained for good benefits doesn’t mean the tooth fairy is paying for them. I am and so is every other Wi taxpayer! I don’t care if it is deferred, gift wrapped or shoved up their rear end. It still came from taxpayers! Is English your second language? They get a salary AND they get benefits. They don’t pay for the benefits out of their salary! Understand?