Tom Toles for December 10, 2012

the elephant only deals in bull.

Many on there boards have challanged others to define what’s fair. It’s fair to say that it’s a pretty difficult task.-However, it’s pretty to recognize some situations as UNfair. For example, Romney paying 13% on an income of $20 million, or whatever it was, is obviously unfair, even though it may not be illegal. The same is true of hedge funds paying little or nothing on incomes in the millions or tens of millions. -A single person making $50,000 will pay about twice the percentage that Romney does. Payroll taxes + income taxes (no, they’re not zero) will take about 25% of that income. Call the tax anything you like, but the govt gets its 25%. -I realize that it’s all nice and legal.-If anyone wants to claim that this situation IS legal, please show your work. And remember that this example is for 2011, so the dreaded ACA taxes do not apply.

If I recall the story correctly, a con man tricks a boy into trading the family cow- itself on the way to market because the family had no money- for “magic” beans. The beans end up actually being magical and this young man, born in poverty, climbs the highest heights, faces enormous challenges, and at the end of the day, makes life better for himself, his familiy, and by destroying a threat- his community. Sounds like “the American Dream”. As one who feels the current republican party is made up of plutocrats who are more interested in protecting the wealthy than lifting the poor and middle class to a better place, it amuses me to see the “con man” trying to give Jack the cow back. Obama took the Republicans beans- Romney care became Obama care, the Dream Act became an executive order permitting children raised in our nation a path to citizenship, etc.- and despite unprecedented obstructionism, started the slow climb out of the muck he inherited as President. There’s still a long way to go, and in our story, we have yet to face and overcome the dangers to come, but at least we are making the effort and climbing. Now if we can just keep anyone from cutting down the tree while we’re still climbing. And sadly, we have too many in politics willing to do harm to protect donors and dogmas.Respectfully,C.

You’re making a classic simpleton’s argument. Nice job..A family living in most parts of the US can barely live off $50,000 as it is. Take away $6,500 and you create a crisis and undermine a struggling family and you’re taking someone on the cusp of public assistance and knocking them over the edge..On the other hand, ANYONE can live lavishly off $17,400,000. Take away $2,600,000 and you create a temper tantrum and motivation to lobby the government using the millions they still have..People who are willing to sit in their mansions and watch their neighboring communities collapse around them because they feel unaccountable to the workers, communities, governments and public infrastructure that made them rich are the worst kind of traitors and fiends.

Are you trying to say that all Americans should pay the same dollar amount in taxes? If so, how do you see that as being fair, much less practical? If not, what did your last post mean?

Ima believes that the rich need more, the poor need less. He’s a conservative, and they’ve been winning that war for the past thirty years. Anyone who truly believes that “all men are created equal” would be very leery of dynastic wealth, but people like Ima truly believe that the rich are better people.

Lemme tell you why….

20% of the income of a billionaire means having to wait until next year to afford that private island

20% of the income of the working poor means having to wait until next year to afford DENTAL work

And how did the Koch brothers get their money?

Or Sheldon Adelson

self employed middle-class taxes: withholding:33.3%%SS 11% sales tax(here is 10%) gasoline tax almost 50 5entsper gallon . or 15%…comes to approx..70…???

“We should all pay the same %age—why is that not fair, Browser?”-Two replies H:1) Does your above comment mean that you support raising the % on the wealthy? Or lowering it on the not-so-wealthy?- 2) I believe that the wealthier should pay a higher percentage of their income (TRUE income, not parsing it into different classes of income) for three reasons: A) The richer a person is, the more access they have to government. They’re able to hire people to craft legislation and lobby before public servants, without having to put themselves at an inconvenience. The poor, on the other hand, have to take time out of their lives to try to make their case, often travelling great distances just to be heard once by their federal representatives. The higher taxes are a type of surcharge for the short-cut that exists for the rich. B) Paying a larger pecentage is less of a burden on wealthier individuals than poorer. A person making $22,000/year giving up 20% of his/her pay has less ability to pay for needs than a person making $250,000/year paying 30%. C) The services that government provides benefit the rich more than they do the poor. Governmental programs such as food stamps and Medicaid do little more than keep the poor alive and healthy (usually), but our military and public transportation infrastructure make large-scale commerce available to monied interests at the lowest cost. Such benefits should be paid for, no?

So if it’s fair for the ‘mommy’ government to take 30% right off the top of what the guy earning $50k/year, why not for the guy who makes $5 million a year?

Okay, so here’s a system that treats everyone the same way.

Everyone pays 0% on the first $30,000.Everyone pays 5% on the next $20,000.Everyone pays 10% on the next $50,000.Everyone pays 20% on the next $100,000.Everyone pays 50% on the next $200,000.Everyone pays 60% on the next $100,000.Everyone pays 70% on the next $100,000.Everyone pays 75% on anything more than that.

(Figures can be adjusted.)Seems fair to me.

“Why should they pay more as you state—the majority of the “rich” got there through sacrifices.”-Lots of poor got to where they are by sacrifice too.-" I have no problem with raising taxes on the wealthy as long as it is also applied to ALL taxpayers."-Does this mean that if the super-rich go from 15% to 35%, that the middle-class have to go from 35% to 55%?

Flat tax theory = flat earth theory.Aside from the fact that a flat tax would not create enough revenue, there is the idea that the wealthy benefit from our civilized society more than others.

I love how the libs here talk about raising taxes even higher on people that actually produce wealth. Theres not too many poor guys paying peoples 50k a year salaries. btw Where is this money going to go? Give each congressmen a billion to spend? More food stamps? Longer unemployment and welfare benefits?

1. Obama should be taxed just the same as everyone else. And he is. And he’s said he’s willing to be taxed at a higher rate.

2. No. How many times do we have to go through this. I’ve lived in the US and I’ve lived i Canada and I have first-hand experience with both systems. Neither system is perfect. I much prefer the Canadian system. You persist in ignorance and prejudice.

3. What?

All the talk about wealth, but “wealth” by itself doesn’t create one damn job. Hedge fund managers making millions by moving money from account to account, betting against themselves to cover their bets, and getting richer while not creating anything but money, then socking it away to get taxed at a lower rate. If it’s not defined as EARNED income, tax it at a higher rate. Republicans keep asking where are the jobs, but they need to look in the mirror. If cutting taxes on the rich created jobs, we would not be trying to claw our way out of a depression, not a “recession”, as the jobs should have been flowing like water after the Bush tax cuts!

SculluUFO: Next time you are in that library, try reading JRR Tolkien’s On Fairy Stories. If they have it in the fairy tale department, try another library as they flunked cataloging. It should be in literary criticism, or in a collected work titled A JRR Tolkien Reader (it is a fairly long essay). You might learn what fairy tales really are and not assume they are kiddie fiction.

‘Wait until you receive your 2012 or 2013 W2 form’-No one can accuse you of approaching the subject of income taxes with excess rigor.

I can think of a few doctors who would have their asses rightfully sued if I was living in the US. There are problems with the Canadian system, but it’s the way the system is set up.