President Obama is killing the guys with guns saying Death to America. He is agreeing with the other guy by ordering that the refugees and others be vetted, and agreeing with the act of Congress restricting travel to the US of people recently traveling to certain mid-east countries.
Strange they would be yelling “Death to America”. After all America just invaded their country/region, killed and maimed hundreds of thousands of innocent people, destroyed infrastructure necessary for quality of life, replaced their political system, and destabilized the region for decades to come. Oh yes, it’s because they hate our freedoms. The insanity!
Colorado Springs, Roseburg, Aurora, hmm, radicals yes, Muslim no, out to destroy what America stands for, yes.
A targeted response toward real bad guys is one thing, but to brand all for one: think again about Colorado Springs, Roseburg and Aurora, and think about all those WASPS and “good Christians” we truly do have cause to fear.
Alexander the Great died 300 years before the creation of Islam. The aggression of Islam has NEVER been in response to anything other than their desire to conquer and convert. But feel free to ignore the entire history of Islam when it interferes with your pre-conceived notions.
Barpluc: when the Christian crusaders took Jerusalem, they killed everything there. When Saladin took it back, he allowed them to leave with their concubines, and hangers on. Ignoring the history of Christianity is a long history of pats on their own backs, and sweeping lots of facts under the carpet. Well, like the Inquisition for instance.
The real key, as one song by Jesus Jones noted, is for the world to wake up from history. Both sides need to move on from that history, forgive that history, and instead address the right here, right now.“Yes, many Christians and Muslims killed many innocents throughout history. But today is a new day, and I will not kill.” Something like that.
Just for the record, Alexander died in 323 BC, while the rise of Islam was circa 600 AD — nearly 900 years after Alexander’s demise.But so what? I suggest again that we stop arguing history and snarking at each other, stop clinging onto negative historical events to vilify one group or another, and instead move on from history, forgive history as it were, and say “Today is the dawning of a new day.” If the world would only address the now without the baggage of the past, and progress from there…
But I never said anything about forgetting history, did I?You misunderstand. I am talking about forgiving history, extracting ourselves from its clutches and from the notion that since X party did such-and-such to Y party, Z number of years ago, then X party is “bad” and Y party should resent them and their descendants forever for that event that happened long ago. Or, that “somebody has to pay” today for something that ancestors did hundreds or thousands of years ago.Wake up from history — that doesn’t mean forget it, it means just what it says: waking up from it, seeing the new day, starting there and progressing from the here-now. That would not be doom, it would literally be an awakening of a new planet.
Sure you can. The phrase “forgive and forget” is incorrect, as it is entirely possible to have the full knowledge of something that happened in the past while also forgiving that same event. In fact, knowledge and understanding of an event is necessary for forgiveness of it. In terms of the history of Muslims and Christians, it would be as I said before: "Yes, many Christians and Muslims killed many innocents throughout history. But today is a new day, and I will not kill.”
“Shock and awe”, was a perfect example of radical jihad practiced by Christians. Wrong country, wrong targets, wrong victims, but “payback” was supposed to make us all feel better, even if we did get over 4,000 of our own troops killed to catch Saddam, who had nothing to do with 9/11.
Actually, in terms of the phrase that you used:" holding on to it” versus the concept that I used: having knowledge of it — you are correct. You cannot forgive if you are still holding on to resentment, thoughts of revenge or retribution, and so on, about that past history or past event. This goes back to what I was saying previously: that we stop clinging to, holding on to, negative historical events as a way to vilify one party or the other, that we extract ourselves from history’s clutches and from the notion that since X party did such-and-such to Y party, Z number of years ago, then X party is “bad” and Y party should resent them and their descendants forever.Forgiveness is done with full knowledge of that history, but is a release from the “holding onto” of the above notions regarding that history. And it is entirely within our grasp to do so, if only the world would try.
Absolutely. As I think I’ve said here, the world needs to take (and, ever being the optimist, I believe that despite outward appearances, is taking) steps toward the ultimate realization that we are all one.
Hey, don’t take this the wrong way, but…Sometimes the way you word your posts, I’m not sure if you are sincerely trying to help me out, or are just trying to be a contrarian smart aleck. :-)I must admit I thought the latter at first, because I was not aware that we were really on opposite sides here, at least not significantly so. Also, I wasn’t aware that I needed to be “helped out” — thought I expressed myself pretty succinctly, in fact. But I think I probably read you incorrectly at first, and you are really trying to add to the point that I was making. I’m probably over-analyzing, as I have a tendency to do sometimes.Anyway…I see what you are referring to, but for me it goes far beyond just a “Truth and Reconciliation Commission,” or court, though that was generally a positive development considering the alternative. But beyond what I’ve already said, mine is more of an all-encompassing wish, or dream, for a different global mindset, one that rises above duplicity (in the dictionary sense and in the archaic sense of “doubleness” and the notion of black-and-white rights/wrongs), rethinking the idea of “punishment”, I could go on but you might see a glimpse here of where I’m going with this…That’s all from me tonight…have a good evening.
What you’re saying makes perfect sense. It’s just that I am confused about what side you’re on. Other than our back-and-forth about the idea that one can forgive without having to forget, I didn’t think that we were on opposite sides here. Maybe I need some clarification of what your position is. Are you opposed to my idea of “waking up from history”, as I explained it?Good discussion, by the way.
Fair enough. But you have no position or opinion on the subject? To me, it is difficult to imagine a rational person wanting or ultimately dreaming for anything to the contrary than a worldwide reconciliation of differences and forgiveness of historical “violations” upon one another, breaking the endless cycle of resentment and revenge. Yet I know that there are many in this world who have not yet arrived at that way of thinking. (This is not referring to you; rather to those who would actively choose to keep that dreaded cycle going.) Analyzing pros and cons is a fine method for many ideas, but for me this type of idea doesn’t really require that. Can’t see that reason is lacking in this case, and can’t see any cons to the end result. :-)
Yes, I believe that was the only argument here. :)I maintain that one needs to have a full knowledge of an event or history of events — and probably more than just knowledge, but an understanding of the same, and by understanding I mean a way of looking at the history from both sides of the equation, looking at it from a compassion for or even love of your enemies (as Jesus had advised, difficult as that may be to do at times), and then from that point of knowledge and recognition, forgiving those who were involved in the event or history of events. There is no forgetting involved in such a process, only a looking at the same events through different lenses.
leallred over 8 years ago
President Obama is killing the guys with guns saying Death to America. He is agreeing with the other guy by ordering that the refugees and others be vetted, and agreeing with the act of Congress restricting travel to the US of people recently traveling to certain mid-east countries.
Gypsy8 over 8 years ago
Strange they would be yelling “Death to America”. After all America just invaded their country/region, killed and maimed hundreds of thousands of innocent people, destroyed infrastructure necessary for quality of life, replaced their political system, and destabilized the region for decades to come. Oh yes, it’s because they hate our freedoms. The insanity!
DrDon1 over 8 years ago
More Obama bashing and fear mongering from Gorrell.
lonecat over 8 years ago
Don’t forget the Trojan War.
Dtroutma over 8 years ago
Colorado Springs, Roseburg, Aurora, hmm, radicals yes, Muslim no, out to destroy what America stands for, yes.
A targeted response toward real bad guys is one thing, but to brand all for one: think again about Colorado Springs, Roseburg and Aurora, and think about all those WASPS and “good Christians” we truly do have cause to fear.
barpluc over 8 years ago
Alexander the Great died 300 years before the creation of Islam. The aggression of Islam has NEVER been in response to anything other than their desire to conquer and convert. But feel free to ignore the entire history of Islam when it interferes with your pre-conceived notions.
Dtroutma over 8 years ago
Barpluc: when the Christian crusaders took Jerusalem, they killed everything there. When Saladin took it back, he allowed them to leave with their concubines, and hangers on. Ignoring the history of Christianity is a long history of pats on their own backs, and sweeping lots of facts under the carpet. Well, like the Inquisition for instance.
æ² over 8 years ago
The real key, as one song by Jesus Jones noted, is for the world to wake up from history. Both sides need to move on from that history, forgive that history, and instead address the right here, right now.“Yes, many Christians and Muslims killed many innocents throughout history. But today is a new day, and I will not kill.” Something like that.
æ² over 8 years ago
Just for the record, Alexander died in 323 BC, while the rise of Islam was circa 600 AD — nearly 900 years after Alexander’s demise.But so what? I suggest again that we stop arguing history and snarking at each other, stop clinging onto negative historical events to vilify one group or another, and instead move on from history, forgive history as it were, and say “Today is the dawning of a new day.” If the world would only address the now without the baggage of the past, and progress from there…
æ² over 8 years ago
But I never said anything about forgetting history, did I?You misunderstand. I am talking about forgiving history, extracting ourselves from its clutches and from the notion that since X party did such-and-such to Y party, Z number of years ago, then X party is “bad” and Y party should resent them and their descendants forever for that event that happened long ago. Or, that “somebody has to pay” today for something that ancestors did hundreds or thousands of years ago.Wake up from history — that doesn’t mean forget it, it means just what it says: waking up from it, seeing the new day, starting there and progressing from the here-now. That would not be doom, it would literally be an awakening of a new planet.
æ² over 8 years ago
Sure you can. The phrase “forgive and forget” is incorrect, as it is entirely possible to have the full knowledge of something that happened in the past while also forgiving that same event. In fact, knowledge and understanding of an event is necessary for forgiveness of it. In terms of the history of Muslims and Christians, it would be as I said before: "Yes, many Christians and Muslims killed many innocents throughout history. But today is a new day, and I will not kill.”
Dtroutma over 8 years ago
“Shock and awe”, was a perfect example of radical jihad practiced by Christians. Wrong country, wrong targets, wrong victims, but “payback” was supposed to make us all feel better, even if we did get over 4,000 of our own troops killed to catch Saddam, who had nothing to do with 9/11.
Now we’re supposed to “conquer” Syria?
æ² over 8 years ago
Actually, in terms of the phrase that you used:" holding on to it” versus the concept that I used: having knowledge of it — you are correct. You cannot forgive if you are still holding on to resentment, thoughts of revenge or retribution, and so on, about that past history or past event. This goes back to what I was saying previously: that we stop clinging to, holding on to, negative historical events as a way to vilify one party or the other, that we extract ourselves from history’s clutches and from the notion that since X party did such-and-such to Y party, Z number of years ago, then X party is “bad” and Y party should resent them and their descendants forever.Forgiveness is done with full knowledge of that history, but is a release from the “holding onto” of the above notions regarding that history. And it is entirely within our grasp to do so, if only the world would try.
æ² over 8 years ago
Absolutely. As I think I’ve said here, the world needs to take (and, ever being the optimist, I believe that despite outward appearances, is taking) steps toward the ultimate realization that we are all one.
æ² over 8 years ago
Hey, don’t take this the wrong way, but…Sometimes the way you word your posts, I’m not sure if you are sincerely trying to help me out, or are just trying to be a contrarian smart aleck. :-)I must admit I thought the latter at first, because I was not aware that we were really on opposite sides here, at least not significantly so. Also, I wasn’t aware that I needed to be “helped out” — thought I expressed myself pretty succinctly, in fact. But I think I probably read you incorrectly at first, and you are really trying to add to the point that I was making. I’m probably over-analyzing, as I have a tendency to do sometimes.Anyway…I see what you are referring to, but for me it goes far beyond just a “Truth and Reconciliation Commission,” or court, though that was generally a positive development considering the alternative. But beyond what I’ve already said, mine is more of an all-encompassing wish, or dream, for a different global mindset, one that rises above duplicity (in the dictionary sense and in the archaic sense of “doubleness” and the notion of black-and-white rights/wrongs), rethinking the idea of “punishment”, I could go on but you might see a glimpse here of where I’m going with this…That’s all from me tonight…have a good evening.
æ² over 8 years ago
What you’re saying makes perfect sense. It’s just that I am confused about what side you’re on. Other than our back-and-forth about the idea that one can forgive without having to forget, I didn’t think that we were on opposite sides here. Maybe I need some clarification of what your position is. Are you opposed to my idea of “waking up from history”, as I explained it?Good discussion, by the way.
æ² over 8 years ago
Fair enough. But you have no position or opinion on the subject? To me, it is difficult to imagine a rational person wanting or ultimately dreaming for anything to the contrary than a worldwide reconciliation of differences and forgiveness of historical “violations” upon one another, breaking the endless cycle of resentment and revenge. Yet I know that there are many in this world who have not yet arrived at that way of thinking. (This is not referring to you; rather to those who would actively choose to keep that dreaded cycle going.) Analyzing pros and cons is a fine method for many ideas, but for me this type of idea doesn’t really require that. Can’t see that reason is lacking in this case, and can’t see any cons to the end result. :-)
æ² over 8 years ago
Yes, I believe that was the only argument here. :)I maintain that one needs to have a full knowledge of an event or history of events — and probably more than just knowledge, but an understanding of the same, and by understanding I mean a way of looking at the history from both sides of the equation, looking at it from a compassion for or even love of your enemies (as Jesus had advised, difficult as that may be to do at times), and then from that point of knowledge and recognition, forgiving those who were involved in the event or history of events. There is no forgetting involved in such a process, only a looking at the same events through different lenses.