To be honest, the welfare state is ever-increasingly putting the shackles on the productive class of society, not the segment of society that depends on it.
Sorry, you are dead wrong. If you want to study hard, in a field in demand, and work hard, any able bodied person can get a high paying job earning 100K or better. It took me 2 years of college, 6 years in the Navy and then 2 years on the job. No one helped me get the job, just my qualifications.
Its a nice try Michael but what we lack in this country more than anything else is personal responsibility for ones self. On this the 70th anniversary of the end of the war in Europe our leaders and a big percentage of our population is looking for someone to blame for their problems just as Germany found scapegoats. That did not work out well for Europe 70 years ago. I wonder where our road of placing blame will lead us?
How many Liberals are living in gated WHITE (less than 5% Black) communities? Do they go to work where there is armed security?Now, if those rich Democrats (15 million) would let one poor Black live in their spare bedroom and borrow one of their spare cars, Welfare Reform would change overnight. Imagine not paying taxes and instead being personally responsibile for accomplishing: Feeding, Health Care, Education and Employment of an individual that says ‘I want freedom’. Just think how happy you would be to see them get their own lodging and be independent.
Ramirez could have correctly made those shackled feet any color. The Welfare State (Humanism’s effort to replace God who Created mankind and provided every need in the created earth) kills the godly instinct and command to “work to provide for yourself and your family.”-I remember in the Cold War Era, learning that in the USSR the communists took control of everything, including the production of food and used food to teach children to thank the State, not God, for their daily bread. That is Satan’s war against the Creator that he started in Heaven and brought to earth beginning in Eden to trick Adam and Eve into choosing SIN to pollute all their dna/gene bearing children with the evil sin nature, that cursed God’s perfect earth, including the animals and nature. Worship of the State is extremely ruinous to humanity.
Total number of Americans on welfare 11,400,000,Total number of Americans on food stamps 41,700,000,Total number of Americans on unemployment insurance 10,200,000,Percent of the US population on welfare 4.1%
http://www.statisticbrain.com/welfare-statistics/
The above numbers include unemployment insurance which companies pay for. Subsidies for Agriculture especially big Ag. Government buys surplus and props up agriculture mainly in middle America. Government then use this in welfare and school breakfast, lunch, programs. Congressmen from farm states are one of the reason welfare is not going to disappear. Yet there conservative voters can not make the connection."In 2010, there were 10.5 million individuals classified as “working poor” (persons who spent at least 27 weeks in the labor force—that is, working or looking for work—but whose incomes still fell below the official poverty level); the number of working poor was little changed from 2009." http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2012/ted_20120405.htm The working poor on welfare subsides low wages of companies and corporations. Essentially, welfare for people is actually welfare for companies and we are supplementing company wages to their poor employees. 35 Statistics About The Working Poor In America That Will Blow Your Mindhttp://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/35-statistics-about-the-working-poor-in-america-that-will-blow-your-mind#9 Today, the United States actually has a higher percentage of workers doing low wage work than any other major industrialized nation does.
Median household income in the United States has fallen for four consecutive years.Median household income for families with children dropped by a whopping $6,300 between 2001 and 2011.The U.S. economy continues to trade good paying jobs for low paying jobs. 60 percent of the jobs lost during the last recession were mid-wage jobs, but 58 percent of the jobs created since then have been low wage jobs.
Must have blown the circuits of the forum towards the end. So what is the alternative solution if anyone has got it?One thing is companies could reduce the income gap between their executives and their lowest paid employees. There are way to many executives that are not worth the amount they are paid. I have no problem paying people what they are worth, but believe me most of them are not worth what they are paid. If companies paid their lowest workers living wages, we could shrink welfare by a lot.
You are only making my point? We have had tax cuts since Reagan where are the jobs? You want the government to give people jobs or are you for private sector solutions and companies giving people jobs?Lots of people out of work because big banks collapsed the economy under lax regulations because conservative thinking is that companies can police themselves so we need the government to get lout of the way. Nothing but failure which we are still recovering from.Your telling me you think the government is responsible for chain stores closing and people out of work because to much regulation and taxes. No logic.
Ugh… the Pay Gap argument again. Painter, it appears you weren’t around for when I did my analysis on wages, so I’ll post it again.Walmart’s CEO was paid a total compensation package of 25.6m in 2014. This accounts for all the stock, bonds, pay, blah blah blah. Walmart has 1.3 million employees. Let’s say just half of them are full-time employees. That’s still 650,000 employees. That means 40 hours a week. Extrapolating that out, it means it represents 1,352,000,000 man-hours of just full-time employees. I’m not counting even the part-timers in this number. Now, if we take ALL of the CEO’s wages and divide them up evenly (so the CEO makes NOTHING for the year), that translates into an 18-cent-per-hour pay increase. 18 cents. That 18 cents is not going to make any semblance of a meaningful difference to anyone who works there. Accounting for part-time employees, you’re looking at probably closer to the 10-12 cent per hour difference.So, you see… it’s not the “evil CEO’s” that are causing the hardship for the workers at the bottom. You could take the whole board and pay them nothing and pay only the associates, and you’re probably looking at MAYBE $1 per hour difference per employee. CEO’s and other executives are responsible for guiding the business to success. Without them there are no jobs to be had, good bad or otherwise. Not only that, but who are you, or any of us really, to dictate what these people make? If the business wants to keep the corporate leadership that is going to guide the business to be profitable, they pay the people enough to stay.Lastly, the jobs that pay minimum wage are not designed to be “living wage” jobs. Why should they pay a living wage to someone who has no life skills, no work experience, questionable work ethic, and no proven track record? Because when I was growing up, minimum wage jobs were for TEENS. They were not designed for working adults. Instead of criticizing the company’s for not paying a higher wage for these jobs, you should instead criticize the working adults for not adjusting to the times. Once again, we get to feeding the bears. If you pay someone to take a fast-food order or process someone at a checkout $15-20 an hour (because that’s the “living wage” everyone wants to tout), what’s their incentive to go get an education/learn a trade skill/get work experience and get a better job? If you take away the incentive for people to try to get a BETTER job, they won’t go after it. It’s basic human psychology. If you are given a carrot for not working hard, why would you pursue another carrot that requires you to work hard? And yes, I’ve worked fast food when I was a teen. It wasn’t hard.And here’s the last piece that you guys never consider when arguing that minimum wage should be a living wage. What happens to those who fought tooth and nail to get to where they are, now earning a living wage? There are arguably MORE people in the middle class than there are at the poverty level. What about them? Basic Economics happens. Companies pay higher wages, they raise their prices. The middle class purchasing power slides down to the “living wage” levels, and they end up at the bottom rung right alongside the minimum wage workers. So because of selfishness and unwillingness to learn a new skill or pursue an education and work your way up to the middle class, you instead drag the middle class down to the bottom group. That will show the rich! Psh. Just like everything else surrounding social engineering and social justice, we are ruining the middle class because the bottom end won’t work to get to the middle, and the top end doesn’t care because they can afford to not care. So the liberal solution is to raise the water level so the poor can climb higher on the ladder. Too bad it drowns those already further up on the ladder. Great plan, guys!
It always amazes me that today’s Republicans always point to Lincoln in 1865 as opposed to slavery, and for equality, then they ignore 1965, when the southerners flipped parties, and the Democrats became the anti-slaver-pro-civil rights, so those Dixiecrats became Republicans to fight for discrimination.
Across the nation, if you REALLY want to look for the welfare state, you’d better look post-Reagan especially to Wall Street and corporate boardrooms, and the MIC. It’s also interesting that those states getting most back from the feds, in excess of what they pay in, are mostly very red, which explains the same red ink they camplain about, while generating it.
Mr Wiseorator, Mr. Olongapojoe EARNED what he got from the NAVY by BEING in the NAVY, it was NOT given to him by ANYONE. As for the teachers, his parents paid for those teachers, and he continues to pay for those teachers so that was NOT given to him either..As for me, I was not in the military, but I built the businesses I own myself, no one gave them to me and no one helped me to build them who did not expect me to pay dearly for their services. I will say that again; I built these business with NO help from ANYONE who did not expect to get paid dearly for their services. “Well what about the infrastructure your business uses? Taxpayers provided that”; yes I did. My taxes on BOTH my income and my businesses income paid for that infrastructure at a MUCH higher rate than any other citizen. The taxes on the payroll I provide to several hundred employees pays for that infrastructure, those taxes by the require me to pay much higher wages in order to provide a working income to those same employees..You can refuse to hear when someone says that working hard can get you ahead, but working hard for myself got me 1% income. The problem is too many are too afraid to work hard for themselves, they prefer to work hard for someone else, and then, like you, wish to complain that they aren’t getting ahead. You want the security that comes with working for someone else without all the risks to personal wealth and income, without all the demands on time and effort. That’s fine, but don’t complain when others take those risks and make those investments in time and labor and become successful..As for people working low-end, entry level jobs, if you don’t like a crappy income don’t take the crappy job. I’m NOT going to pay a high school grad with a 2.0 GPA more than minimum wage to sweep out the warehouse. If you want a $15 income, you need to provide me with over $20 worth of services just for me to break even. $8.00 an hour to sweep a floor is not slave wages, its ALL that job is worth, at the same time, if you show me better than a 2.0 GPA work ethic I’ll give you a chance to improve your position AND your income by training you to be something other than a broom engine. Additionally that entry level job/income gets you get something you can get NO WHERE else; work experience.
Mr Painter, focusing on the top RATE is misleading as it ignores the thousands of loopholes offered previously that were closed when the top rate was lowered. so that graph is a waste of bandwidth..The effective corporate tax is also misleading. it is IMPOSSIBLE to tax corporations. Taxes are an overhead expense that MUST be added to the price point of services. The consumers of the products provided by corporations MUST pay those taxes when they purchase the products. Raising taxes on corporations means you MUST pay higher prices for their products..The average CEO pay chart is also misleading as it fails to account for the changes in businesses that have occurred in the last 50 years. CEO’s in the 50’s managed on average less than 500 people, CEO’s today are responsible for thousands of people. Look at Wal-Mart, the company people love to hate; the CEO makes $25 million dollars, but he manages 2.3 million employees; he makes less than $11.00 a year per employee. As a CEO I make 40 times as much per employee..As for the 2007-2010 poverty chart is should NOT surprise anyone that when the economy tanks the ranks of poverty increase. However, what we ‘call’ poverty in the us is called top 10% income in most of the rest of the world. Only in the US would ‘poverty’ include air-conditioned homes, cable TV, and smart cell phones. Poverty in the US is a leading cause of obesity in the US, in the rest of the world it means starvation..Basically everything you’ve posted is misleading and only serves to fuel discontent with others instead of fueling a desire to succeed. It is the fodder of the new ‘envy’ politics.
The ‘middle class’, depending on whose definition you use for ‘middle class’, is shrinking because work-force participation is shrinking. It ballooned in the 60’s to the early 70’s and began to shrink in the early 2000’ and is now at nearly the same level as the 60’s. The rate of retirement nearly trebled during that same 15 years. .Just more ‘envy’ politics.
@OldCoal"" you do not KNOW that less than 40% of welfare recipients are black?"".Mr OldCoal, yes we people of color makeup about 40% of the welfare rolls … however we are ONLY 13% of the population so we are represented on the welfare rolls at over THREE TIMES the rate of other races combined..some other interesting numbers about my race:.2012 Numbers(From the FBI Unified Crime Report and the Census Bureau’s National Crime Victimization Survey 2012) White on black robbery 2012—54,360Black on white robbery 2012—278,000In raw numbers, blacks commit 5 times the number of crimes on white victims than white perpetrators on black victims. However, in terms of population, there are 198 million whites (2013 Census Estimate) and 42 million black people in the US. In other words, blacks are about 1/5th of the population of whites. When you adjust for population, whites are a victim of a black criminal 25 times more often than blacks are victims of white criminals. .For aggravated assault the numbers are even more stark. Aggravated Assaults in 2012—760,739White on black aggravated assault in 2012—17,878Black on white aggravated assault in 2012—697,217Accounting for population differences, a white person is the victim of an aggravated assault committed by a black person 200 times more often than a black person is likely to be of a white person. .Forcible rapes 2012—84,376Black rapist/white victim in 2012—36,966White rapist/black victim in 2012—0.Of over 940,000 interracial violent crimes per year, black people commit 85% and yet they are only 20% of the population...(From the FBI Unified Crime Report and the Census Bureau’s National Crime Victimization Survey) Aggravated Assaults in 2012—760,739 White on black aggravated assault in 2012—17,878 (one out of every 11,075 white people commit this crime) Black on white aggravated assault in 2012—697,217 (one out of every 60 black people commit this crime) In raw numbers, blacks commit 39 times the number of aggravated assaults on white victims than white perpetrators on black victims. When you adjust for population, whites are an aggravated assault victim of a black criminal 184 times more often than blacks are victims of white criminals. ..The BJS.GOV report indicates a TOTAL 2010 population of 2,266,832, then reports race populations as number per 100,000 total population indicating that of the total prison/jail population: approx. 64% is non-latino/hispanic black and approx. 10% is non-latino/hispanic white and .0.64 times 2,266,832 = 1,450,770 black of 45 million total black population that means: 1 out of every 31 black people in this country are in prison/jail .0.10 times 2,266,832 = 226,684 white of 198 million total white population that means: 1 out of every 873 white people in this country are in prison/jail
This something conservatives seem to have forgotten you do have to work to get welfare or eventual you get kicked off.Welfare-to-work law encourages low wages, raises dependency on federal benefitshttp://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/nov/3/welfare-to-work-law-encourages-low-wages-increases/?page=allThe 1996 welfare solution was a Republican idea. It had some merit but also unintended consequences.“The historic welfare reform law of 1996 was widely praised for encouraging Americans to go back to work and not stay on the dole. But after nearly two decades of experience with the law, analysts are finding it created unintended side effects such as a perverse incentive for some employers to pay skimpy wages.”Corporate/Employer welfare.“The increase in low-wage employment accelerated during the Great Recession of 2007 to 2009 when millions of higher-paying jobs in construction, manufacturing and finance were lost. Of the 7.2 million jobs that have opened since the recession, more than half have been in low-wage professions such as retail and restaurants, where workers with dependents often must supplement their wages with federal benefits to make ends meet.”
I know it is terrible when the facts do not match your political or world view than it must be the facts that are wrong and it is damable lies of liberals. No responsibility on our part.
No one will read this far down into the comments but:
If corporations would actually pay a living wage, perhaps more people would not need government assistance to get by. WalMart pays so many of its employees a wage low enough that these hard workers qualify for food stamps & public housing that these services amount to a government subsidy of WalMart’s large profit margins.
If you’re angry that your tax dollars go to food stamps for the working poor, then why aren’t you angry that your tax dollars go into WalMart’s sizeable profits?
Mr PainterArt, I KNOW most of those loopholes were closed, I’ve been a business owner for four decades, I watched the loopholes close; like tax credits (credits not deductions) for business expansion. Again with Romney?? Taxes on capital gains are NOT the same as taxes on earned income. Capital gains are those gains made by investors who grow the economy. Without investments in growing the economy if will fail. So you wish to punish those investors and drive them away from investing in the economy by raising their taxes. Good job in killing an already wounded economy..I still run several very successful businesses, so I am away of exactly how pricing works. The price of ANY product MUST consider the cost of producing that product. Yes I will charge as much as I can (key-word CAN) but it MUST be more than it costs me to produce that product, INCLUDING taxes. If I can’t cover the overhead, INCLUDING TAXES, I’m out of business. Taxes are the same on my competitors, they too have to add the cost of taxes to their overhead, there is NO competition there. In the end YOU the consumer pay MY corporate taxes for me, or I’m out of business..I presented my case when I pointed out why the charts are misleading. A chart showing the increase in poverty during a major recession says NOTHING except people lost jobs during a recession, big surprise that..Its easy to create fodder for the ENVY crowd, all you need to say is someone has more than you and they’re off. But they don;t want to hear about the months spent living in a burned out station wagon in order to get a degree, nor do they want to hear about the years spent living hand to mouth trying to grow my business, or using the small savings we had for a daughter’s college fund to cover payroll, or the 16 hours a day 7 days a week for months to keep the business afloat during the lean times. They just want to whine that I have more than they do.
Mr zzazzenn, exactly WHAT is a ‘living wage’ and why should I pay it for something that isn’t worth that much money??.The whine about a ‘living wage’ is directed at ENTRY LEVEL jobs or jobs meant to fund a high school kid’s dating habits. NO ONE should be in EITHER of those positions longer than a few months. If they are they have issues MUCH larger than their wage. .Every year I hire about a dozen high school graduates in May, I pay them a minimum wage here in Texas, $7.25 an hour and they ‘work’ 40 hours a week. Being ‘full time’ they qualify for all benefits, insurance, vacation, etc. costing me about another $1.25 an hour. During that 40 hours they provide NO BENEFIT to me at all, I am spending even MORE money on instructors to train them in the business. This lasts about 3 months, during that time some of them rise to the occasion and display the work ethic I require in employees and they begin to cover a portion of their cost, the rest will be thanked for their time and sent on their way. Those who remain will see quarterly raises over the following 2 or 3 years such that they will be making over $20 an hour by the time they are 21 years old.. I can afford to train these inexperienced, unskilled and mostly uneducated people because they are cheap at first; I invest about $75,000 in 3 months of training for a dozen people, and get maybe two maybe three good employees (maybe only one or none) out of the effort who will be making top 10% money before they are 40. The odds of getting a couple of solid employees makes the investment of $75k worth the risk..Now enter your ill-conceived ‘living wage’ idea. Instead of a dozen, I can now only hire FIVE. Right off that’s SEVEN people who miss out on three months of employment, not to mention the opportunity and training provided by the encounter. Hiring only five means my chances of creating a good employee are now VERY slim, now the investment of $75k is NOT worth the risk because there is a MUCH greater chance of coming up empty. So I pocket my $75k and NO ONE gets a shot at a career … Thanks to YOUR ‘living wage’ lunacy, a dozen kids remain unemployed over a summer and one or two never get the opportunity to make real money. I’m sure they will extend their gratitude to you for the missed opportunity.
obliterate the welfare state. federal government is way too huge to truly see who needs what, and how to direct ppl to good jobs, so they don’t need handouts.encourage local communities, nonprofits and churches, tend to individual needs, what used to be “charity” that people contribute to, and give big tax breaks.
HabaneroBuck almost 9 years ago
To be honest, the welfare state is ever-increasingly putting the shackles on the productive class of society, not the segment of society that depends on it.
BeniHanna6 Premium Member almost 9 years ago
Sorry, you are dead wrong. If you want to study hard, in a field in demand, and work hard, any able bodied person can get a high paying job earning 100K or better. It took me 2 years of college, 6 years in the Navy and then 2 years on the job. No one helped me get the job, just my qualifications.
locoboilerguy almost 9 years ago
Its a nice try Michael but what we lack in this country more than anything else is personal responsibility for ones self. On this the 70th anniversary of the end of the war in Europe our leaders and a big percentage of our population is looking for someone to blame for their problems just as Germany found scapegoats. That did not work out well for Europe 70 years ago. I wonder where our road of placing blame will lead us?
Fuzzy Thinker Premium Member almost 9 years ago
How many Liberals are living in gated WHITE (less than 5% Black) communities? Do they go to work where there is armed security?Now, if those rich Democrats (15 million) would let one poor Black live in their spare bedroom and borrow one of their spare cars, Welfare Reform would change overnight. Imagine not paying taxes and instead being personally responsibile for accomplishing: Feeding, Health Care, Education and Employment of an individual that says ‘I want freedom’. Just think how happy you would be to see them get their own lodging and be independent.
kline0800 almost 9 years ago
Ramirez could have correctly made those shackled feet any color. The Welfare State (Humanism’s effort to replace God who Created mankind and provided every need in the created earth) kills the godly instinct and command to “work to provide for yourself and your family.”-I remember in the Cold War Era, learning that in the USSR the communists took control of everything, including the production of food and used food to teach children to thank the State, not God, for their daily bread. That is Satan’s war against the Creator that he started in Heaven and brought to earth beginning in Eden to trick Adam and Eve into choosing SIN to pollute all their dna/gene bearing children with the evil sin nature, that cursed God’s perfect earth, including the animals and nature. Worship of the State is extremely ruinous to humanity.
PainterArt Premium Member almost 9 years ago
Current numbers on welfare:
Total number of Americans on welfare 11,400,000,Total number of Americans on food stamps 41,700,000,Total number of Americans on unemployment insurance 10,200,000,Percent of the US population on welfare 4.1%
http://www.statisticbrain.com/welfare-statistics/
The above numbers include unemployment insurance which companies pay for. Subsidies for Agriculture especially big Ag. Government buys surplus and props up agriculture mainly in middle America. Government then use this in welfare and school breakfast, lunch, programs. Congressmen from farm states are one of the reason welfare is not going to disappear. Yet there conservative voters can not make the connection."In 2010, there were 10.5 million individuals classified as “working poor” (persons who spent at least 27 weeks in the labor force—that is, working or looking for work—but whose incomes still fell below the official poverty level); the number of working poor was little changed from 2009." http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2012/ted_20120405.htm The working poor on welfare subsides low wages of companies and corporations. Essentially, welfare for people is actually welfare for companies and we are supplementing company wages to their poor employees. 35 Statistics About The Working Poor In America That Will Blow Your Mindhttp://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/35-statistics-about-the-working-poor-in-america-that-will-blow-your-mind#9 Today, the United States actually has a higher percentage of workers doing low wage work than any other major industrialized nation does.
Median household income in the United States has fallen for four consecutive years.Median household income for families with children dropped by a whopping $6,300 between 2001 and 2011.The U.S. economy continues to trade good paying jobs for low paying jobs. 60 percent of the jobs lost during the last recession were mid-wage jobs, but 58 percent of the jobs created since then have been low wage jobs.PainterArt Premium Member almost 9 years ago
Must have blown the circuits of the forum towards the end. So what is the alternative solution if anyone has got it?One thing is companies could reduce the income gap between their executives and their lowest paid employees. There are way to many executives that are not worth the amount they are paid. I have no problem paying people what they are worth, but believe me most of them are not worth what they are paid. If companies paid their lowest workers living wages, we could shrink welfare by a lot.
PainterArt Premium Member almost 9 years ago
Teach them how to fish and then we do not have to hand them a fish. What is the private sector waiting for they can shrink the government?
38lowell almost 9 years ago
This should be on the front page of every newspaper & magazine.
PainterArt Premium Member almost 9 years ago
You are only making my point? We have had tax cuts since Reagan where are the jobs? You want the government to give people jobs or are you for private sector solutions and companies giving people jobs?Lots of people out of work because big banks collapsed the economy under lax regulations because conservative thinking is that companies can police themselves so we need the government to get lout of the way. Nothing but failure which we are still recovering from.Your telling me you think the government is responsible for chain stores closing and people out of work because to much regulation and taxes. No logic.
Wraithkin almost 9 years ago
Ugh… the Pay Gap argument again. Painter, it appears you weren’t around for when I did my analysis on wages, so I’ll post it again.Walmart’s CEO was paid a total compensation package of 25.6m in 2014. This accounts for all the stock, bonds, pay, blah blah blah. Walmart has 1.3 million employees. Let’s say just half of them are full-time employees. That’s still 650,000 employees. That means 40 hours a week. Extrapolating that out, it means it represents 1,352,000,000 man-hours of just full-time employees. I’m not counting even the part-timers in this number. Now, if we take ALL of the CEO’s wages and divide them up evenly (so the CEO makes NOTHING for the year), that translates into an 18-cent-per-hour pay increase. 18 cents. That 18 cents is not going to make any semblance of a meaningful difference to anyone who works there. Accounting for part-time employees, you’re looking at probably closer to the 10-12 cent per hour difference.So, you see… it’s not the “evil CEO’s” that are causing the hardship for the workers at the bottom. You could take the whole board and pay them nothing and pay only the associates, and you’re probably looking at MAYBE $1 per hour difference per employee. CEO’s and other executives are responsible for guiding the business to success. Without them there are no jobs to be had, good bad or otherwise. Not only that, but who are you, or any of us really, to dictate what these people make? If the business wants to keep the corporate leadership that is going to guide the business to be profitable, they pay the people enough to stay.Lastly, the jobs that pay minimum wage are not designed to be “living wage” jobs. Why should they pay a living wage to someone who has no life skills, no work experience, questionable work ethic, and no proven track record? Because when I was growing up, minimum wage jobs were for TEENS. They were not designed for working adults. Instead of criticizing the company’s for not paying a higher wage for these jobs, you should instead criticize the working adults for not adjusting to the times. Once again, we get to feeding the bears. If you pay someone to take a fast-food order or process someone at a checkout $15-20 an hour (because that’s the “living wage” everyone wants to tout), what’s their incentive to go get an education/learn a trade skill/get work experience and get a better job? If you take away the incentive for people to try to get a BETTER job, they won’t go after it. It’s basic human psychology. If you are given a carrot for not working hard, why would you pursue another carrot that requires you to work hard? And yes, I’ve worked fast food when I was a teen. It wasn’t hard.And here’s the last piece that you guys never consider when arguing that minimum wage should be a living wage. What happens to those who fought tooth and nail to get to where they are, now earning a living wage? There are arguably MORE people in the middle class than there are at the poverty level. What about them? Basic Economics happens. Companies pay higher wages, they raise their prices. The middle class purchasing power slides down to the “living wage” levels, and they end up at the bottom rung right alongside the minimum wage workers. So because of selfishness and unwillingness to learn a new skill or pursue an education and work your way up to the middle class, you instead drag the middle class down to the bottom group. That will show the rich! Psh. Just like everything else surrounding social engineering and social justice, we are ruining the middle class because the bottom end won’t work to get to the middle, and the top end doesn’t care because they can afford to not care. So the liberal solution is to raise the water level so the poor can climb higher on the ladder. Too bad it drowns those already further up on the ladder. Great plan, guys!
Dtroutma almost 9 years ago
It always amazes me that today’s Republicans always point to Lincoln in 1865 as opposed to slavery, and for equality, then they ignore 1965, when the southerners flipped parties, and the Democrats became the anti-slaver-pro-civil rights, so those Dixiecrats became Republicans to fight for discrimination.
Across the nation, if you REALLY want to look for the welfare state, you’d better look post-Reagan especially to Wall Street and corporate boardrooms, and the MIC. It’s also interesting that those states getting most back from the feds, in excess of what they pay in, are mostly very red, which explains the same red ink they camplain about, while generating it.
Bar Pluc almost 9 years ago
Mr Wiseorator, Mr. Olongapojoe EARNED what he got from the NAVY by BEING in the NAVY, it was NOT given to him by ANYONE. As for the teachers, his parents paid for those teachers, and he continues to pay for those teachers so that was NOT given to him either..As for me, I was not in the military, but I built the businesses I own myself, no one gave them to me and no one helped me to build them who did not expect me to pay dearly for their services. I will say that again; I built these business with NO help from ANYONE who did not expect to get paid dearly for their services. “Well what about the infrastructure your business uses? Taxpayers provided that”; yes I did. My taxes on BOTH my income and my businesses income paid for that infrastructure at a MUCH higher rate than any other citizen. The taxes on the payroll I provide to several hundred employees pays for that infrastructure, those taxes by the require me to pay much higher wages in order to provide a working income to those same employees..You can refuse to hear when someone says that working hard can get you ahead, but working hard for myself got me 1% income. The problem is too many are too afraid to work hard for themselves, they prefer to work hard for someone else, and then, like you, wish to complain that they aren’t getting ahead. You want the security that comes with working for someone else without all the risks to personal wealth and income, without all the demands on time and effort. That’s fine, but don’t complain when others take those risks and make those investments in time and labor and become successful..As for people working low-end, entry level jobs, if you don’t like a crappy income don’t take the crappy job. I’m NOT going to pay a high school grad with a 2.0 GPA more than minimum wage to sweep out the warehouse. If you want a $15 income, you need to provide me with over $20 worth of services just for me to break even. $8.00 an hour to sweep a floor is not slave wages, its ALL that job is worth, at the same time, if you show me better than a 2.0 GPA work ethic I’ll give you a chance to improve your position AND your income by training you to be something other than a broom engine. Additionally that entry level job/income gets you get something you can get NO WHERE else; work experience.
Bar Pluc almost 9 years ago
Mr Painter, focusing on the top RATE is misleading as it ignores the thousands of loopholes offered previously that were closed when the top rate was lowered. so that graph is a waste of bandwidth..The effective corporate tax is also misleading. it is IMPOSSIBLE to tax corporations. Taxes are an overhead expense that MUST be added to the price point of services. The consumers of the products provided by corporations MUST pay those taxes when they purchase the products. Raising taxes on corporations means you MUST pay higher prices for their products..The average CEO pay chart is also misleading as it fails to account for the changes in businesses that have occurred in the last 50 years. CEO’s in the 50’s managed on average less than 500 people, CEO’s today are responsible for thousands of people. Look at Wal-Mart, the company people love to hate; the CEO makes $25 million dollars, but he manages 2.3 million employees; he makes less than $11.00 a year per employee. As a CEO I make 40 times as much per employee..As for the 2007-2010 poverty chart is should NOT surprise anyone that when the economy tanks the ranks of poverty increase. However, what we ‘call’ poverty in the us is called top 10% income in most of the rest of the world. Only in the US would ‘poverty’ include air-conditioned homes, cable TV, and smart cell phones. Poverty in the US is a leading cause of obesity in the US, in the rest of the world it means starvation..Basically everything you’ve posted is misleading and only serves to fuel discontent with others instead of fueling a desire to succeed. It is the fodder of the new ‘envy’ politics.
Bar Pluc almost 9 years ago
The ‘middle class’, depending on whose definition you use for ‘middle class’, is shrinking because work-force participation is shrinking. It ballooned in the 60’s to the early 70’s and began to shrink in the early 2000’ and is now at nearly the same level as the 60’s. The rate of retirement nearly trebled during that same 15 years. .Just more ‘envy’ politics.
Bar Pluc almost 9 years ago
@OldCoal"" you do not KNOW that less than 40% of welfare recipients are black?"".Mr OldCoal, yes we people of color makeup about 40% of the welfare rolls … however we are ONLY 13% of the population so we are represented on the welfare rolls at over THREE TIMES the rate of other races combined..some other interesting numbers about my race:.2012 Numbers(From the FBI Unified Crime Report and the Census Bureau’s National Crime Victimization Survey 2012) White on black robbery 2012—54,360Black on white robbery 2012—278,000In raw numbers, blacks commit 5 times the number of crimes on white victims than white perpetrators on black victims. However, in terms of population, there are 198 million whites (2013 Census Estimate) and 42 million black people in the US. In other words, blacks are about 1/5th of the population of whites. When you adjust for population, whites are a victim of a black criminal 25 times more often than blacks are victims of white criminals. .For aggravated assault the numbers are even more stark. Aggravated Assaults in 2012—760,739White on black aggravated assault in 2012—17,878Black on white aggravated assault in 2012—697,217Accounting for population differences, a white person is the victim of an aggravated assault committed by a black person 200 times more often than a black person is likely to be of a white person. .Forcible rapes 2012—84,376Black rapist/white victim in 2012—36,966White rapist/black victim in 2012—0.Of over 940,000 interracial violent crimes per year, black people commit 85% and yet they are only 20% of the population...(From the FBI Unified Crime Report and the Census Bureau’s National Crime Victimization Survey) Aggravated Assaults in 2012—760,739 White on black aggravated assault in 2012—17,878 (one out of every 11,075 white people commit this crime) Black on white aggravated assault in 2012—697,217 (one out of every 60 black people commit this crime) In raw numbers, blacks commit 39 times the number of aggravated assaults on white victims than white perpetrators on black victims. When you adjust for population, whites are an aggravated assault victim of a black criminal 184 times more often than blacks are victims of white criminals. ..The BJS.GOV report indicates a TOTAL 2010 population of 2,266,832, then reports race populations as number per 100,000 total population indicating that of the total prison/jail population: approx. 64% is non-latino/hispanic black and approx. 10% is non-latino/hispanic white and .0.64 times 2,266,832 = 1,450,770 black of 45 million total black population that means: 1 out of every 31 black people in this country are in prison/jail .0.10 times 2,266,832 = 226,684 white of 198 million total white population that means: 1 out of every 873 white people in this country are in prison/jail
PainterArt Premium Member almost 9 years ago
This something conservatives seem to have forgotten you do have to work to get welfare or eventual you get kicked off.Welfare-to-work law encourages low wages, raises dependency on federal benefitshttp://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/nov/3/welfare-to-work-law-encourages-low-wages-increases/?page=allThe 1996 welfare solution was a Republican idea. It had some merit but also unintended consequences.“The historic welfare reform law of 1996 was widely praised for encouraging Americans to go back to work and not stay on the dole. But after nearly two decades of experience with the law, analysts are finding it created unintended side effects such as a perverse incentive for some employers to pay skimpy wages.”Corporate/Employer welfare.“The increase in low-wage employment accelerated during the Great Recession of 2007 to 2009 when millions of higher-paying jobs in construction, manufacturing and finance were lost. Of the 7.2 million jobs that have opened since the recession, more than half have been in low-wage professions such as retail and restaurants, where workers with dependents often must supplement their wages with federal benefits to make ends meet.”
PainterArt Premium Member almost 9 years ago
I know it is terrible when the facts do not match your political or world view than it must be the facts that are wrong and it is damable lies of liberals. No responsibility on our part.
jqmcd almost 9 years ago
No one will read this far down into the comments but:
If corporations would actually pay a living wage, perhaps more people would not need government assistance to get by. WalMart pays so many of its employees a wage low enough that these hard workers qualify for food stamps & public housing that these services amount to a government subsidy of WalMart’s large profit margins.
If you’re angry that your tax dollars go to food stamps for the working poor, then why aren’t you angry that your tax dollars go into WalMart’s sizeable profits?
Bar Pluc almost 9 years ago
Mr PainterArt, I KNOW most of those loopholes were closed, I’ve been a business owner for four decades, I watched the loopholes close; like tax credits (credits not deductions) for business expansion. Again with Romney?? Taxes on capital gains are NOT the same as taxes on earned income. Capital gains are those gains made by investors who grow the economy. Without investments in growing the economy if will fail. So you wish to punish those investors and drive them away from investing in the economy by raising their taxes. Good job in killing an already wounded economy..I still run several very successful businesses, so I am away of exactly how pricing works. The price of ANY product MUST consider the cost of producing that product. Yes I will charge as much as I can (key-word CAN) but it MUST be more than it costs me to produce that product, INCLUDING taxes. If I can’t cover the overhead, INCLUDING TAXES, I’m out of business. Taxes are the same on my competitors, they too have to add the cost of taxes to their overhead, there is NO competition there. In the end YOU the consumer pay MY corporate taxes for me, or I’m out of business..I presented my case when I pointed out why the charts are misleading. A chart showing the increase in poverty during a major recession says NOTHING except people lost jobs during a recession, big surprise that..Its easy to create fodder for the ENVY crowd, all you need to say is someone has more than you and they’re off. But they don;t want to hear about the months spent living in a burned out station wagon in order to get a degree, nor do they want to hear about the years spent living hand to mouth trying to grow my business, or using the small savings we had for a daughter’s college fund to cover payroll, or the 16 hours a day 7 days a week for months to keep the business afloat during the lean times. They just want to whine that I have more than they do.
Bar Pluc almost 9 years ago
Mr zzazzenn, exactly WHAT is a ‘living wage’ and why should I pay it for something that isn’t worth that much money??.The whine about a ‘living wage’ is directed at ENTRY LEVEL jobs or jobs meant to fund a high school kid’s dating habits. NO ONE should be in EITHER of those positions longer than a few months. If they are they have issues MUCH larger than their wage. .Every year I hire about a dozen high school graduates in May, I pay them a minimum wage here in Texas, $7.25 an hour and they ‘work’ 40 hours a week. Being ‘full time’ they qualify for all benefits, insurance, vacation, etc. costing me about another $1.25 an hour. During that 40 hours they provide NO BENEFIT to me at all, I am spending even MORE money on instructors to train them in the business. This lasts about 3 months, during that time some of them rise to the occasion and display the work ethic I require in employees and they begin to cover a portion of their cost, the rest will be thanked for their time and sent on their way. Those who remain will see quarterly raises over the following 2 or 3 years such that they will be making over $20 an hour by the time they are 21 years old.. I can afford to train these inexperienced, unskilled and mostly uneducated people because they are cheap at first; I invest about $75,000 in 3 months of training for a dozen people, and get maybe two maybe three good employees (maybe only one or none) out of the effort who will be making top 10% money before they are 40. The odds of getting a couple of solid employees makes the investment of $75k worth the risk..Now enter your ill-conceived ‘living wage’ idea. Instead of a dozen, I can now only hire FIVE. Right off that’s SEVEN people who miss out on three months of employment, not to mention the opportunity and training provided by the encounter. Hiring only five means my chances of creating a good employee are now VERY slim, now the investment of $75k is NOT worth the risk because there is a MUCH greater chance of coming up empty. So I pocket my $75k and NO ONE gets a shot at a career … Thanks to YOUR ‘living wage’ lunacy, a dozen kids remain unemployed over a summer and one or two never get the opportunity to make real money. I’m sure they will extend their gratitude to you for the missed opportunity.
Linda Butts Premium Member almost 9 years ago
obliterate the welfare state. federal government is way too huge to truly see who needs what, and how to direct ppl to good jobs, so they don’t need handouts.encourage local communities, nonprofits and churches, tend to individual needs, what used to be “charity” that people contribute to, and give big tax breaks.