Just a short note on the Canadian health care system, as it works in Ontario. On Sunday night I started to notice a sort of a flash in the corner of my right eye. It happened a few times. It happened again, not so frequently, on Monday morning. I looked it up, and I found that this flashing can be a symptom of a tear in the retina. So Monday evening I went to our local hospital emergency room. I’ve been there a couple of times before, and they have always been very good – though slow. The doctor saw me around 10:30 and did a good examination, given that it was an emergency room and he wasn’t a specialist, and said that he saw no evidence of a tear, so that he wasn’t going to call in the surgeon. He then made an appointment for me for Monday afternoon – the very next day – with the ophthalmology department. And he said if anything should change over night I should come right in and he would get the surgeon out of bed.
So I saw the ophthalmologist yesterday, and I had the most thorough examination I’ve ever had – and I might add, the most painful. Anyway, the result was that I seem to be okay. The doctor said that many people come in with these symptoms, and of those, about 5% have a tear or a separation, but they check everyone out thoroughly to make sure. They gave me a follow up appointment in six weeks, and repeated that if such-and-such happened I should come in at any time and they would see me immediately.
In my opinion, this was very good care. And it’s available to anyone who walks into the emergency room, no questions asked.
Now of course I pay for all of this through my taxes. I pay more than some people, because I have a pretty good income, and less than others. But for each appointment I simply hand the clerk my plastic health insurance card, and the clerk does the rest. I don’t see a piece of paper, I don’t sign anything, and I don’t have to worry about reaching some limit or any kind of co-payment or anything like that.
The Canadian system is not perfect. But since there has been a lot of what I feel is misinformation spread about it, I thought I should give people on the list a taste of what actually happens here.
And if anyone mentions Danny Williams, I will simply scream.
Happy September, 2010…!
8 weeks and 5 days until VOTE DAY…!
Pundits on both sides, D and R, are saying that the Obamacare is the #1 problem, and the poor Economy is #2…..dead weights on incumbent Democrats.
But Republican incumbents are also facing angry voters….Alaska’s Murkowski is #3 top GOP Senator to be replaced in the primary votes….senators called “moderate” because they supported and voted for Liberal Democrat bills, including the Excess Spending and Reform bills that empowered the Federal bureaucrats to intrude into every area of American’s lives and to take over vast areas of Private Enterprise by Fed Control.
I haven’t heard of Mitt Romney going down in flames, and “ObamaCare,” due to Democrats’ spinelessness, really just ended up being a version of “RomneyCare.”
Hey, the healthcare bill hasn’t even taken affect yet. A friend who only has medicare, is presently being billed for close to a half million$ because she has no other insurance and can’t afford any on her SS.
Justice, if I were you, then I would pay no attention to DisTax. He merely parrots Teapublican talking points gleaned from the mainstream media. He is “disgusted” about paying taxes only since an intelligent, moderate, African-American Democrat replaced his stupid, corrupt, regressive, wealthy European-American Republican as president.
For the ten years of pointless, bloody, and terribly expensive invasions of foreign lands, DisTax never expressed his “disgust”. He has supported these invasions from the safety of his basement, never once volunteering to join the unfortunate men & women sent as pawns of Bush-Dick and his wealthy friends.
Thanks, Lonecat, for your anecdote about Ontario’s healthcare. I have heard similar stories from friends in Europe. A friend—a Republican medical doctor friend (although now that the Republican Party has changed into the Teapublican Party, I don’t know how she identifies her politics)—described the great care her mother (definitely a Teapublican) received in Italy & England when injured on a trip abroad.
In addition, Lonecat, I am glad to read that the flashes were minor. I trust that they have gone away.
The Frontline special on health-care was based on T.R. Reid’s book, The Healing Of America, which I recommend to anyone interested in this subject.
charlie555 – I would have needed a referral to see an ophthalmologist. I could have seen my family doctor the same day, but she doesn’t have the necessary ophthalmological equipment. She might have been able to book me in with an ophthalmologist the next day, but it was the afternoon before I looked up the condition, so it might have taken another day. Overall, emergency seemed like the best bet. And in the off chance that I needed quick surgery, the hospital seemed like the right place to be. They thought so – I asked them if I had done the right thing, and they said yes. Why the question?
Senor BULL; I try to follow and understand your logic, but then I look at your avatar and it tells me you have not evolved yet. So I will not hold it against you.
Further to lonecat’s post, my experience and evaluation are similar.
Americans might learn something from the Canadian experience. Here’s some history:
Tommy Douglas, premier of the province of Saskatchewan from 1944 to 1961, is considered to be the father of Canadian Medicare. Tommy was a little man with a big heart who believed that no citizen of Saskatchewan should die for lack of health care when health care was available. In the early 1960’s he introduced a bill that would create a universal, single payer health care system. The doctors sought to defeat the bill and went on strike. The American medical establishment joined forces with their Canadian counterparts to stop “socialized medicine”. What the American and Canadian medical establishment didn’t count on was that the little man was a tough fighter. He fought the medical establishments to a standstill, and in 1962 Saskatchewan had the first universal health care system in North America.
In 1962 John Diefenbaker, Conservative prime minister, considered using the Saskatchewan plan as a model for all of Canada. A Royal Commission chaired by Justice Emmett Hall was given the job of studying a national plan. Justice Hall recommended a national universal plan modelled after Saskatchewan’s. In 1966, under the Liberal government of Lester B. Pearson, universal health care became a reality for all Canadians.
In 2004, Canadians were asked to name “The Greatest Canadian” of all time. The Canadian public’s choice was Tommy Douglas who beat out other great Canadians such as Sir Charles Banting (cure for diabetes), Alexander Graham Bell (inventor of the telephone), and Don Cherry (hockey bafoon - (joke)). Canadians like their health care system. And why not - its affordable (approximately 40% to 50% less than U.S.) and on average we live longer. If we get sick, we don’t have to balance health treatment with cost. Treatment is free for the sick person, since payment comes from tax revenue. The sick person chooses the best treatment in consultation with the doctor.
The most charitable thing you can say about the Obama health care reform is that it’s a start. Those clever Republicans have assured that the plan will not be popular with the public. By keeping insurance companies in the mix, costs will be about 30% higher than they should be, and an unnecessary level of bureaucracy is inserted between patient and doctor.
I said that if anybody mentioned Danny Williams I would scream. I will now officially scream. Stebon – you have been fooled. Tricked. Deluded. And you allowed it to happen to you. You should be ashamed. You should look up the story and find out the facts before you refer to it. I have no idea why Williams went to the US – he has refused to talk about it. The procedure he wanted is widely available in Canada. Perhaps you are being deluded about other issues as well. This scream is now officially over.
Referrals are a pain in the patoot… especially paper referrals. Before our company switched us over to a different healthcare system I had an HMO thing… and it was fraught with frustrations and repeat visits to the office trying to get the situations straight on both ends which once almost culminated in my traveling for almost 2 hours to see a specialist (who would actually treat me) for a routine visit that I’d already been doing for over a year… and after having had to take off hours from work to do this, I was almost sent home because my referral was tied up in the system and they had to call my doctor’s office to get a new referral. So I sat there for a good 30 minutes while they tried to get that situated so they didn’t have to send me home.
They finally got it and I got to get the necessary bloodwork, etc. done.
When the nurse took my blood pressure it was really high that day for some reason. >.>
Under our new system I don’t need to have a referral to go see a specialist. When I handed the new insurance card to the people at the front desk at the specialist I go see, they breathed a sigh of relief and were thankful not to need that bleeep anymore.
Stebon could you provide the name of the provincial cabinet minister who went to Seattle for treatment. I’d like to check further. Most of the time those stories are distorted or taken out of context and glomed onto by Talk Radio to malign the single payer health care system. There would be very few procedures hospitals in British Columbia could not do, although possibly there was a highly qualified specialist in Seattle. If treatment was critical, there would not be a wait time of 16 months in Canada. Treatment would be almost immediate.
Are you aware there are tens of thousands of American “medical tourists” seeking affordable medical treatments in foreign countries annually?
MSNBC is sponsoring medical clinics in various locations financed by viewer donations. For a rich developed country like the U.S.A. that is unconscionable.
You’ll hear anecdotal stories that work both ways. I have a friend who suffered a heart attack in Arizona. He received treatment in Phoenix and later back in Canada. He said the treatment received in Canada was head and shoulders above Phoenix.
Opps, looks as if Stebon has made a correction and is talking about the Danny Williams, Premier of Newfoundland case and not a British Columbia cabinet minister to Seattle case. Truth is starting to emerge.
Danny Williams is the premier of Newfoundland and a rich man. He maintains a home in Florida as well as in Newfoundland. The heart treatment he required was rather specialized and possibly could not be done in a relatively small, less developed province like Newfoundland, although it could almost certainly be done in say Montreal or Toronto, as well as many other cities. Since money is no object, he took a former classmate’s recommendation and had the treatment done in a Florida hospital that is close to his Florida residence.
Not to prolong a debate that I have reading about for years but I think the Canadian system and the US system have a few different objectives. I have many fellow personal friend physicians who practice either in Canada or US abutting states.
The Canadians are exactly as well trained and competent as the Americans. Probably trained in the same institutions. Acute care is equally available although possibly because of Canadian govt regs more easily understood there by the less sophisticated. Less having to find your way around.
My Boston, Seattle etc friends say they see many Canadian patients because of the differing goals of the system.
If you need say a routine non emergency hip replacement there are indeed differences. If you must wait 12-18 months you won’t die but just have pain and discomfort. I can get you into an American hospital within 2 weeks.
Longer waits, longer lines, longer lists are an inconvenience and maybe a discomfort but clearly not related to fatalities.
What my Canadian family (Vancouver) tell me is they come to the US to buy many goods because the prices here are significantly less expensive because of health care imposed taxes.
Consider that of premiums paid to our (U.S.) insurance companies, only about 1/3 is actually paid for health care. Paper work, malpractice insurance and payments to stockholders take the other 2/3. In the meantime our doctors are actually underpaid making them inflate their bills by ordering unnecessary tests and treatments.
I used to work with foreign exchange students and even they (15 through 18 year olds) thought our system was antiquated and hard to use. 3 and 4 bills for one trip to the hospital or doctor was unheard of to them. One doctor donated his time to the students for which I was really grateful.
Sorry for not making myself clear. The point being that a tax which covers medical care costs less than medical insurance premiums which will provide the same care. Then there is the matter of deductibles and co-pays which are not used in one payer systems.
So much for the idea of a “liberal media” - when even the CBO says that the healthcare bill will cause a net decrease of the deficit, the majority of the public believes otherwise. Why? Because apparently all those left-wing pundits either don’t know a talking point when they see one or can’t explain worth c..p . Never mind that nearly the entire western world has much more public-influenced systems that provide similar results and cost significantly less. The whole freaking time, they couldn’t get this simple message across.
Apparently, Fox and the right-wing pundits who protest how their ideas are being discriminated against by the evil “mainstream” ARE the mainstream. Good luck, America.
Pretty much right 4uk, and its not just health care. According to Gallop the Republicans hold a 10 percentage point lead over the Democrats, which is the largest lead they have recorded. Much is due to the shear volume of lies, distortions, and stuff out of context that the vast FOX network is able to spew into the airwaves.
I’m disappointed that so many Americans are so gullible or undiscerning that they are not able to see what got them into this mess and where they are likely to go if they continue in the same direction.
No, I wouldn’t say so. If I call in the morning I can see my family doctor the same day. About five years ago I had an accident in which the meniscus in my knee was badly torn, and with help I made it to my family doctor, and he saw me right away. I’ve been to the emergency room twice in the last ten years or so – this time, and once when I accidentally took a double dose of a medication – I called the medical hotline, and they told me to truck right on down to emergency. I’ve been there a few more times with other people, so I am familiar with this hospital, and I feel they are excellent. We also have quite a few walk-in clinics around the city, but I can’t say how good they are. We do have a walk-in clinic at the university where I work, and I have seen a doctor there once or twice, just because I was at work and it was convenient. I like the doctors there. But they don’t have my records, so I would see my family doctor for anything serious.
You asked a very reasonable question regarding the CBO and health related costs. If you carefully read what they stated in their analysis is that they can only go on what data is presented to them. They don’t judge accuracy.
In the ObamaCare bill he very carefully showed all the costs and then said we will pay for them by decreasing payments to physicians and hospitals. The cuts will produce hundreds of billions of dollars in savings. Taking those numbers directly from Obama the CBO did indeed state that the Obamacare bill would produce a net positive.
Here is where is gets tricky. Literally at the same time the ObamaCare bill was being discussed a second bill was introduced. That would prevent the very same decrease in payments to doctors and hospitals. This game has gone on for years under both Obama and Bush. It is the famous Doc Fix.
Since it was a separate bill the CBO did not include it in their ObamaCare analysis. As a matter of fact the bill passed and my pay cut did not materialize.
Since Lincoln freed the slaves we allow free choice and both Presidents realized that if they cut our payments by 22% we would simply stop seeing Medicare patients. That has already begun to happen. Hence every year (10 years?) Doc Fix.
Libertarian, I’m not so sure. When was the fix apopted, anyway - I think I remember hearing about it some time this summer?
Anyway, I am not sure it would matter for the calculations about what the healthcare reform costs. The bill you are telling me about is I believe the one which adjusts payments to Medicare, right? Healthcare “reform” or no, iirc the doctoral pay adjustment get passed anyway. Now, it boils down to this: the “doc fixes” are waivers of savings already implied in the system. When the CBO is checking the effects of the HRB, it compares them to a certain theoretical baseline. The main problem is, does that baseline also include the added costs of waiving the pay cuts for Medicare doctors - the doc fix that you speak of? I rather doubt it - because as these bills haven’t passed either way, how could the CBO be sure they would?
No, I think we can accept that the doc fix would have passed anywhere, iirc both parties have shown willing to support it. In that case, the HRB (without the extra costs for the “doc fix”) would be compared to a baseline that also doesn’t have these extra costs . If so, then the bill would still be cheaper than the alternative: if A-C < B-C, then A<B . After all, had the healthcare reform not passed, the US would still have to pay everything it paid before.
We are discussing 2 different bills. Medicare is the law. Doctors and hospitals get paid. Every year when the Medicare budget is proposed it includes cutting those payments. They never get cut for the reasons discussed above. As I said the proposed cuts for this years medicare budget have been rescinded already (this summer as you said) and the 22% less we were supposed to be paid is no longer applicable. I am receiving the same as last year.
Now totally separate Obamacare. In his proposal he did exactly the same thing every Medicare budget has done. Included enough decrease in physician and hospital payments so that net there is no cost for adding 47 new uninsured people. That is what he gave to CBO and they taking the numbers he gave them dutifully said yes it is free to add 47 million.
Although passed it is not yet operational. No expenditures have been made so the law on the books, not yet operational, shows the net positive. However when the law actually starts and the government says to doctors we are not going to pay you for your services exactly the same thing will happen.
There will be another Doc Fix and the bottom line for ObamaCare will shift to a net $1Trillion deficit. The CBO obviously cannot include that in their calculations so basically their report is meaningless.
Off the top of my head i cannot remember the circumstances but i think Rep Paul Ryan presented a program and the CBO wrote their report based solely on his input which showed either no cost or even a gain. Many items were omitted and the Democrats screamed at the inaccuracy. They were right but that is how the system works.
“There will be another Doc Fix and the bottom line for ObamaCare will shift to a net $1Trillion deficit”
Actually, I think we may be viewing the same thing from two sides. If the added cost of the “fix” is omitted on both sides - as it is included afterwards for both - then those costs can be omitted when we are comparing the two systems for the deficit. If the amount is not added for the system as per the new bill (your “Obamacare”) anymore than it is added in the regular budget, then both can be compared honestly. Yes, “Obamacare” will cost a lot - but the healthcare system costs a bleeep lot without it anyway, so it is perfectly possible for the new system to cost a bit less.
BrianCrook over 13 years ago
Today’s cartoon is so clumsy & stupid that it isn’t worthy of any comment except that one.
And this: How does Lisa Benson keep her job?
ANandy over 13 years ago
Going down in flames. Good riddance.
TheFinalSolution over 13 years ago
^^^ “It’s time to quit playing around with the NO BOTS, and write a real SINGLE PAYER BILL.”
You’re absolutely correct, and that SINGLE PAYER SHOULD BE THE ULTIMATE END USER.
lonecat over 13 years ago
Just a short note on the Canadian health care system, as it works in Ontario. On Sunday night I started to notice a sort of a flash in the corner of my right eye. It happened a few times. It happened again, not so frequently, on Monday morning. I looked it up, and I found that this flashing can be a symptom of a tear in the retina. So Monday evening I went to our local hospital emergency room. I’ve been there a couple of times before, and they have always been very good – though slow. The doctor saw me around 10:30 and did a good examination, given that it was an emergency room and he wasn’t a specialist, and said that he saw no evidence of a tear, so that he wasn’t going to call in the surgeon. He then made an appointment for me for Monday afternoon – the very next day – with the ophthalmology department. And he said if anything should change over night I should come right in and he would get the surgeon out of bed.
So I saw the ophthalmologist yesterday, and I had the most thorough examination I’ve ever had – and I might add, the most painful. Anyway, the result was that I seem to be okay. The doctor said that many people come in with these symptoms, and of those, about 5% have a tear or a separation, but they check everyone out thoroughly to make sure. They gave me a follow up appointment in six weeks, and repeated that if such-and-such happened I should come in at any time and they would see me immediately.
In my opinion, this was very good care. And it’s available to anyone who walks into the emergency room, no questions asked.
Now of course I pay for all of this through my taxes. I pay more than some people, because I have a pretty good income, and less than others. But for each appointment I simply hand the clerk my plastic health insurance card, and the clerk does the rest. I don’t see a piece of paper, I don’t sign anything, and I don’t have to worry about reaching some limit or any kind of co-payment or anything like that.
The Canadian system is not perfect. But since there has been a lot of what I feel is misinformation spread about it, I thought I should give people on the list a taste of what actually happens here.
And if anyone mentions Danny Williams, I will simply scream.
disgustedtaxpayer over 13 years ago
Happy September, 2010…! 8 weeks and 5 days until VOTE DAY…!
Pundits on both sides, D and R, are saying that the Obamacare is the #1 problem, and the poor Economy is #2…..dead weights on incumbent Democrats.
But Republican incumbents are also facing angry voters….Alaska’s Murkowski is #3 top GOP Senator to be replaced in the primary votes….senators called “moderate” because they supported and voted for Liberal Democrat bills, including the Excess Spending and Reform bills that empowered the Federal bureaucrats to intrude into every area of American’s lives and to take over vast areas of Private Enterprise by Fed Control.
May Incumbents enjoy this “Interesting” year.
Justice22 over 13 years ago
^ A republican Senator actually voted for a Democratic Bill?? I can remember only a couple and I bet they hold onto their seats.
pirate227 over 13 years ago
“And this: How does Lisa Benson keep her job?”
Because there are people like ANandy in this country, unfortunately.
Jaedabee Premium Member over 13 years ago
I haven’t heard of Mitt Romney going down in flames, and “ObamaCare,” due to Democrats’ spinelessness, really just ended up being a version of “RomneyCare.”
Justice22 over 13 years ago
Hey, the healthcare bill hasn’t even taken affect yet. A friend who only has medicare, is presently being billed for close to a half million$ because she has no other insurance and can’t afford any on her SS.
BrianCrook over 13 years ago
Justice, if I were you, then I would pay no attention to DisTax. He merely parrots Teapublican talking points gleaned from the mainstream media. He is “disgusted” about paying taxes only since an intelligent, moderate, African-American Democrat replaced his stupid, corrupt, regressive, wealthy European-American Republican as president.
For the ten years of pointless, bloody, and terribly expensive invasions of foreign lands, DisTax never expressed his “disgust”. He has supported these invasions from the safety of his basement, never once volunteering to join the unfortunate men & women sent as pawns of Bush-Dick and his wealthy friends.
Thanks, Lonecat, for your anecdote about Ontario’s healthcare. I have heard similar stories from friends in Europe. A friend—a Republican medical doctor friend (although now that the Republican Party has changed into the Teapublican Party, I don’t know how she identifies her politics)—described the great care her mother (definitely a Teapublican) received in Italy & England when injured on a trip abroad.
In addition, Lonecat, I am glad to read that the flashes were minor. I trust that they have gone away.
The Frontline special on health-care was based on T.R. Reid’s book, The Healing Of America, which I recommend to anyone interested in this subject.
lonecat over 13 years ago
charlie555 – I would have needed a referral to see an ophthalmologist. I could have seen my family doctor the same day, but she doesn’t have the necessary ophthalmological equipment. She might have been able to book me in with an ophthalmologist the next day, but it was the afternoon before I looked up the condition, so it might have taken another day. Overall, emergency seemed like the best bet. And in the off chance that I needed quick surgery, the hospital seemed like the right place to be. They thought so – I asked them if I had done the right thing, and they said yes. Why the question?
worldisacomic over 13 years ago
Senor BULL; I try to follow and understand your logic, but then I look at your avatar and it tells me you have not evolved yet. So I will not hold it against you.
Libertarian1 over 13 years ago
^ lonecat
Welcome to middle age. Floaters and flashing. I am not an ophthalmologist but from memory vast vast majority of time benign but permanent.
Gypsy8 over 13 years ago
Further to lonecat’s post, my experience and evaluation are similar.
Americans might learn something from the Canadian experience. Here’s some history: Tommy Douglas, premier of the province of Saskatchewan from 1944 to 1961, is considered to be the father of Canadian Medicare. Tommy was a little man with a big heart who believed that no citizen of Saskatchewan should die for lack of health care when health care was available. In the early 1960’s he introduced a bill that would create a universal, single payer health care system. The doctors sought to defeat the bill and went on strike. The American medical establishment joined forces with their Canadian counterparts to stop “socialized medicine”. What the American and Canadian medical establishment didn’t count on was that the little man was a tough fighter. He fought the medical establishments to a standstill, and in 1962 Saskatchewan had the first universal health care system in North America.
In 1962 John Diefenbaker, Conservative prime minister, considered using the Saskatchewan plan as a model for all of Canada. A Royal Commission chaired by Justice Emmett Hall was given the job of studying a national plan. Justice Hall recommended a national universal plan modelled after Saskatchewan’s. In 1966, under the Liberal government of Lester B. Pearson, universal health care became a reality for all Canadians.
In 2004, Canadians were asked to name “The Greatest Canadian” of all time. The Canadian public’s choice was Tommy Douglas who beat out other great Canadians such as Sir Charles Banting (cure for diabetes), Alexander Graham Bell (inventor of the telephone), and Don Cherry (hockey bafoon - (joke)). Canadians like their health care system. And why not - its affordable (approximately 40% to 50% less than U.S.) and on average we live longer. If we get sick, we don’t have to balance health treatment with cost. Treatment is free for the sick person, since payment comes from tax revenue. The sick person chooses the best treatment in consultation with the doctor.
The most charitable thing you can say about the Obama health care reform is that it’s a start. Those clever Republicans have assured that the plan will not be popular with the public. By keeping insurance companies in the mix, costs will be about 30% higher than they should be, and an unnecessary level of bureaucracy is inserted between patient and doctor.
lonecat over 13 years ago
I said that if anybody mentioned Danny Williams I would scream. I will now officially scream. Stebon – you have been fooled. Tricked. Deluded. And you allowed it to happen to you. You should be ashamed. You should look up the story and find out the facts before you refer to it. I have no idea why Williams went to the US – he has refused to talk about it. The procedure he wanted is widely available in Canada. Perhaps you are being deluded about other issues as well. This scream is now officially over.
Jaedabee Premium Member over 13 years ago
Referrals are a pain in the patoot… especially paper referrals. Before our company switched us over to a different healthcare system I had an HMO thing… and it was fraught with frustrations and repeat visits to the office trying to get the situations straight on both ends which once almost culminated in my traveling for almost 2 hours to see a specialist (who would actually treat me) for a routine visit that I’d already been doing for over a year… and after having had to take off hours from work to do this, I was almost sent home because my referral was tied up in the system and they had to call my doctor’s office to get a new referral. So I sat there for a good 30 minutes while they tried to get that situated so they didn’t have to send me home.
They finally got it and I got to get the necessary bloodwork, etc. done. When the nurse took my blood pressure it was really high that day for some reason. >.>
Under our new system I don’t need to have a referral to go see a specialist. When I handed the new insurance card to the people at the front desk at the specialist I go see, they breathed a sigh of relief and were thankful not to need that bleeep anymore.
Creniere over 13 years ago
Drat, I wanted to be the first to make lonecat scream….just as a joke, mind you.
Gypsy8 over 13 years ago
Stebon could you provide the name of the provincial cabinet minister who went to Seattle for treatment. I’d like to check further. Most of the time those stories are distorted or taken out of context and glomed onto by Talk Radio to malign the single payer health care system. There would be very few procedures hospitals in British Columbia could not do, although possibly there was a highly qualified specialist in Seattle. If treatment was critical, there would not be a wait time of 16 months in Canada. Treatment would be almost immediate.
Are you aware there are tens of thousands of American “medical tourists” seeking affordable medical treatments in foreign countries annually?
MSNBC is sponsoring medical clinics in various locations financed by viewer donations. For a rich developed country like the U.S.A. that is unconscionable.
You’ll hear anecdotal stories that work both ways. I have a friend who suffered a heart attack in Arizona. He received treatment in Phoenix and later back in Canada. He said the treatment received in Canada was head and shoulders above Phoenix.
Gypsy8 over 13 years ago
Opps, looks as if Stebon has made a correction and is talking about the Danny Williams, Premier of Newfoundland case and not a British Columbia cabinet minister to Seattle case. Truth is starting to emerge.
Danny Williams is the premier of Newfoundland and a rich man. He maintains a home in Florida as well as in Newfoundland. The heart treatment he required was rather specialized and possibly could not be done in a relatively small, less developed province like Newfoundland, although it could almost certainly be done in say Montreal or Toronto, as well as many other cities. Since money is no object, he took a former classmate’s recommendation and had the treatment done in a Florida hospital that is close to his Florida residence.
Libertarian1 over 13 years ago
Not to prolong a debate that I have reading about for years but I think the Canadian system and the US system have a few different objectives. I have many fellow personal friend physicians who practice either in Canada or US abutting states.
The Canadians are exactly as well trained and competent as the Americans. Probably trained in the same institutions. Acute care is equally available although possibly because of Canadian govt regs more easily understood there by the less sophisticated. Less having to find your way around.
My Boston, Seattle etc friends say they see many Canadian patients because of the differing goals of the system.
If you need say a routine non emergency hip replacement there are indeed differences. If you must wait 12-18 months you won’t die but just have pain and discomfort. I can get you into an American hospital within 2 weeks.
Longer waits, longer lines, longer lists are an inconvenience and maybe a discomfort but clearly not related to fatalities.
What my Canadian family (Vancouver) tell me is they come to the US to buy many goods because the prices here are significantly less expensive because of health care imposed taxes.
There is no free lunch.
Justice22 over 13 years ago
Consider that of premiums paid to our (U.S.) insurance companies, only about 1/3 is actually paid for health care. Paper work, malpractice insurance and payments to stockholders take the other 2/3. In the meantime our doctors are actually underpaid making them inflate their bills by ordering unnecessary tests and treatments.
I used to work with foreign exchange students and even they (15 through 18 year olds) thought our system was antiquated and hard to use. 3 and 4 bills for one trip to the hospital or doctor was unheard of to them. One doctor donated his time to the students for which I was really grateful.
Justice22 over 13 years ago
Oh, Yes, Lib, Don’t you pay insurance premiums? Why is a lesser tax worse than a high premium?
Libertarian1 over 13 years ago
^ I don’t understand your question. Lesser tax vs high premium?
Medical care must be paid for, it is not free. We can pay via insurance payments or via income tax, sales tax, VAT taxes etc.
10-20% of all American health related expenses are due to defensive medicine because of trial lawyers law suits.
Justice22 over 13 years ago
Sorry for not making myself clear. The point being that a tax which covers medical care costs less than medical insurance premiums which will provide the same care. Then there is the matter of deductibles and co-pays which are not used in one payer systems.
4uk4ata over 13 years ago
So much for the idea of a “liberal media” - when even the CBO says that the healthcare bill will cause a net decrease of the deficit, the majority of the public believes otherwise. Why? Because apparently all those left-wing pundits either don’t know a talking point when they see one or can’t explain worth c..p . Never mind that nearly the entire western world has much more public-influenced systems that provide similar results and cost significantly less. The whole freaking time, they couldn’t get this simple message across.
Apparently, Fox and the right-wing pundits who protest how their ideas are being discriminated against by the evil “mainstream” ARE the mainstream. Good luck, America.
Gypsy8 over 13 years ago
Pretty much right 4uk, and its not just health care. According to Gallop the Republicans hold a 10 percentage point lead over the Democrats, which is the largest lead they have recorded. Much is due to the shear volume of lies, distortions, and stuff out of context that the vast FOX network is able to spew into the airwaves.
I’m disappointed that so many Americans are so gullible or undiscerning that they are not able to see what got them into this mess and where they are likely to go if they continue in the same direction.
lonecat over 13 years ago
No, I wouldn’t say so. If I call in the morning I can see my family doctor the same day. About five years ago I had an accident in which the meniscus in my knee was badly torn, and with help I made it to my family doctor, and he saw me right away. I’ve been to the emergency room twice in the last ten years or so – this time, and once when I accidentally took a double dose of a medication – I called the medical hotline, and they told me to truck right on down to emergency. I’ve been there a few more times with other people, so I am familiar with this hospital, and I feel they are excellent. We also have quite a few walk-in clinics around the city, but I can’t say how good they are. We do have a walk-in clinic at the university where I work, and I have seen a doctor there once or twice, just because I was at work and it was convenient. I like the doctors there. But they don’t have my records, so I would see my family doctor for anything serious.
Libertarian1 over 13 years ago
4uk
You asked a very reasonable question regarding the CBO and health related costs. If you carefully read what they stated in their analysis is that they can only go on what data is presented to them. They don’t judge accuracy.
In the ObamaCare bill he very carefully showed all the costs and then said we will pay for them by decreasing payments to physicians and hospitals. The cuts will produce hundreds of billions of dollars in savings. Taking those numbers directly from Obama the CBO did indeed state that the Obamacare bill would produce a net positive.
Here is where is gets tricky. Literally at the same time the ObamaCare bill was being discussed a second bill was introduced. That would prevent the very same decrease in payments to doctors and hospitals. This game has gone on for years under both Obama and Bush. It is the famous Doc Fix.
Since it was a separate bill the CBO did not include it in their ObamaCare analysis. As a matter of fact the bill passed and my pay cut did not materialize.
Since Lincoln freed the slaves we allow free choice and both Presidents realized that if they cut our payments by 22% we would simply stop seeing Medicare patients. That has already begun to happen. Hence every year (10 years?) Doc Fix.
4uk4ata over 13 years ago
Libertarian, I’m not so sure. When was the fix apopted, anyway - I think I remember hearing about it some time this summer?
Anyway, I am not sure it would matter for the calculations about what the healthcare reform costs. The bill you are telling me about is I believe the one which adjusts payments to Medicare, right? Healthcare “reform” or no, iirc the doctoral pay adjustment get passed anyway. Now, it boils down to this: the “doc fixes” are waivers of savings already implied in the system. When the CBO is checking the effects of the HRB, it compares them to a certain theoretical baseline. The main problem is, does that baseline also include the added costs of waiving the pay cuts for Medicare doctors - the doc fix that you speak of? I rather doubt it - because as these bills haven’t passed either way, how could the CBO be sure they would?
No, I think we can accept that the doc fix would have passed anywhere, iirc both parties have shown willing to support it. In that case, the HRB (without the extra costs for the “doc fix”) would be compared to a baseline that also doesn’t have these extra costs . If so, then the bill would still be cheaper than the alternative: if A-C < B-C, then A<B . After all, had the healthcare reform not passed, the US would still have to pay everything it paid before.
Libertarian1 over 13 years ago
4uk
We are discussing 2 different bills. Medicare is the law. Doctors and hospitals get paid. Every year when the Medicare budget is proposed it includes cutting those payments. They never get cut for the reasons discussed above. As I said the proposed cuts for this years medicare budget have been rescinded already (this summer as you said) and the 22% less we were supposed to be paid is no longer applicable. I am receiving the same as last year.
Now totally separate Obamacare. In his proposal he did exactly the same thing every Medicare budget has done. Included enough decrease in physician and hospital payments so that net there is no cost for adding 47 new uninsured people. That is what he gave to CBO and they taking the numbers he gave them dutifully said yes it is free to add 47 million.
Although passed it is not yet operational. No expenditures have been made so the law on the books, not yet operational, shows the net positive. However when the law actually starts and the government says to doctors we are not going to pay you for your services exactly the same thing will happen.
There will be another Doc Fix and the bottom line for ObamaCare will shift to a net $1Trillion deficit. The CBO obviously cannot include that in their calculations so basically their report is meaningless.
Off the top of my head i cannot remember the circumstances but i think Rep Paul Ryan presented a program and the CBO wrote their report based solely on his input which showed either no cost or even a gain. Many items were omitted and the Democrats screamed at the inaccuracy. They were right but that is how the system works.
Garbage in- Garbage out.
4uk4ata over 13 years ago
“There will be another Doc Fix and the bottom line for ObamaCare will shift to a net $1Trillion deficit”
Actually, I think we may be viewing the same thing from two sides. If the added cost of the “fix” is omitted on both sides - as it is included afterwards for both - then those costs can be omitted when we are comparing the two systems for the deficit. If the amount is not added for the system as per the new bill (your “Obamacare”) anymore than it is added in the regular budget, then both can be compared honestly. Yes, “Obamacare” will cost a lot - but the healthcare system costs a bleeep lot without it anyway, so it is perfectly possible for the new system to cost a bit less.