That benighted part of the world has been the epicenter of human unpleasantness for several millennia. We haven’t even gotten our toe wet yet. And oh my! What’s that giant sucking sound?
Well done Jase99! And for any that want to learn just about all one needs to know about Afghanistan, read the book “Far Pavilions.” Obviously, no one in “power” during the Bush/Cheney years in either politics or the military has ever studied that part of the world historically. But this “novel” tells the well-documented story of Afghanistan in terms that should scare the bejesus out of any nation contemplating military action there.
Imagine how different the whole picture would look if Turkey had not joined the Central Powers in August 1914. WWI might have been shorter without the Middle East being involved, and the war a bit less global. The Ottoman Empire would have survived a while longer, and in some form, perhaps, even to the present day, covering all the land between Iran and Egypt, and not having been invaded or occupied by Europeans, the people of that region would have no grudge against westerners: their enemies would all be closer to home. There would be no Iraqis, no Saudis, no Jordanians, no Syrians, no Palestinians, no Israelis: just Arabs, Jews, and all the other assorted ethnic groups living under Ottoman authority: a mess, certainly, but perhaps not a mess that the rest of the world had to worry about. What ifs are futile, I know. Still, it is important to understand that things are not inevitably the way they are. There are huge economic and social forces at work in the world, certainly, but sometimes single decisions have have huge consequences. Garrett Hardin wrote a book called FILTERS AGAINST FOLLY many years ago that I found fascinating. He has a few axioms. E.g., since most decisions are made with their immediate consequences in mind, but all actions have long-term as well as short-term consequences he offered this: “The unintended consequences of any action will be more permanent than the intended consequences.” Interventions in complex systems are always problematical. (An essentially conservative argument with which I agree.) He was writing as an ecologist, rather than a political scientist, but I think the points he made in that book can be applied in many situations.
Our dependence on petroleum always makes me think of Frank Herbert’s DUNE novels, the spice Melange, and Desert Power. Was bin Laden a fan? Are the ISIS leaders?
I don’t have sources available right now, but what I remember is that the Arabs took the concept of zero from the Indians, but that algebra was their own invention.
Why would Jase99 believe … what? That the muslim empires were civilized toward their treatment of non-muslims? Maybe because it’s TRUE. Taxation is not the same as the wholesale slaughter or expulsion we’ve seen from Western cultures in the past. For example, in 1492, Spain expelled the “Moors”, an understandable act, but they also expelled all the jews. The jews had a few choices; leave, convert, or die.
You nailed this one logicalone The Muslim world has ALWAYS reverted to the sword, always. Just ask the Spanish what happened for almost 1,000 years. Their revelatory text recounts many battles fought by their prophet to advance his visions. That’s the man of peace we are talking about (PBUH). Islamic apologists want to deny the facts. Yes, they had a period where they led the world intellectually. But it was a really long time ago. The Greeks also led the species intellectually for a while (well Athenians, anyway, the Spartans not so much). Then, after the fall of Rome, magical thinking again dominated, sad to say. But today, the Islamists are a problem. To harken back centuries to their “golden age of tolerance” is mostly irrelevant to the modern circumstance. Not all Muslims are a problem of course, but the Muslim culture as a whole has a significant component that is violent, intolerant, and nutty. Plus, the real shame is that so many “moderate” Muslims sympathize with the motives, if not the actions, of their religious compatriots.
Master, don’t forget those of us who are stilleaten up with PTSD, have injuries that “the man”refused to acknowledge because “we weren’t in Cambodia at any time in the 60’s”
Huh. All day and not one Fox “news” viewer or so-called “conservative” rushes in to tell everyone what a great thing the invasion of Iraq was. Not even the word salad guys.
Who knows? Maybe some of them will even acknowledge that it was the worst American blunder in post WWII history, and that The Decider and The Dick were responsible.
“Came across a quote today that seems appropriate…”.And with similar wisdom, problems in the so-called Middle East can be handled. All it takes is cooperation between parties involved. As an old-timer told me long ago, “With patience and a lot of saliva, the elephant was able to make love to the mosquito.”
In 1947, Nazareth was 20% Christian. majority Muslim, no figures found on Jewish, Druze, athiest, etc. The ratio was apparently steady since Saladin proclaimed religious freedom. Today it is under 5% and dropping, while self-proclaimed Christians in the US sound like unregistered lobbyists for the Likud – even to setting their own foreign policy to help Bibi win.
“Just imagine the USA didn’t come in in 1917? They would have had an armistice and a treaty and that may have avoided World War 2.” They had an armistice and a treaty. You mean a treaty that was more favorable to the Germans. Maybe. Or maybe Germany would have flat out won, captured Paris in 1918 and the Kaiser would have dictated terms to the French while the British … ah, who knows?
braindead Premium Member about 9 years ago
The so-called “conservatives”/Fox “news” viewers still believe that the invasion of Iraq was a wonderful thing and had only good results.
Well, maybe not Glenn Beck.
Dtroutma about 9 years ago
’91 to the present, and to think ’Nam was “endless”.
Alexander the Good Enough about 9 years ago
That benighted part of the world has been the epicenter of human unpleasantness for several millennia. We haven’t even gotten our toe wet yet. And oh my! What’s that giant sucking sound?
mhiggins about 9 years ago
Well done Jase99! And for any that want to learn just about all one needs to know about Afghanistan, read the book “Far Pavilions.” Obviously, no one in “power” during the Bush/Cheney years in either politics or the military has ever studied that part of the world historically. But this “novel” tells the well-documented story of Afghanistan in terms that should scare the bejesus out of any nation contemplating military action there.
Doughfoot about 9 years ago
Imagine how different the whole picture would look if Turkey had not joined the Central Powers in August 1914. WWI might have been shorter without the Middle East being involved, and the war a bit less global. The Ottoman Empire would have survived a while longer, and in some form, perhaps, even to the present day, covering all the land between Iran and Egypt, and not having been invaded or occupied by Europeans, the people of that region would have no grudge against westerners: their enemies would all be closer to home. There would be no Iraqis, no Saudis, no Jordanians, no Syrians, no Palestinians, no Israelis: just Arabs, Jews, and all the other assorted ethnic groups living under Ottoman authority: a mess, certainly, but perhaps not a mess that the rest of the world had to worry about. What ifs are futile, I know. Still, it is important to understand that things are not inevitably the way they are. There are huge economic and social forces at work in the world, certainly, but sometimes single decisions have have huge consequences. Garrett Hardin wrote a book called FILTERS AGAINST FOLLY many years ago that I found fascinating. He has a few axioms. E.g., since most decisions are made with their immediate consequences in mind, but all actions have long-term as well as short-term consequences he offered this: “The unintended consequences of any action will be more permanent than the intended consequences.” Interventions in complex systems are always problematical. (An essentially conservative argument with which I agree.) He was writing as an ecologist, rather than a political scientist, but I think the points he made in that book can be applied in many situations.
emptc12 about 9 years ago
Our dependence on petroleum always makes me think of Frank Herbert’s DUNE novels, the spice Melange, and Desert Power. Was bin Laden a fan? Are the ISIS leaders?
Cerabooge about 9 years ago
I don’t have sources available right now, but what I remember is that the Arabs took the concept of zero from the Indians, but that algebra was their own invention.
Why would Jase99 believe … what? That the muslim empires were civilized toward their treatment of non-muslims? Maybe because it’s TRUE. Taxation is not the same as the wholesale slaughter or expulsion we’ve seen from Western cultures in the past. For example, in 1492, Spain expelled the “Moors”, an understandable act, but they also expelled all the jews. The jews had a few choices; leave, convert, or die.
twclix about 9 years ago
You nailed this one logicalone The Muslim world has ALWAYS reverted to the sword, always. Just ask the Spanish what happened for almost 1,000 years. Their revelatory text recounts many battles fought by their prophet to advance his visions. That’s the man of peace we are talking about (PBUH). Islamic apologists want to deny the facts. Yes, they had a period where they led the world intellectually. But it was a really long time ago. The Greeks also led the species intellectually for a while (well Athenians, anyway, the Spartans not so much). Then, after the fall of Rome, magical thinking again dominated, sad to say. But today, the Islamists are a problem. To harken back centuries to their “golden age of tolerance” is mostly irrelevant to the modern circumstance. Not all Muslims are a problem of course, but the Muslim culture as a whole has a significant component that is violent, intolerant, and nutty. Plus, the real shame is that so many “moderate” Muslims sympathize with the motives, if not the actions, of their religious compatriots.
woodwork about 9 years ago
Master, don’t forget those of us who are stilleaten up with PTSD, have injuries that “the man”refused to acknowledge because “we weren’t in Cambodia at any time in the 60’s”
braindead Premium Member about 9 years ago
Huh. All day and not one Fox “news” viewer or so-called “conservative” rushes in to tell everyone what a great thing the invasion of Iraq was. Not even the word salad guys.
Who knows? Maybe some of them will even acknowledge that it was the worst American blunder in post WWII history, and that The Decider and The Dick were responsible.
emptc12 about 9 years ago
“Came across a quote today that seems appropriate…”.And with similar wisdom, problems in the so-called Middle East can be handled. All it takes is cooperation between parties involved. As an old-timer told me long ago, “With patience and a lot of saliva, the elephant was able to make love to the mosquito.”
hippogriff about 9 years ago
In 1947, Nazareth was 20% Christian. majority Muslim, no figures found on Jewish, Druze, athiest, etc. The ratio was apparently steady since Saladin proclaimed religious freedom. Today it is under 5% and dropping, while self-proclaimed Christians in the US sound like unregistered lobbyists for the Likud – even to setting their own foreign policy to help Bibi win.
Doughfoot about 9 years ago
“Just imagine the USA didn’t come in in 1917? They would have had an armistice and a treaty and that may have avoided World War 2.” They had an armistice and a treaty. You mean a treaty that was more favorable to the Germans. Maybe. Or maybe Germany would have flat out won, captured Paris in 1918 and the Kaiser would have dictated terms to the French while the British … ah, who knows?