The Cinco de Mayo is not a holiday in Mexico except in the State of Puebla. It is business as usual in Mexico City. More Americans celebrate the Cinco de Mayo than Mexicans. But then again, what is an American? We are many nationalities. That is why the recent Arizona legislation though an understandable response to Federal and Congressional ineptitude is quite un-American. The vast majority of illegal immigrants are economic migrants, just wanting to better themselves and their families as there are little opportunities at home. I know my ancestors were economic migrants fleeing famine and repression in Ireland. Is it not any different? Weren’t the Irish vilified, the Italians, Germans, Slovaks, Poles, the Eastern European Jews? We are all Americans now.
Our strength is in our diversity. When I speak to Europeans about ancestry, I can say I am Italian, German, Norwegian, Swedish, Croatian, English, Irish…in other words, American!
I am happy that Arizona did the right thing. For many reasons, the illegals must go. And unless the police ask for documenation, there’s no way to identify them.
Those who say the Arizona Law is unfair, are only saying it because they want the illegals to remain.
If the Mexicans came past the Statue of Liberty, they would have arrived legally and there would be no question of whether or not they belong here. Jumping a fence is not considered legal entry. Try doing that going INTO Mexico. They are not so generous and don’t care what anyone else says…
“Those who say the Arizona Law is unfair, are only saying it because they want the illegals to remain.”
Or we’re not white (if you’re going to make absurd claims, I’m going to follow it up with one). If “being concerned for legal citizens who will be profiled by the Arizona law makes us ‘supportive of illegals’” then not being concerned about profiling of minorities must mean you’re white. See the absurdity there?
^ ”“I like to think that there’s more people that are going to use it the right way,” he said. “
Notice how he doesn’t say “there’s no chance that legal citizens stand no chance of having their rights violated because of their ethnic background.” He just “likes to think that more people will do the right thing.” We can all “hope” a law is used the “right way.” What additionally makes this law dangerous is the ability for police to be sued if other citizens do not think they executed the law based on their own “reasonable suspicion.” What is that suspicion? No one will provide absolute criteria. The vagueness is what is dangerous here.
Consider the law Joe Liebermann is proposing, where you could be denied your rights if it is even suspected that you are affiliated with a terrorist group. That law could be used the “right way,” but such vagueness could allow for it to be used the “wrong way.”
So you think this is something outside of what has been going on for decades: what about the Patriot Act? How does it make sense to allow anyone accross our border without any idea of who they are and what their intentions are? We had a very good system in place before the Reagan administration did away with it. Now we are dealing with a mess that has no solution in sight……..
@cfimeiatpap - I say if you want to have a law like this, search everyone. Have a bunch of checkpoints all over the place. Eventually you’ll get them all and everyone’s rights will have been violated, not just a minority out of ‘convenience.’
Have you read the bill? The way I read this bill follows your point. Have you lived here in AZ? I have been stopped (I’m a white guy) as has my wife (she’s a black woman) as has our sons (who are as diverse as we are). If you have not experienced life where people slam into you while you are sitting at a red light and watched them just run away you do not understand. We are all paying for this………………
If you have not experienced life where people slam into you while you are sitting at a red light and watched them just run away you do not understand. We are all paying for this………………
That doesn’t just happen with illegal immigrants. One time I was driving down a road and right in front of me this car getting onto the same road as I’m on and the SUV in front me slams into it. The car spins off the road and into someone’s yard, and the driver of the car, a black man, crawls out the passenger side window and runs off, leaving the driver of the SUV, another black man, standing there with his cell phone bewildered. Maybe the black guy running off was here illegally? (this was a Virginia incident, by the way, though not too many people would swim up here… we have a LOT of military compounds up here)
“The way I read this bill follows your point.”
I have many times asked for the definition of “lawful contact” and “reasonable suspicion” and asked why, if the current laws already provide for this, why private citizens can sue the police if they think, in their opinion, their own “reasonable suspicion” that the law is not being executed. The issue here, in my opinion, isn’t the illegals. In my opinion: send them home and let them come in legally. My concern is, for example, if there was a problem with a bunch of escaped black female convicts or something, should I have to carry my documentation and get stopped by a police officer for “driving while black” because I fit the profile? If we were looking for a bunch of Timothy McVeighs I doubt white males would want to be profiled either. It’s empathy.
If I understand the intent of this bill it is to enforce the laws that already exist (both state and federal). As I’m sure you are well aware black folk have always been profiled; even after the laws were put in place to stop it. Redress of the people is part of the rule of law. If we are abiding by the law we can stand in front of our accusers and a jury of our peers. If we are standing outside the law then we have two options; either protest an unfair law or hide from it. Again we have rights if we play by the rules. The problem is how do we determine who is lawful, who is protesting and who is hiding. I once knew a woman from Peru; she was a hard working woman who had been here illegally for over 15 years. She was able to get her mother here and succeeded in getting her on Medicare and SSI. The hospital where my wife worked for years had to close due to the amount of unpaid procedures for people who took advantage of their generosity. There were a very high percentage of people who were here without documentation who refused to pay their debt. Just as the woman from Peru falsified her presence here there are hundreds of thousands here just like her. Even under HB1070 I doubt this woman would ever been asked for anything more than her fake drivers license.
The law, as I have read it, removes those rights. We as citizens have a right to protection against unnecessary search and seizure without “probable cause” and requiring of a warrant. The Arizona law downgrades that to “reasonable suspicion.” So it is possible that a citizen who appears to be Hispanic traveling without their citizenship paperwork could (heck, I don’t even know where mine is most of the time, I think my mom has it) be arrested on suspicion of being here illegally which removes their right because they were arrested on someone’s suspicion. I have yet to see someone here say it is absolutely not possible that this could happen. It’s that possibility that concerns me. It is not out of some kind of bleeding heart concern for illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants are illegal. They’re human and should be treated in a humane fashion, but they’re still here illegally. The concern is for rights of a citizen and as someone whose rights are subject to scrutiny as well, I am concerned.
Nobody would be foolish enough to say “it is absolutely not possible that this could happen” I mean let’s face it; one of our black councilmen was profiled and subjected to the very things you suggest here before this bill was signed. My wife is constantly being pulled over because of her race and I am constantly being pulled over because I’m a long hair with a black woman. This law does go to the discretion of the law officer and how do we discern who to trust? It will be interesting how the courts rule; I still find it interesting that the Patriot Act trumps all of this, maybe that is the purpose; take the eyes off the real threat to our rights……………
Peace………..
Just Arizona and the fear of cannabis and things not understood by those elected to protect us from ourselves………….One of the issues this HB1070 is based on is the importation of illicit narcotics; we all know that long hairs and blacks are druggies…………don’t we??????????????? Profiling is nothing new; just ask the NSA…….
In reference to the Tostitos ad it only touches briefly on the beauty, grace and style of salsa dancing. If they weren’t trying to sell us something it would be very nice. The shoes are hot though:-)…………….
comYics almost 14 years ago
Pride cometh before a fall.
4uk4ata almost 14 years ago
30-ish percent of Latino and Hispanic descent, many of whom formerly Mexican, should make a pretty good connection.
Do you protest St. Patrick’s day too ;) ?
cdward almost 14 years ago
^comYics, I agree. That’s why I’ve always hated those “Proud to be an American” bumper stickers.
Sullykerry almost 14 years ago
The Cinco de Mayo is not a holiday in Mexico except in the State of Puebla. It is business as usual in Mexico City. More Americans celebrate the Cinco de Mayo than Mexicans. But then again, what is an American? We are many nationalities. That is why the recent Arizona legislation though an understandable response to Federal and Congressional ineptitude is quite un-American. The vast majority of illegal immigrants are economic migrants, just wanting to better themselves and their families as there are little opportunities at home. I know my ancestors were economic migrants fleeing famine and repression in Ireland. Is it not any different? Weren’t the Irish vilified, the Italians, Germans, Slovaks, Poles, the Eastern European Jews? We are all Americans now.
Motivemagus almost 14 years ago
Our strength is in our diversity. When I speak to Europeans about ancestry, I can say I am Italian, German, Norwegian, Swedish, Croatian, English, Irish…in other words, American!
hankv almost 14 years ago
I like the saying… “come legal or don’t come at all “. wish folks would quit protesting FOR those who break the law.
Will80 almost 14 years ago
I am happy that Arizona did the right thing. For many reasons, the illegals must go. And unless the police ask for documenation, there’s no way to identify them.
Those who say the Arizona Law is unfair, are only saying it because they want the illegals to remain.
biemmezeta almost 14 years ago
and legal
MurphyHerself almost 14 years ago
“non-holiday holiday”????
chimera almost 14 years ago
If the Mexicans came past the Statue of Liberty, they would have arrived legally and there would be no question of whether or not they belong here. Jumping a fence is not considered legal entry. Try doing that going INTO Mexico. They are not so generous and don’t care what anyone else says…
Jaedabee Premium Member almost 14 years ago
“Those who say the Arizona Law is unfair, are only saying it because they want the illegals to remain.”
Or we’re not white (if you’re going to make absurd claims, I’m going to follow it up with one). If “being concerned for legal citizens who will be profiled by the Arizona law makes us ‘supportive of illegals’” then not being concerned about profiling of minorities must mean you’re white. See the absurdity there?Magnaut almost 14 years ago
illegal is as illegals do
cfimeiatpap almost 14 years ago
http://www.abc15.com/content/news/phoenixmetro/central/story/Undocumented-immigrant-says-SB-1070-needed-to/s4K3Brxueku58lD2M5_xNg.cspx
Jaedabee Premium Member almost 14 years ago
^ ”“I like to think that there’s more people that are going to use it the right way,” he said. “
Notice how he doesn’t say “there’s no chance that legal citizens stand no chance of having their rights violated because of their ethnic background.” He just “likes to think that more people will do the right thing.” We can all “hope” a law is used the “right way.” What additionally makes this law dangerous is the ability for police to be sued if other citizens do not think they executed the law based on their own “reasonable suspicion.” What is that suspicion? No one will provide absolute criteria. The vagueness is what is dangerous here. Consider the law Joe Liebermann is proposing, where you could be denied your rights if it is even suspected that you are affiliated with a terrorist group. That law could be used the “right way,” but such vagueness could allow for it to be used the “wrong way.”cfimeiatpap almost 14 years ago
So you think this is something outside of what has been going on for decades: what about the Patriot Act? How does it make sense to allow anyone accross our border without any idea of who they are and what their intentions are? We had a very good system in place before the Reagan administration did away with it. Now we are dealing with a mess that has no solution in sight……..
Jaedabee Premium Member almost 14 years ago
@cfimeiatpap - I say if you want to have a law like this, search everyone. Have a bunch of checkpoints all over the place. Eventually you’ll get them all and everyone’s rights will have been violated, not just a minority out of ‘convenience.’
cfimeiatpap almost 14 years ago
Have you read the bill? The way I read this bill follows your point. Have you lived here in AZ? I have been stopped (I’m a white guy) as has my wife (she’s a black woman) as has our sons (who are as diverse as we are). If you have not experienced life where people slam into you while you are sitting at a red light and watched them just run away you do not understand. We are all paying for this………………
Jaedabee Premium Member almost 14 years ago
If you have not experienced life where people slam into you while you are sitting at a red light and watched them just run away you do not understand. We are all paying for this………………
That doesn’t just happen with illegal immigrants. One time I was driving down a road and right in front of me this car getting onto the same road as I’m on and the SUV in front me slams into it. The car spins off the road and into someone’s yard, and the driver of the car, a black man, crawls out the passenger side window and runs off, leaving the driver of the SUV, another black man, standing there with his cell phone bewildered. Maybe the black guy running off was here illegally? (this was a Virginia incident, by the way, though not too many people would swim up here… we have a LOT of military compounds up here)“The way I read this bill follows your point.”
I have many times asked for the definition of “lawful contact” and “reasonable suspicion” and asked why, if the current laws already provide for this, why private citizens can sue the police if they think, in their opinion, their own “reasonable suspicion” that the law is not being executed. The issue here, in my opinion, isn’t the illegals. In my opinion: send them home and let them come in legally. My concern is, for example, if there was a problem with a bunch of escaped black female convicts or something, should I have to carry my documentation and get stopped by a police officer for “driving while black” because I fit the profile? If we were looking for a bunch of Timothy McVeighs I doubt white males would want to be profiled either. It’s empathy.cfimeiatpap almost 14 years ago
If I understand the intent of this bill it is to enforce the laws that already exist (both state and federal). As I’m sure you are well aware black folk have always been profiled; even after the laws were put in place to stop it. Redress of the people is part of the rule of law. If we are abiding by the law we can stand in front of our accusers and a jury of our peers. If we are standing outside the law then we have two options; either protest an unfair law or hide from it. Again we have rights if we play by the rules. The problem is how do we determine who is lawful, who is protesting and who is hiding. I once knew a woman from Peru; she was a hard working woman who had been here illegally for over 15 years. She was able to get her mother here and succeeded in getting her on Medicare and SSI. The hospital where my wife worked for years had to close due to the amount of unpaid procedures for people who took advantage of their generosity. There were a very high percentage of people who were here without documentation who refused to pay their debt. Just as the woman from Peru falsified her presence here there are hundreds of thousands here just like her. Even under HB1070 I doubt this woman would ever been asked for anything more than her fake drivers license.
Jaedabee Premium Member almost 14 years ago
“Again we have rights if we play by the rules”
The law, as I have read it, removes those rights. We as citizens have a right to protection against unnecessary search and seizure without “probable cause” and requiring of a warrant. The Arizona law downgrades that to “reasonable suspicion.” So it is possible that a citizen who appears to be Hispanic traveling without their citizenship paperwork could (heck, I don’t even know where mine is most of the time, I think my mom has it) be arrested on suspicion of being here illegally which removes their right because they were arrested on someone’s suspicion. I have yet to see someone here say it is absolutely not possible that this could happen. It’s that possibility that concerns me. It is not out of some kind of bleeding heart concern for illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants are illegal. They’re human and should be treated in a humane fashion, but they’re still here illegally. The concern is for rights of a citizen and as someone whose rights are subject to scrutiny as well, I am concerned.comYics almost 14 years ago
Sweet cdward. It’s like saying, go bang your head into a wall so that you can not bleed.
cfimeiatpap almost 14 years ago
Nobody would be foolish enough to say “it is absolutely not possible that this could happen” I mean let’s face it; one of our black councilmen was profiled and subjected to the very things you suggest here before this bill was signed. My wife is constantly being pulled over because of her race and I am constantly being pulled over because I’m a long hair with a black woman. This law does go to the discretion of the law officer and how do we discern who to trust? It will be interesting how the courts rule; I still find it interesting that the Patriot Act trumps all of this, maybe that is the purpose; take the eyes off the real threat to our rights…………… Peace………..
Jaedabee Premium Member almost 14 years ago
“I am constantly being pulled over because I’m a long hair with a black woman.”
Since I’m an East Coast’er can you explain to me how this one works? Is there some kind of Bonnie & Clyde incident that I’m not familiar with?Jaedabee Premium Member almost 14 years ago
P.S. In something of a mild relation to the comic, if you haven’t seen “And then there was salsa” you should totally watch it.
http://vimeo.com/9194146 - OMG I want her shoes!
cfimeiatpap almost 14 years ago
Just Arizona and the fear of cannabis and things not understood by those elected to protect us from ourselves………….One of the issues this HB1070 is based on is the importation of illicit narcotics; we all know that long hairs and blacks are druggies…………don’t we??????????????? Profiling is nothing new; just ask the NSA……. In reference to the Tostitos ad it only touches briefly on the beauty, grace and style of salsa dancing. If they weren’t trying to sell us something it would be very nice. The shoes are hot though:-)…………….