Oh please! Every president has done this – and should once in awhile. What they shouldn’t do is take so much time off to go to the faux ranch that they hardly ever work.
i don’t recall any other president being criticized for expenses that are required to take a president from one location to another … Bush got criticized for his excessive time spent on vacation in Texas but that’s a different issue
there are times that I can’t help but think some of the criticisms against Obama are hidden racism …. when he and his presidency are treated differently than the 43 that came before him, that seems the only possible explanation
I have a male friend (former, actually) who does not believe he is racist at all, yet some of his comments about Obama during the primaries struck me as racist … i thought at the time that the idea of a black (half black-half white) man actually being President, actually being IN CHARGE brought out hidden racism within my friend
churchill, I was not being facetious … it has occurred to me that some of the most personal and most outlandish attacks on Obama are underlying racism.
as far my friend, no his criticisms were not about policies … most weren’t even that concrete … he must have sent me 20 or 30 viral e-mails, every single one of which was debunked by snopes.com
the latest one he sent me was supposedly a white paper written by a noted and respected historian which compared Obama to Hitler and this time in the USA’s history to the time in Germany preceding Hitler’s rise
it didn’t take a big intellect to figure it was a hoax, too many throw away lines picking up on all the sleaze that thrown at Obama during the primaries, too many positive references to Palin which made the origin of the white paper suspect. Sure enough, I checked on snopes, it was a hoax, written by somebody but not a noted historian.
that was less a month ago. and to be honest, it ticked me off that he was still sending this shjt six months after the election. So I sent him the link to snopes, asked him how it felt to be one of the lazy dumbos all these viral e-mails are intended to impress and told him not to send me any more.
After the election, we watched a 60 Minutes interview with Obama and Biden. My so-called friend actually liked Biden. During the interview, Biden at one point called Obama “boss” and I saw my so-called friend have a visceral, physical reaction to that. That’s when it struck me whether he was aware of it or not, he was offended by a white man calling a black man “boss.”
That’s still my belief and, yes, I’m willing to lose a friend over that.
Not sure I’m willing to lose a friend over a perceived intolerance. Not if he’s a real friend anyway. I think we can’t only keep as friends only people who think like we do or hold only the values we hold. I think that’s a sort of an intolerance on its own. And it doesn’t allow us to grow as people if we don’t get other perspectives, even ones we think are plain old wrong.
TrickyPickle, interesting screen name, BTW. In general, I try to give people room when it comes to political beliefs, but I do have a hard time with racism and sexism. I don’t want to tolerate it or pretend it’s OK if it’s presented to me over and over again.
I don’t want only friends that hold same opinions I do, how boring that would be! What I have trouble with is people who cannot discuss their beliefs and what brought them to their own conclusion. Intelligent, informed discussion is great, I learn a lot that way.
But those who can’t explain or discuss their expressed thoughts because they’re simply parroting something they heard or read without exercising their brain aren’t people I want to hear from again.
In the case of the friend I mentioned, tell me, if someone had sent you hateful e-mails about a politician or official, and those e-mails are proved false, wouldn’t you begin to question the veracity of e-mails from that friend after the third or fourth one? Would you keep sending them to others without checking them on snopes or other fact-checking sites knowing that the sender has sent so many false e-mails in the past?
See, that makes me lose respect for someone, not because of the beliefs they hold, but because they’re choosing to be willfully ignorant AND hateful and spread that ignorance and hatefulness around willy nilly.
For me, it’s hard to want a meaningful friendship with someone whom I can no longer respect.
well since I started this most serious train of thought of mine, I should and will respond in all seriousness
fennec, your point is well taken; if my friend thought it was humorous to continue sending me sleazy, hateful and most assuredly false e-mails six months after the election, it wasn’t, not to me. Bigotry and hate and lies aren’t funny.
And the truth is, he kept believing all of those false, hateful e-mails were true. Thus, willful ignorance.
DredP, if it came off as intolerant in the telling of it, perhaps I told it badly or perhaps we just disagree. Talking about issues of race is good, it can be both instructive and constructive. That’s not the issue. In the case of my friend, there was never any real discussion, as i said, because he could do no more than parrot whatever he heard or read and had trouble admitting it was not true even when presented with positive proof. Why? Because he wanted to believe it, I suspect, it confirmed the hidden bigotry within himself that he didn’t believe he had.
Which leads me to this: I don’t tolerate blatant racist remarks — I speak up and I have for a long time.
I cannot respect people who create safe harbors for their bigotry and prejudice by couching it in repeating lies, slander and hate. If I can’t respect a person because of that, why would I want them for a friend? And back to my friend, when the first few viral e-mails were debunked, I thought he was intelligent enough to realize he should do some fact checking before accepting them as gospel. That didn’t happen, thus I believe it became a CHOICE to be ignorant and bigoted. As I said, it took months for me to come to this realization and quite frankly, become a bit disgusted.
churchill., thanks for your response cause I know we disagree on many issues. I’m glad you have a low threshold for racism, too. And you’re right, these e-mails and comments he made were all along the lines of “got sworn in with his hand on the Koran,” “won’t salute the flag,” “he’s not an American citizen,” “he’s a radical Muslim,” etc., In fact, if you go to snopes, look up all the viral e-mails that are proved false (and ugly) and I’m sure he sent 99 percent of them to long lists of people, including me
(an aside: one of the worst was a supposed research paper done by a supposed constitutional scholar that used a bunch of supposed quotes from the constitution and amendments to claim Obama could not possibly by a U.S. citizen because his father was born in Kenya and citizenship is determined by the country of birth of the father. Wow, every single thing was false, including the facts, including the phony constitutional scholar. It took me less than a minute to know it was fake and phony. Don’t we all know that if you’re born in the U.S. you’re a citizen, no matter if your father was born in Kenya or England or Mexico or Australia? sigh)
And I completely agree with you that there are false cries and claims of racism. O.J. Simpson, Clarence Thomas both invented claims of racism where any reasonable person would think., say what? i remember hearing some talking head on a news talk fest claiming that the government would never have charged Michael Vick if he wasn’t black. Huh? I don’t think so. Let’s see, to follow that reasoning, if the government gets a tip about a crime committed by a minority, they are racist to follow up the tip? No, don’t think so.
and BTW, I’m caucasian, FWIW
lastly, I think I’ve learned I shouldn’t post those inner musings that I feel too strongly about to find humor in. I apologize for the length of these posts.
everybody get a good night’s sleep, I need one for sure!
Interesting posts. Psychology studies have long shown that minorities on juries tend to favor the accused – a fact which all smart defense attorneys know. The reason is that they have experienced enough bias themselves to mistrust authority in general. I know an African-American professional – Ph.D, high-paid consultant to senior managers – who thought there was a real possibility OJ was framed. I had no such doubts, but I’m not African-American. (Also, I know more than a little about patterns of abusers.)
One conclusion I considered was that the LAPD tried to frame a guilty man – and screwed it up.
I think the situation I commented on was where there is a case of ‘perceived’ intolerance rather than a factual one. If your friend exhibits proven and demonstrated behaviors that are truly disturbing and irreconcilable to you then of course that friendship will end. There’s ‘difference of opinion’ and then there’s ‘anathema’. I wouldn’t dream of telling you what is right or wrong for you, heck what do I know? In terms of horrible emails I tend to let a lot of that slide. I’ve a couple friends who keep circulating the Zeitgeist stuff to me despite pointing out numerous sources that disprove them. I keep ‘em around because both have great senses of humor and a deep capacity for love and a willingness to share it. I don’t agree with them, and constantly tell them so. They’re idiots, but they’re MY idiots. :) In the end, we make our own decisions and keep our own counsel on who we keep as friends because in the end of the day, all that matters are our relationships, no?
churchill, actually I did concur with you that there are false cries of racism and cited some examples as I see them.
On the reverse side, it’s ironic that Limblahah is calling Sotomayor racist as he has a long history of racist remarks. I’m sure you heard Pat Buchanan has now said that this country is practicing Jim Crowism against white men and he thinks white men are the subject of the the most bigotry in this country. (if you can find it online, it’s worth watching, Buchanan is NUTSO.)
If Obama runs for re-election and doesn’t win, some may claim racism, but it will be for other reasons. That’s all an unknown in the future which may or may not happen.
churchill, sorry, I didn’t see your comment – since I figured this was a “one comment” issue, I quit reading after awhile. I do that when things get busy around here.
You’re right that there will always be someone who sees racism (or reverse racism) in everything. But I don’t think the majority will see it that way. Of course, as BCS says, there’s no way to predict what will happen.
Binary, yes the White House grounds do contain those things, but I’m guessing you’re being facetious. It would be a horrible idea for them to stay cooped up inside their golden cage. It’s a good idea to go on a real date once or twice a year.
BTW, my wife and I go out to lunch (while the kids are at school) at least once a week. Wie schön!
An interesting election. First time in any election I nearly lost friends over my support for Obama. My friends are white I just found their little racist hearts. Whites can’t hide it from other whites. They can make any excuse they want .
Sure, this election brought out all the racists. The amazing thing is the number of voters who were not racist, who were open to the idea of a bi-racial man having the smarts and temporment to handle the job of President.
ktzoobee, I get what you’re saying absolutely. If I could discuss it with friends, it was cool. But the friends it wasn’t possible to have a discussion with, that was not so cool. It was shocking.
Well dred, IF you believe the “N”word can describe anyone, what you are saying in essence, is that if you were at a majority white function and someone suddenly said who invited the “N” you wouldn’t look for a particular skin color? If you did, what would that make you? Would that be an example of it applying to anyone? If so how? Everyone is racist to a degree, it’s when stereyotypes and other speculation causes hatred, violence and the inability to be fair and balanced toward “EVERYONE” that we crumble as a society. And crumble we have.
sarah palin and a large chunk of alaskans must be up on charges then? I must have missed that then common. don’t get me wrong i’m an animal lover and don’t believe he should have ever been released from prison. However senselessly murdering dogs is a criminal offense…..even if you happen to be the governor.
The next old white guy theory would be relevant, if it weren’t for the fact that some white folks assume that the only reason that a black person would vote for Obama was because he himself was black. (you’re probably one of them) and that is a form of racism in itself. Worry about blacks would cry, when you first confront the fact that that’s the very reason you didn’t vote for him.
Hey dead, what color would he be if he got caught up in a serious scandal? When I hear bi-racial I don’t believe you have accepted that he’s black. Remember according to the laws of “WHITE” America “if he is 1/5 negro blood he is black, not bi-racial.
cdward almost 15 years ago
Oh please! Every president has done this – and should once in awhile. What they shouldn’t do is take so much time off to go to the faux ranch that they hardly ever work.
tpenna almost 15 years ago
My wife and I are going on a date this Friday night! And I don’t feel guilty at all! Nobody should feel guilty for having a date night!
believecommonsense almost 15 years ago
i don’t recall any other president being criticized for expenses that are required to take a president from one location to another … Bush got criticized for his excessive time spent on vacation in Texas but that’s a different issue
there are times that I can’t help but think some of the criticisms against Obama are hidden racism …. when he and his presidency are treated differently than the 43 that came before him, that seems the only possible explanation
I have a male friend (former, actually) who does not believe he is racist at all, yet some of his comments about Obama during the primaries struck me as racist … i thought at the time that the idea of a black (half black-half white) man actually being President, actually being IN CHARGE brought out hidden racism within my friend
believecommonsense almost 15 years ago
churchill, I was not being facetious … it has occurred to me that some of the most personal and most outlandish attacks on Obama are underlying racism.
as far my friend, no his criticisms were not about policies … most weren’t even that concrete … he must have sent me 20 or 30 viral e-mails, every single one of which was debunked by snopes.com
the latest one he sent me was supposedly a white paper written by a noted and respected historian which compared Obama to Hitler and this time in the USA’s history to the time in Germany preceding Hitler’s rise
it didn’t take a big intellect to figure it was a hoax, too many throw away lines picking up on all the sleaze that thrown at Obama during the primaries, too many positive references to Palin which made the origin of the white paper suspect. Sure enough, I checked on snopes, it was a hoax, written by somebody but not a noted historian.
that was less a month ago. and to be honest, it ticked me off that he was still sending this shjt six months after the election. So I sent him the link to snopes, asked him how it felt to be one of the lazy dumbos all these viral e-mails are intended to impress and told him not to send me any more.
After the election, we watched a 60 Minutes interview with Obama and Biden. My so-called friend actually liked Biden. During the interview, Biden at one point called Obama “boss” and I saw my so-called friend have a visceral, physical reaction to that. That’s when it struck me whether he was aware of it or not, he was offended by a white man calling a black man “boss.”
That’s still my belief and, yes, I’m willing to lose a friend over that.
TrickyPickle almost 15 years ago
Not sure I’m willing to lose a friend over a perceived intolerance. Not if he’s a real friend anyway. I think we can’t only keep as friends only people who think like we do or hold only the values we hold. I think that’s a sort of an intolerance on its own. And it doesn’t allow us to grow as people if we don’t get other perspectives, even ones we think are plain old wrong.
believecommonsense almost 15 years ago
Howie, no jest
TrickyPickle, interesting screen name, BTW. In general, I try to give people room when it comes to political beliefs, but I do have a hard time with racism and sexism. I don’t want to tolerate it or pretend it’s OK if it’s presented to me over and over again.
I don’t want only friends that hold same opinions I do, how boring that would be! What I have trouble with is people who cannot discuss their beliefs and what brought them to their own conclusion. Intelligent, informed discussion is great, I learn a lot that way.
But those who can’t explain or discuss their expressed thoughts because they’re simply parroting something they heard or read without exercising their brain aren’t people I want to hear from again.
In the case of the friend I mentioned, tell me, if someone had sent you hateful e-mails about a politician or official, and those e-mails are proved false, wouldn’t you begin to question the veracity of e-mails from that friend after the third or fourth one? Would you keep sending them to others without checking them on snopes or other fact-checking sites knowing that the sender has sent so many false e-mails in the past?
See, that makes me lose respect for someone, not because of the beliefs they hold, but because they’re choosing to be willfully ignorant AND hateful and spread that ignorance and hatefulness around willy nilly.
For me, it’s hard to want a meaningful friendship with someone whom I can no longer respect.
believecommonsense almost 15 years ago
well since I started this most serious train of thought of mine, I should and will respond in all seriousness
fennec, your point is well taken; if my friend thought it was humorous to continue sending me sleazy, hateful and most assuredly false e-mails six months after the election, it wasn’t, not to me. Bigotry and hate and lies aren’t funny. And the truth is, he kept believing all of those false, hateful e-mails were true. Thus, willful ignorance.
DredP, if it came off as intolerant in the telling of it, perhaps I told it badly or perhaps we just disagree. Talking about issues of race is good, it can be both instructive and constructive. That’s not the issue. In the case of my friend, there was never any real discussion, as i said, because he could do no more than parrot whatever he heard or read and had trouble admitting it was not true even when presented with positive proof. Why? Because he wanted to believe it, I suspect, it confirmed the hidden bigotry within himself that he didn’t believe he had.
Which leads me to this: I don’t tolerate blatant racist remarks — I speak up and I have for a long time.
I cannot respect people who create safe harbors for their bigotry and prejudice by couching it in repeating lies, slander and hate. If I can’t respect a person because of that, why would I want them for a friend? And back to my friend, when the first few viral e-mails were debunked, I thought he was intelligent enough to realize he should do some fact checking before accepting them as gospel. That didn’t happen, thus I believe it became a CHOICE to be ignorant and bigoted. As I said, it took months for me to come to this realization and quite frankly, become a bit disgusted.
churchill., thanks for your response cause I know we disagree on many issues. I’m glad you have a low threshold for racism, too. And you’re right, these e-mails and comments he made were all along the lines of “got sworn in with his hand on the Koran,” “won’t salute the flag,” “he’s not an American citizen,” “he’s a radical Muslim,” etc., In fact, if you go to snopes, look up all the viral e-mails that are proved false (and ugly) and I’m sure he sent 99 percent of them to long lists of people, including me
(an aside: one of the worst was a supposed research paper done by a supposed constitutional scholar that used a bunch of supposed quotes from the constitution and amendments to claim Obama could not possibly by a U.S. citizen because his father was born in Kenya and citizenship is determined by the country of birth of the father. Wow, every single thing was false, including the facts, including the phony constitutional scholar. It took me less than a minute to know it was fake and phony. Don’t we all know that if you’re born in the U.S. you’re a citizen, no matter if your father was born in Kenya or England or Mexico or Australia? sigh)
And I completely agree with you that there are false cries and claims of racism. O.J. Simpson, Clarence Thomas both invented claims of racism where any reasonable person would think., say what? i remember hearing some talking head on a news talk fest claiming that the government would never have charged Michael Vick if he wasn’t black. Huh? I don’t think so. Let’s see, to follow that reasoning, if the government gets a tip about a crime committed by a minority, they are racist to follow up the tip? No, don’t think so. and BTW, I’m caucasian, FWIW
lastly, I think I’ve learned I shouldn’t post those inner musings that I feel too strongly about to find humor in. I apologize for the length of these posts. everybody get a good night’s sleep, I need one for sure!
Motivemagus almost 15 years ago
Interesting posts. Psychology studies have long shown that minorities on juries tend to favor the accused – a fact which all smart defense attorneys know. The reason is that they have experienced enough bias themselves to mistrust authority in general. I know an African-American professional – Ph.D, high-paid consultant to senior managers – who thought there was a real possibility OJ was framed. I had no such doubts, but I’m not African-American. (Also, I know more than a little about patterns of abusers.) One conclusion I considered was that the LAPD tried to frame a guilty man – and screwed it up.
TrickyPickle almost 15 years ago
I think the situation I commented on was where there is a case of ‘perceived’ intolerance rather than a factual one. If your friend exhibits proven and demonstrated behaviors that are truly disturbing and irreconcilable to you then of course that friendship will end. There’s ‘difference of opinion’ and then there’s ‘anathema’. I wouldn’t dream of telling you what is right or wrong for you, heck what do I know? In terms of horrible emails I tend to let a lot of that slide. I’ve a couple friends who keep circulating the Zeitgeist stuff to me despite pointing out numerous sources that disprove them. I keep ‘em around because both have great senses of humor and a deep capacity for love and a willingness to share it. I don’t agree with them, and constantly tell them so. They’re idiots, but they’re MY idiots. :) In the end, we make our own decisions and keep our own counsel on who we keep as friends because in the end of the day, all that matters are our relationships, no?
believecommonsense almost 15 years ago
churchill, actually I did concur with you that there are false cries of racism and cited some examples as I see them.
On the reverse side, it’s ironic that Limblahah is calling Sotomayor racist as he has a long history of racist remarks. I’m sure you heard Pat Buchanan has now said that this country is practicing Jim Crowism against white men and he thinks white men are the subject of the the most bigotry in this country. (if you can find it online, it’s worth watching, Buchanan is NUTSO.)
If Obama runs for re-election and doesn’t win, some may claim racism, but it will be for other reasons. That’s all an unknown in the future which may or may not happen.
Bittermelon of Truth almost 15 years ago
Re: the actual cartoon- the White House grounds contains a bowling alley and movie theater. Why on earth would they need to go outside?
cdward almost 15 years ago
churchill, sorry, I didn’t see your comment – since I figured this was a “one comment” issue, I quit reading after awhile. I do that when things get busy around here.
You’re right that there will always be someone who sees racism (or reverse racism) in everything. But I don’t think the majority will see it that way. Of course, as BCS says, there’s no way to predict what will happen.
Binary, yes the White House grounds do contain those things, but I’m guessing you’re being facetious. It would be a horrible idea for them to stay cooped up inside their golden cage. It’s a good idea to go on a real date once or twice a year.
BTW, my wife and I go out to lunch (while the kids are at school) at least once a week. Wie schön!
ktzoobee almost 15 years ago
An interesting election. First time in any election I nearly lost friends over my support for Obama. My friends are white I just found their little racist hearts. Whites can’t hide it from other whites. They can make any excuse they want .
deadheadzan almost 15 years ago
Sure, this election brought out all the racists. The amazing thing is the number of voters who were not racist, who were open to the idea of a bi-racial man having the smarts and temporment to handle the job of President.
believecommonsense almost 15 years ago
ktzoobee, I get what you’re saying absolutely. If I could discuss it with friends, it was cool. But the friends it wasn’t possible to have a discussion with, that was not so cool. It was shocking.
superfly-tnt almost 15 years ago
Well dred, IF you believe the “N”word can describe anyone, what you are saying in essence, is that if you were at a majority white function and someone suddenly said who invited the “N” you wouldn’t look for a particular skin color? If you did, what would that make you? Would that be an example of it applying to anyone? If so how? Everyone is racist to a degree, it’s when stereyotypes and other speculation causes hatred, violence and the inability to be fair and balanced toward “EVERYONE” that we crumble as a society. And crumble we have.
superfly-tnt almost 15 years ago
It’s spelled Quaran and what if he was sworn in on one? Are we intolerant of Muslims?
superfly-tnt almost 15 years ago
sarah palin and a large chunk of alaskans must be up on charges then? I must have missed that then common. don’t get me wrong i’m an animal lover and don’t believe he should have ever been released from prison. However senselessly murdering dogs is a criminal offense…..even if you happen to be the governor.
superfly-tnt almost 15 years ago
The next old white guy theory would be relevant, if it weren’t for the fact that some white folks assume that the only reason that a black person would vote for Obama was because he himself was black. (you’re probably one of them) and that is a form of racism in itself. Worry about blacks would cry, when you first confront the fact that that’s the very reason you didn’t vote for him.
superfly-tnt almost 15 years ago
Hey dead, what color would he be if he got caught up in a serious scandal? When I hear bi-racial I don’t believe you have accepted that he’s black. Remember according to the laws of “WHITE” America “if he is 1/5 negro blood he is black, not bi-racial.