Tom Toles by Tom Toles

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believecommonsense said, 5 months ago

I agree with uncle dick … it is far, far better to bomb and invent wars with other peoples than to actually talk to them
Anthony 2816 said, 5 months ago

If god wanted us to talk to the Islam nations, he wouldn’t have given us unmanned missile-carrying drones.
harleyquinn said, 5 months ago

The only thing they respect is the heal of the enemies boot. If you do not show them your strength they will not listen and respect you. It was good to show them that we are ticked off. But maybe it is time now to put the ball back in their court.
I like this comic. Bush used the foot with the arrows, nothing wrong with that. It was the right thing at the time. Now is the time to turn the page. Show them that we are a peaceful nation. People of any faith can live together. That is what we are about. We can work together to root out the extremist in your nation. We can respect those who respect us.
So this may shock some but way to go Obama you did not go over there and apologize for being an American.
ezdeb said, 5 months ago

Geez, Harleyquinn, the enemy’s boot? strength=respect? Good that they see we are ticked off? At what? At whom? I like the misspellings, especially the “heal” of our boot. Your last paragraph is the best. As if it’s shocking that our president will address the rest of the world. To ppl like you, any smile or handshake is “apologizing”. You sound like your message would be more like “You all are lucky we will talk to you instead of bombing you. Ponder that while we tell you how better to live.”
TrickyPickle said, 5 months ago

I think reaching out to muslims is a good idea. As long as you mean it. However, I also don’t think that the muslim world is particularly interested in being reached out to. Not the moderates who aren’t interested in western values and certainly not islamic hardliners who view anything non-muslim as a target they are obligated by Allah to destroy. But I suppose you have to try and start somewhere.
anat622 said, 5 months ago

Well, the thing about Obama showing the US eagle and pointing to the foot with the olive branch is that the foot with the arrows is also very much on view as a backup option. Excellent cartoon that captures the complexity of diplomacy. Toles is far and away my favorite cartoonist on this site (even though I lean to the right).
dtroutma said, 5 months ago

Muslims about equal the number of “Christians”. My ancestor Cherokee felt the heel of that “Christian” boot, as have many other cultures. Pointing fingers might just want to be pointing at a mirror. We were told our Vietnamese “enemies” were all atheist Communists, guess we forgot to check on the Buddhists and other religions subscribed to by the majority of those folks.

We do need to talk to folks, and we even owe a few apologies. Many of those apologies are due to “religious zeal”.
harleyquinn said, 5 months ago

1st off Pete how I understand it the arrows, which represent the 13 colonies standing together in war, can be on in either foot depending on if we are at war or not. But I might be mistaken. Maybe it is which way the Eagle faces?
Ezed you have to speak their language of diplomacy threw a position of strength and the higher ground. If not, they can and as history shows, they will make false promises In their eyes, we can never be under Islam law. If that is the case then they will need another reason to work with us. For the better of man kind to them=Islam law so that will not work. So when I say we need to show them if you do cross us we will be right back to where you where. So hopefully the moderates among you who are tired of the extremists causing trouble do something about them! Or we will be back because you have shown that is what we have to do to keep them from doing more stupid things.
I have said it many times here. We can not end this WAR! Only they can!
fritzoid said, 5 months ago

The vast majority of Muslims, while they DO believe in the superiority of their own particular brand of “Truth”, are NOT in favor of Global Jihad.

The vast majority of Christians, while they DO believe in the superiority of their own particular brand of “Truth”, are NOT in favor of spreading Christianity by the sword.

I know the Koran has some passages that explicitly call for forced conversion, but Christians historically have not shied away from such tactics either, and just because they aren’t NOW launching another Crusade doesn’t mean that they will never ever try it again (I’m not trying to predict any future events, either short-term or long-term). ANd when it comes to conflicting religions, people have LONG memories (the blood libel of Jews as “Christ-Killers” has been far too long in dying out, despite the fact that it was the Romans, i.e. Gentiles, who actually carried out the crucifixion).

After centuries of Catholic/Protestant bloodshed in Europe, it was mutual outreach that (in most but not all cases) brought an end to hostilities. Ecumenicism has eased tensions among Protestantism, Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Judaism, and there are Buddhists (I’m thinking of the Dalai Lama, in particular) and Hindus (Gandhi) who have reached the same conclusions from other directions. Have there been Islamic proponents of peace? Yes, there have. If we lump them together with Jihadists as some monolithic Muslim “enemy”, are we doing anything other than HARMING our credibility when we say they they have nothing to fear from US?

I don’t really know whether there can be TRUE peace among the Peoples of the Book, unless and until we rediscover the (secular and humanist) principles of the Enlightenment. The Muslim world didn’t go through that period, and the Christian world seems to be forgetting it.

If you’ve been paying attention to my previous posts you already know I’m an atheist, and part of what KEEPS me an atheist is the inability of people who DO believe in Allah/JHVH/God the Father to play nicely and SHARE him…
Anthony 2816 said, 5 months ago

The thing that keeps me an atheist is Occam’s Razor.
fennec said, 5 months ago

The arrows are not representative of the 13 colonies (there are only six of them). If anything they likely represent the symbol of the Iroquois confederation. According to old stories, at the initial meeting to form the confederation, the prime mover (called by Longfellow Hiawatha, but that wasn’t his true name) demonstrated to the powerful chiefs of the other tribes that one arrow could easily be broken but six together could not. A parable, if you will, but this became symbolic for the confederation (which still exists today).
fritzoid said, 5 months ago

Anthony, there’s that too, of course. It’s interesting to remember that William of Ockham was a MONK. He formed his razor as an argument that monotheism was simpler, and therefore more likely, than polytheism, but I wonder how he would have felt had he reflected that “subtraction of unnecessary deities” might lead to ZERO as well as to One (or Three Who Are One). ( I don’t mean to imply that he would have been upset by it, but I don’t mean to imply the contrary either.)

(Personal peeve: In the movie “Contact” they have an astrophysicist explain Occam’s Razor to a JESUIT HISTORIAN who seems never to have heard of it! I know they’re REALLY explaining it to the audience, but at that moment the movie lost what little credibility was left at that point. By the end, the movie’s credibility was in negative numbers…)
Anthony 2816 said, 5 months ago

Maybe if he had lived today, he would have made it to zero.

So many times in history “we don’t understand” was equated to “therefore a god did it”.

We’ve gotten rid of many of the “we don’t understand”, but for most people getting rid of the “therefore a god did it” is just too big a leap.

But not for atheists.
fritzoid said, 5 months ago

I like to think maybe he CONSIDERED that it might lead to zero, but kept that idea to himself (presumably, he was no fool).
ezdeb said, 5 months ago

“Ezed you have to speak their language of diplomacy threw a position of strength and the higher ground.”

Well, the U.S. has always been about the higher ground, even if it means pulling out of treaties, or just ignoring international law, etc. Woops, see your next statement:

“If not, they can and as history shows, they will make false promises In their eyes, we can never be under Islam law”.

Ahem. “If not, the US gov’t can and as history shows, they will make false promises. In their eyes, native people can never adequately govern themselves.” There. I removed the beam from your eye for you. I also worked on the punctuation and run-on sentence, but I don’t expect thanks.

“If that is the case then they will need another reason to work with us. For the better of man kind to them=Islam law so that will not work. So when I say we need to show them if you do cross us we will be right back to where you where.”

Almost incomprehensible, but I think I got it. Let me ask you, HQ, if “they” are extremists, they won’t work with us. That’s what makes them extreme. You must mean the gov’ts of the middle east, no? Did you see the debate between Iran’s presidential candidates? There’s no “they” there!

“So hopefully the moderates among you who are tired of the extremists causing trouble do something about them! Or we will be back because you have shown that is what we have to do to keep them from doing more stupid things.
I have said it many times here. We can not end this WAR! Only they can!”

Oh HQ, if you must resort to so many exclamation points, you’re one step away from ALL CAPS!!!! Seriously, the formerly sovereign citizens of Iraq, the widows and the mutilated children will, I’m sure, do their best to remember that only they (!) can stop the extremism that didn’t exist in any war-fomenting form until we occupied their country. You’d love to think we have to keep bombing until “they” are…um, defeated utterly. We have to. Are you on active duty or a veteran, HQ? Just askin’.
M Kitt said, 5 months ago

The GOP gives license to a broad range of hatred among it’s members, their bigotry isn’t narrowly confined, many have said B. Obama’s affiliation with Islamic family members makes him anti-American, why not just cross-index the spectrum of persistent ignorance that makes up the core of the GOP and admit that his brown skin bothers you a lot, Repubs. Many of your’ party have no problem admitting it, you’ll feel better for being honest about yourself. And throw gays in there somewhere, wouldn’t be the same blend of hatred without them, come on, GOP, indulge.
churchillwasright said, 5 months ago

FENNEC: There ARE 13 arrows in the great seal:
http://tinyurl.com/r76ak6
M Kitt said, 5 months ago

Right wingers would like to believe that all Muslims do what their fundamentalists do, just as the right wing would like for us to accept their version of 911 that it doesn’t matter which Muslim did it, they’re all guilty. Neocons propose that Muslims worship satan in order to rationalize our invasion of Islamic countries (Iraq at the very least, we’ll see if others follow), is that OK? Any idea what the number of civilian non-combatants killed in Iraq is to date? Difficult to establish since the numbers aren’t openly released in the U.S. but the British Surgeon/Registry of Professional Doctors states in the Lancet, a non-partisan medical journal, that one million is a low reasonable estimate. A little accounting says that our 3-4K dead on 911 is a drop in the bucket by comparison, what is the connection, by the way, between responsibility for 911 and these dead civilian Iraqis?
churchillwasright said, 5 months ago

KITT: How many times did Bush go on TV and tell the world that we were NOT at war with Muslims?

Also, how many of those civilian casualties were the result of “military collateral damage” and how many were the result of Muslims killing Muslims?
harleyquinn said, 5 months ago

“Right wingers would like to believe that all Muslims do what their fundamentalists do, just as the right wing would like for us to accept their version of 911 that it doesn’t matter which Muslim did it, they’re all guilty.”

Nope and here is the rub. Just as W said you are either with us or against us. They can either say we are not with them we will work with you or if they do not? Well Guess what you remain a breeding ground we will just have to shut down.

“can stop the extremism that didn’t exist in any war-fomenting form until we occupied their country. You’d love to think we have to keep bombing until “they” are…um, defeated utterly. We have to. Are you on active duty or a veteran, HQ? Just askin’.”

I am calling BS on your they did not exist. Sorry buddy but after 9/11 it was recognized that they were at war with us before all of this. Or have you forgotten the Cole or even the 1st trade center failure. You see just like those two 9/11 did not accomplish what they wanted so who is to say they will not try again.

Oh I don’t know why don’t you ask them why they put their civilians in harms way? I mean the USA would never strap a bomb to a mother and her baby and walk them into a crowd. Or put a school in the middle of a bomb making factory or such. This is what they do. Or how about case of them posing dead bodies around where we had bombed to “claim” as many dead as they can.

But after saying all that Obama is doing the right thing by sticking his hand out. My bet is he will not have all his fingers when he gets it back.
And I HOPE I am wrong on that account and they have CHANGEd.
M Kitt said, 5 months ago

You give lie to the concept of the entire Islamic religion being responsible for terrorism, HQ. I for instance would never conduct a war the way the GOP under W did, pre-emptively crossing international borders on the known false premise of WMDs and I don’t behave the way fundamentalist christians do as stated in my last post, the point being that most reasonable people don’t behave like either terrorists or fundamentalist neocons either here or in the Islamic world. The terrorists from 911 were without exception NOT Iraqis, nearly all were Saudis. If you really have difficulty in your’ mind seperating all Muslims from one another it may by now be be due to conditioning, after all the 911 hijackings were conducted by Saudis and Iraq eventually was blamed by the neocons, unfortunately the GOP likes to blur the details endlessly…………….to their benefit of course. But close Bush family ties to the Saudi royal family have never been denied, they’re much too well documented. Turn off the right wing propaganda for a little while and think about others as actual human beings…..
M Kitt said, 5 months ago

Churchhill isn’t considering the cause or current condition of the war, the one million estimate was over a year ago and precedes most of the infighting and civil disputes we’re the cause of, how about addressing pre-emption as a tactic not used under any administration before W, as well as the rendition Cheney is trying to sell to the public on Fox disinformation network, groundbreaking agenda you’ve got there GOP. How about Habeus Corpus, the right to be brought to trial and charged before a jury, before leaving office in complete dishonor former AG Gonzales declared U.S. citizens shouldn’t have that right either, another 1st brought to us courtesy of W incorporated. What won’t the GOP do to hold onto power? Apparently only time will tell.
M Kitt said, 5 months ago

Regarding nationally televised statements about this not really being a war of Christians/Muslims, Church, we also declared on national television that the war was a “Crusade”, their fundamentalists conduct terrorism and ours support taking us into pre-emptive wars in the name of Christianity. Falwell, Robertson, assorted others have ALWAYS stated that this is an end time holy war, much as you may pretend not to know it, the religious “right” that really isn’t.
M Kitt said, 5 months ago

HQ you have no idea what you’d do after 6-7 years of occupation, or are we actually rescuing them from Saddam? No, wait, we’re looking for WMDs, maybe that was last month and now we’re trying to hold back opposing forces of a civil war that took over 4 years of U.S. troops on the ground to break out. Look in the mirror and ask what we’re really doing there, GOP, even the right-wing spin machine will eventually admit we went there for oil and even failed at that….U.S. and Iraqi casualties (that apparently don’t count) for a war based on completely false premises.
M Kitt said, 5 months ago

The Lancet British physicians journal says those were non-combatants, Churchill, and although I don’t know specifically how they established that let’s simply suppose that I humor you for a moment and grandly overstate the number, suppose I give you an unlikely 50% of them that were guilty of something more than simply being in an occupied country, does the 500,000 number of fatalities give you comfort? This is where the statement on the bumper sticker “Not in my Name” comes to mind, try to tell me Gore or Kerry would have gone into Iraq….nope, only the Neocons.
believecommonsense said, 5 months ago

HarleyQ, was glad to read your comment that Obama is doing right thing to talk to Muslim countries.
good!
Anthony 2816 said, 5 months ago

I always thought it kind of ironic that on 9/11 we were attacked by religious fundamentalists, and the first thing the Republicans did was invoke religious fundamentalism as a response.

Sigh.
lalas said, 5 months ago

HQ – glad to hear you’re on board with this one.

Next question though, do you think Dick should show some respect and STFU? It was amusing for a while, but now his blathering is utterly disrespectful. Righties think Clinton sullied the office…. Cheney is so unbecoming.
fritzoid said, 5 months ago

As far as Muslim-on-Muslim casualties go, we DO have to accept at least partial responsibility for those. Saddam was a bad man, I’ve never denied that, but under his regime Iraq was stable. It was like Soviet hegemony in Balkans. However bad it was, if that power structure is removed then all the suppressed ethnic/sectarian tensions explode leading to civil war and (in some cases) genocidal impulses.

The collapse of the Soviet system was unplanned, however inevitable it might appear in hindsight. When we took out Saddam, we should have KNOWN what was going to happen afterwards. Hell, there were people who DID know that this was going to happen, and were shouting it out BEFORE the invasion, but they were ignored at best or charged as “unpatriotic” or “traitors” at worst.

People who claim the moral high-ground by saying we saved the lives of innocent victims by removing Saddam ignore that his body-count for the last 7-odd years would likely have been dwarfed by the mountain of equally-innocent corpses that have resulted from his removal.

Yes, the “Surge” may have slowed the death-steamroller of Iraqi civillians that was set in motion by our initial invasion, but can we say that we’re now “winning” as a result? What happens when we pull out again? Is an increase of American forces simply more bricks on the lid of a boiling pot? To shift metaphors, if we SET the house on fire, and have now managed to wrestle the inferno into a “controlled” burn, can we honestly expect thanks for “saving” the house? Is that what “winning” means?

A modest proposal: We withdraw immediately, at least as far as trying to prop up a democratic government that Iraq didn’t ask for and, by all appearances, is unable or unwilling to support. We bypass both the Shi’ites AND the Sunnis, and declare that the Sufis are going to get the chance of running the country. The Sufis seem to me like the most laid-back of the Muslims, and they deserve a shot.

It would be like ending Protestant/Catholic strife in Ireland by putting the Unitarians in charge…
Anthony 2816 said, 5 months ago

Fritzoid, regarding your 2nd paragraph:

“To occupy Iraq would instantly shatter our coalition , turning the whole Arab world against us and make a broken tyrant into a latter day hero—- assigning young soldiers to a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning them to fight in what would be an un-winnable urban guerrilla war. It could only plunge that part of the world into even greater instability. ”

“A World Transformed” George H W Bush 1998
fritzoid said, 5 months ago

Agreed, Anthony. That makes it all the more ironic that W tried to justify the invasion with “After all, this is the guy who tried to kill my dad.”
TrickyPickle said, 5 months ago

This page is filled with so many half-truths, repeated falsities and mile-wide holes that I can’t even begin to address them.
fritzoid said, 5 months ago

Very convincing, Tricky. I’m sure millions will be swayed by the force of your arguments. Incisiveness like that hasn’t been seen since the Lincoln-Douglass debates.

If you don’t know where to begin, why don’t you start with the falsities? Since those would be questions of fact, they should be easier to effectively discredit.
cdward said, 5 months ago

Just out of curiosity, are there any Muslims reading here? I’d be very interested in hearing your take on all this.
fennec said, 5 months ago

churchill, i stand corrected, there are 13. But the inspiration for the arrows was from the Native Americans (and possibly for other of our ideas of government as well).
oldlegodad said, 5 months ago

cdeward…quite possibly zilch…zero…just as there are very few literate ‘muricans here either.
stealth6948 said, 5 months ago

Religion is like a booby trap, leave it alone and it will not blow up in your face. Mess with it and it will blow up in your face.
senorbullwinkle said, 5 months ago

HEY, TRICKY I’M PICKLED, Is it your mind, liver, or both, that’s pickled ? I know I do my BEST Rite’n after I’ve finished my box of wine. How ‘bout you ? Or are you just born that way. Anyway ……CHEERS !
M Kitt said, 5 months ago

Google search “Gonzales habeus corpus” this was just the top link…..http://www.baltimorechronicle.com/2007/011907Parry.shtml
M Kitt said, 5 months ago

OGD, if you’re so much better info’d than the posters, give it up.

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