Despite Gregor Mendel, everybody STILL thinks that genetics goes by averages! Men and women have been going to bed together for millions of years but they don’t produce freaks, they produce either men or women.
Based on the Punnett square, there is a 7 in 8 possibility you will get a 2 leaf clover and a 1 in 8 possibility you will get a 4 leaf clover. You will not get a 3 leaf clover without mutation.
The comic didn’t load for me either. Odd how some people based on their comments seem to have been able to view the comic, while others can’t. I guess we’re not privileged ;)
Doing a bit of snooping it appears that the actual link to the comic image is resulting in a 500 server error. So we get the rest of the page, but no comic image.
Actually, it’s a lot more complicated than that (what were your assumptions, anyway?)
(caution: skip the rest if you are easily bored, etc…)
Lots of traits don’t follow the binary (off/on) model that Mendel studied. Instead, they are determined by multiple genes in complicated ways - an example is skin color in humans, where there is a tendency for the skin of children to be intermediate between the colors of the parents, but with wide variation possible among the children of the same couple, although the skin of any individual is usually fairly uniform.
Assuming that leaf number in clovers is a binary trait, controlled by a single autosomal (non-sex) gene, and that two-leaf (T) is dominant over four-leaf (f), AND assuming that T and f are equally common, we have:
(note: phenotype means the observed characteristic, such as two leaves or four leaves)
genotype: phenotype: proportion of population:
TT two 1/4
Tf two 1/2
ff four 1/4
(I’m assuming you know or can figure out why Tf is twice as common as either TT or ff)
Note that all four-leaf clovers are ff, and that in the above case two thirds of two-leaf clovers are Tf and that one third of two-leaf clovers are TT.
BC’s four-leaf clover must be ff. His two-leaf clover can be either TT or Tf.
if the two-leaf is TT, all the offspring of the cross will be Tf two-leaf clovers.
if the two-leaf is Tf, half the offspring will be Tf two-leaf clovers, and half will be ff four-leaf clovers.
(If, under the above assumptions, BC mates lots of two-leaf clovers with lots of four-leaf clovers, it is left as an exercise to the disinterested reader to show that the offspring will be distributed as follows:
genotype: phenotype: proportion of population:
TT two 0
Tf two 2/3
ff four 1/3
Four-leaf clovers aren’t lucky, anyway. St. Patrick used the shamrock (3-leaf clover) to illustrate the principle of the Trinity, so what would the 4th leaf represent?
I don’t know, let’s think about that. Could it be…SATAN?!?
As Dr. Bronowski said in “The Ascent of Man”, chapter 12, “Generation Upon Generation”:
“And there is a hint that he [Gregor Mendel] was regarded as unreliable by the Emperor’s Secret Police. Under the abbot’s brow there lay a weight of private thought.
“The puzzle of Mendel’s personality is an intellectual one. No one could have conceived those experiments unless they had clearly in their minds the answer that they were going to get. It is a strange state of affairs, and I should give you chapter and verse for that.
“First, a practical point. Mendel chose seven differences between peas to test for at the time, such as tall versus short, and so on. And indeed the pea does have seven pairs of chromosomes, so you can test for seven different characters in genes lying on seven different chromosomes. But that is the largest number you could have chosen. You could not test for eight different characters without getting two of the genes lying on the same chromosome, and therefore being at least partially linked. Nobody had thought of genes or heard of linkage then. Nobody had even heard of chromosomes at the time when Mendel was actually working on the paper.
“Now surely you can be destined to be the abbot of a monastery, you can be chosen by God, but you cannot have THAT luck. Mendel must have done a good deal of observation and experiment before the formal work, in order to tease out these and convince himself that seven qualities or characters was just what he could getaway with.”
I guess St. Patrick wasn’t up on his Hebrew then was he? Another reason to de-emphasize the religious aspect of St. Patrick’s Day.
“Drink me, I’m Guinnish!”
The statistic I’ve heard which best explains the “averaging out” of the height of one’s parents is this: The vast majority of men, regardless of their fathers, end up taller than their mothers. The vast majority of women, regardless of their mothers, end up shorter than their fathers.
In re: Joe’s comment on the Greek for “Holy Spirit”: as Walter Bauer’s Greek-English Lexicon points out, a noun phrase in Greek must have either two pronouns or none. “The spirit the holy” is definitely and emphatically “the Holy Spirit”. “Spirit holy” could be simply “a holy spirit”, but it could also be taken in context as definite (“the Holy Spirit”).
Greek has the presence or absence of a pronoun (two choices) to cover what English covers with two pronouns or none (three choices). There are other rules involved which are beyond my ability to discuss.
In Hebrew it’s “the Spirit of Holiness”, basically (Ruach ha-Qodesh).
The truth or error of the Trinity doctrine goes beyond these issues. In fact you don’t even have to touch upon grammar to disprove that doctrine, although grammar helps. As a matter of history, a framework of interpretation was imposed on the Greek New Testament from an outside source, notably by Origen and the Alexandrian School of Theology (so to speak).
“My sacred ancient holy text is better than your accursed ancient holy text! Neener neener!”
I’ve spent decades attempting to understand why so many people are so willing to believe impossible, unsupportable things, and I’m not happy about the conclusion I’m leaning towards: that as a species we are just too stupid. Otherwise it should all have been settled after the Enlightenment discovered the universe is not haunted.
GROG Premium Member about 14 years ago
I’m with you, Peter
Top of the Mornin’ Lonewolf & LuvH8!
kits about 14 years ago
no comic?
MontanaLady about 14 years ago
Hey, is everyone at the St. Paddy’s day Parade?????
Helllllloooooooo?
COWBOY7 about 14 years ago
And a Happy St. Patrick’s Day to All!
G’Morning to LuvH8 & Grog!
crazyasabull about 14 years ago
kits, I take it you were having difficulties viewing it as well? I cannot figure out why it will not work.
claudiamichael about 14 years ago
were still loading…….
BigChiefDesoto about 14 years ago
Despite Gregor Mendel, everybody STILL thinks that genetics goes by averages! Men and women have been going to bed together for millions of years but they don’t produce freaks, they produce either men or women.
drwatson about 14 years ago
Based on the Punnett square, there is a 7 in 8 possibility you will get a 2 leaf clover and a 1 in 8 possibility you will get a 4 leaf clover. You will not get a 3 leaf clover without mutation.
cdward about 14 years ago
No pic here. But if you’re watching the NYC St. Patrick’s Day parade, my kid is marching in it!
Keith Martin Premium Member about 14 years ago
The comic didn’t load for me either. Odd how some people based on their comments seem to have been able to view the comic, while others can’t. I guess we’re not privileged ;)
sottwell about 14 years ago
Doing a bit of snooping it appears that the actual link to the comic image is resulting in a 500 server error. So we get the rest of the page, but no comic image.
Ooops! Premium Member about 14 years ago
COWBOY7 about 14 years ago
Peter has all the books on these matters. I’m with him!
mj1311 Premium Member about 14 years ago
The comic is there! It’s a polar bear in a snowstorm eating a vanilla ice cream cone!
hancel about 14 years ago
nothing, nada
wminfield about 14 years ago
The Fern Whisperer is a scam artist.
zev.farkas about 14 years ago
drwatson -
Actually, it’s a lot more complicated than that (what were your assumptions, anyway?)
(caution: skip the rest if you are easily bored, etc…)
Lots of traits don’t follow the binary (off/on) model that Mendel studied. Instead, they are determined by multiple genes in complicated ways - an example is skin color in humans, where there is a tendency for the skin of children to be intermediate between the colors of the parents, but with wide variation possible among the children of the same couple, although the skin of any individual is usually fairly uniform.
Assuming that leaf number in clovers is a binary trait, controlled by a single autosomal (non-sex) gene, and that two-leaf (T) is dominant over four-leaf (f), AND assuming that T and f are equally common, we have: (note: phenotype means the observed characteristic, such as two leaves or four leaves)
genotype: phenotype: proportion of population: TT two 1/4 Tf two 1/2 ff four 1/4
(I’m assuming you know or can figure out why Tf is twice as common as either TT or ff)
Note that all four-leaf clovers are ff, and that in the above case two thirds of two-leaf clovers are Tf and that one third of two-leaf clovers are TT.
BC’s four-leaf clover must be ff. His two-leaf clover can be either TT or Tf.
if the two-leaf is TT, all the offspring of the cross will be Tf two-leaf clovers.
if the two-leaf is Tf, half the offspring will be Tf two-leaf clovers, and half will be ff four-leaf clovers.
(If, under the above assumptions, BC mates lots of two-leaf clovers with lots of four-leaf clovers, it is left as an exercise to the disinterested reader to show that the offspring will be distributed as follows:
genotype: phenotype: proportion of population: TT two 0 Tf two 2/3 ff four 1/3
) comments (humorous or otherwise) welcome…
txmystic about 14 years ago
♫I’m lookin’ over, a three-leaf clover, that I overlooked be-three…♫
…wait…
Me_Again about 14 years ago
Pretty weird phenotype blend, but hey, it’s a COMIC STRIP.
ninmas about 14 years ago
happy st. patrick’s day!!!!
Dry and Dusty Premium Member about 14 years ago
Hi Joe! :-)
lightenup Premium Member about 14 years ago
I can see the comics just by going directly to the site. Are you going through an email link?
Dry and Dusty Premium Member about 14 years ago
lightenup, I think they fixed the problem, because I can now too.
fritzoid Premium Member about 14 years ago
Four-leaf clovers aren’t lucky, anyway. St. Patrick used the shamrock (3-leaf clover) to illustrate the principle of the Trinity, so what would the 4th leaf represent?
I don’t know, let’s think about that. Could it be…SATAN?!?
freeholder1 about 14 years ago
Breed the luck out of ‘em? Married a non-Irish did ye?
BigChiefDesoto about 14 years ago
Hi zev.farkas,
As Dr. Bronowski said in “The Ascent of Man”, chapter 12, “Generation Upon Generation”:
“And there is a hint that he [Gregor Mendel] was regarded as unreliable by the Emperor’s Secret Police. Under the abbot’s brow there lay a weight of private thought.
“The puzzle of Mendel’s personality is an intellectual one. No one could have conceived those experiments unless they had clearly in their minds the answer that they were going to get. It is a strange state of affairs, and I should give you chapter and verse for that.
“First, a practical point. Mendel chose seven differences between peas to test for at the time, such as tall versus short, and so on. And indeed the pea does have seven pairs of chromosomes, so you can test for seven different characters in genes lying on seven different chromosomes. But that is the largest number you could have chosen. You could not test for eight different characters without getting two of the genes lying on the same chromosome, and therefore being at least partially linked. Nobody had thought of genes or heard of linkage then. Nobody had even heard of chromosomes at the time when Mendel was actually working on the paper.
“Now surely you can be destined to be the abbot of a monastery, you can be chosen by God, but you cannot have THAT luck. Mendel must have done a good deal of observation and experiment before the formal work, in order to tease out these and convince himself that seven qualities or characters was just what he could getaway with.”
Wildmustang1262 about 14 years ago
I had seen many, many clovers with two, three, four, five and more leaves on the lawn.
johnnydoc5 about 14 years ago
txmystic, love it. Joe, law of averages didn’t apply to me, I guess, I am taller than my dad and much taller than my mom.
fritzoid Premium Member about 14 years ago
I guess St. Patrick wasn’t up on his Hebrew then was he? Another reason to de-emphasize the religious aspect of St. Patrick’s Day.
“Drink me, I’m Guinnish!”
The statistic I’ve heard which best explains the “averaging out” of the height of one’s parents is this: The vast majority of men, regardless of their fathers, end up taller than their mothers. The vast majority of women, regardless of their mothers, end up shorter than their fathers.
GROG Premium Member about 14 years ago
Fritzoid, I’ll drink to that, but right now I’m having a Smithwick’s.
Rakkav about 14 years ago
In re: Joe’s comment on the Greek for “Holy Spirit”: as Walter Bauer’s Greek-English Lexicon points out, a noun phrase in Greek must have either two pronouns or none. “The spirit the holy” is definitely and emphatically “the Holy Spirit”. “Spirit holy” could be simply “a holy spirit”, but it could also be taken in context as definite (“the Holy Spirit”).
Greek has the presence or absence of a pronoun (two choices) to cover what English covers with two pronouns or none (three choices). There are other rules involved which are beyond my ability to discuss.
In Hebrew it’s “the Spirit of Holiness”, basically (Ruach ha-Qodesh).
The truth or error of the Trinity doctrine goes beyond these issues. In fact you don’t even have to touch upon grammar to disprove that doctrine, although grammar helps. As a matter of history, a framework of interpretation was imposed on the Greek New Testament from an outside source, notably by Origen and the Alexandrian School of Theology (so to speak).
pschearer Premium Member about 14 years ago
“My sacred ancient holy text is better than your accursed ancient holy text! Neener neener!”
I’ve spent decades attempting to understand why so many people are so willing to believe impossible, unsupportable things, and I’m not happy about the conclusion I’m leaning towards: that as a species we are just too stupid. Otherwise it should all have been settled after the Enlightenment discovered the universe is not haunted.
buzzbomb711 over 2 years ago
I’m looking over a 3 leaf clover that I’ve overlooked be-three!