@Bruce - The government is not an expert in oil drilling, that is the job, the profit, and the responsibility, of the oil drilling industry.
wait wait, you guys -mm and jade- are being obtuse. What is not logical in saying if the accident had happened at a depth men could survive and work, the repairs would have been over and done with? AND. Who is it that issues permits? AND. Why did the permit issuing authority not understnad the danger of “going deep”? AND. Why did the inspecting authority not inspect? AND. Well, we could and have already asked all these questions.
The accident happened because the companies involved took shortcuts, did not invest money in disaster aversion or disaster preparation (in fact similar companies have the same carbon copies of “on paper” plans, but no investment in disaster aversion), did not abide by safety regulations, and were already guilty of multiple violations before. The only fault here is that they were not shut down because those in charge of oversight were also in charge of getting profit from them, which means obviously, like a judge invested in oil drilling, you’re going to go with what gets you more money.
When issuing a permit are you held at gunpoint to do the drilling on that permit? If that were the case then many of those leases the government has distributed on LAND would actually be used right now, instead of sitting idle. BP (and other companies) CHOSE to drill out there knowing the risks better than everyone else and choosing not to properly invest in disaster prevention.
But to blame this on “liberals forcing them to drill out further” is complete crock. They have unused land leases they simply do not want to drill on, and no one forced them at gun point with ultimatums to kill their families to go drill out there. They did it for profit, they did it because it was their choice to do so and they wanted the money.
It’s not logical because it makes too many assumptions, Bruce. wolfhound left out too many intermediate elements to the chain of reasoning, to wit: That a completely failed plug would not only be easier to fix, but so much easier that it would have been done already. I am not convinced of that. The breakdown here is so substantial that I am not convinced that it would be easier just because it is in shallow water; that’s only one factor.
Secondly, that “the government” is responsible for drilling restrictions. I suspect most people living in the Gulf Coast are not really in favor of big, ugly, oil drills sitting outside their windows. Therefore: the people, not some abstract “government.”
Now your point, Bruce, is well taken, but incomplete as I see it. Had the government (1) enforced existing laws on drilling, (2) imposed stricter regs and requirements, e.g., the autoshutoffs used so successfully by Statoil, (3) made sure the MMS was a real policing body instead of a suck-up, then the accident might not have happened in the first place.
When explanations are too simple, it leads to false conclusions, e.g., “government bad! Government’s fault!” instead of pointing out that it is BP that screwed up here, high, wide, and handsome. The government failed in its regulation, but they didn’t cause the spill, BP did.
Over the weekend a friend of a friend was changing their oil on the side of the street. A police officer drove by and saw what they were doing and issued him a ticket. The officer told him that he could legally take him to jail for crimes against the environment (or some legal mumbo jumbo law). When he told his story to the friend I know she replied to him:
“If you can go to jail for changing your oil, how come nobody is going to jail for the spill in the ocean?”
Goes to show you who the laws in this country favor.
I assume “changing their oil” means letting the crankcase drain onto the ground. I’ve seen many asphalt streets, let alone plant areas destroyed by this. Using a pan and recycling or proper disposal of the oil isn’t a problem.
Also on the “natural spill” in the Gulf, Journal of Geophysical Research noted that in the entire Gulf- estimate was 120,000 barrels PER YEAR!!, from hundreds of seeps. This BP well, when we started getting the real numbers, was dumping that amount every day or two.
Numerous articles point out these random, scattered, and much lower volume spills- “nature” does deal with. The argument that “natural seeps” are greater than Human -caused spills, doesn’t add up.
Thanks, trout.
BP’s own estimates were a worst-case of 100,000 barrels (4.2 million gallons) a day. More than they admitted.
http://tinyurl.com/2dkta73
Current estimates are 35-60,000 barrels a day. BP is claiming they can handle up to 28,000 per day, and they’re trying to increase it.
So much for “natural seeps” exceeding this spill. We’re talking a year’s worth every 2-4 days assuming BP is telling the truth, at 70+ days and counting…
Considering folks were right back to “Driil baby drill”, and oppose the moratorium to check things out before starting up again on exploratory wells, for 1,200 jobs, common sense has also been killed by “big oil”.
Bruce, why can’t I? A certain percentage of people on this list do nothing else…
Seriously, I always have reasons for my opinions. Some may disagree with them. I may not have all the facts. But I always apply logic. Something sadly missing in most of the political debate these days.
Sorry Dtroutma but he used an oil pan and did not pollute. Maybe if he would have incorporated himself he would have gotten a fine instead of being threatened with jail time.
wolfhoundblues1 almost 14 years ago
If the government allowed shallow drilling, the needed repairs could have been easily made.
Motivemagus almost 14 years ago
^Not a logical statement.
Jaedabee Premium Member almost 14 years ago
Wolfhoundblues1’s logic: If Americans weren’t evil, 9/11 wouldn’t have happened.
CorosiveFrog Premium Member almost 14 years ago
wolfhound; is there any oil left in shallow waters?
cfimeiatpap almost 14 years ago
Depends on who you side with……..
http://www.fossil.energy.gov/programs/reserves/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14678206/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/05/AR2006090500275.html
http://www.wikinvest.com/concept/DeepwaterOilExploration
Jaedabee Premium Member almost 14 years ago
@Bruce - The government is not an expert in oil drilling, that is the job, the profit, and the responsibility, of the oil drilling industry.
wait wait, you guys -mm and jade- are being obtuse. What is not logical in saying if the accident had happened at a depth men could survive and work, the repairs would have been over and done with? AND. Who is it that issues permits? AND. Why did the permit issuing authority not understnad the danger of “going deep”? AND. Why did the inspecting authority not inspect? AND. Well, we could and have already asked all these questions.
The accident happened because the companies involved took shortcuts, did not invest money in disaster aversion or disaster preparation (in fact similar companies have the same carbon copies of “on paper” plans, but no investment in disaster aversion), did not abide by safety regulations, and were already guilty of multiple violations before. The only fault here is that they were not shut down because those in charge of oversight were also in charge of getting profit from them, which means obviously, like a judge invested in oil drilling, you’re going to go with what gets you more money. When issuing a permit are you held at gunpoint to do the drilling on that permit? If that were the case then many of those leases the government has distributed on LAND would actually be used right now, instead of sitting idle. BP (and other companies) CHOSE to drill out there knowing the risks better than everyone else and choosing not to properly invest in disaster prevention.But to blame this on “liberals forcing them to drill out further” is complete crock. They have unused land leases they simply do not want to drill on, and no one forced them at gun point with ultimatums to kill their families to go drill out there. They did it for profit, they did it because it was their choice to do so and they wanted the money.
pirate227 almost 14 years ago
Well said, Jade.
Motivemagus almost 14 years ago
It’s not logical because it makes too many assumptions, Bruce. wolfhound left out too many intermediate elements to the chain of reasoning, to wit: That a completely failed plug would not only be easier to fix, but so much easier that it would have been done already. I am not convinced of that. The breakdown here is so substantial that I am not convinced that it would be easier just because it is in shallow water; that’s only one factor. Secondly, that “the government” is responsible for drilling restrictions. I suspect most people living in the Gulf Coast are not really in favor of big, ugly, oil drills sitting outside their windows. Therefore: the people, not some abstract “government.” Now your point, Bruce, is well taken, but incomplete as I see it. Had the government (1) enforced existing laws on drilling, (2) imposed stricter regs and requirements, e.g., the autoshutoffs used so successfully by Statoil, (3) made sure the MMS was a real policing body instead of a suck-up, then the accident might not have happened in the first place. When explanations are too simple, it leads to false conclusions, e.g., “government bad! Government’s fault!” instead of pointing out that it is BP that screwed up here, high, wide, and handsome. The government failed in its regulation, but they didn’t cause the spill, BP did.
WarBush almost 14 years ago
Over the weekend a friend of a friend was changing their oil on the side of the street. A police officer drove by and saw what they were doing and issued him a ticket. The officer told him that he could legally take him to jail for crimes against the environment (or some legal mumbo jumbo law). When he told his story to the friend I know she replied to him:
“If you can go to jail for changing your oil, how come nobody is going to jail for the spill in the ocean?”
Goes to show you who the laws in this country favor.
Dtroutma almost 14 years ago
I assume “changing their oil” means letting the crankcase drain onto the ground. I’ve seen many asphalt streets, let alone plant areas destroyed by this. Using a pan and recycling or proper disposal of the oil isn’t a problem.
Also on the “natural spill” in the Gulf, Journal of Geophysical Research noted that in the entire Gulf- estimate was 120,000 barrels PER YEAR!!, from hundreds of seeps. This BP well, when we started getting the real numbers, was dumping that amount every day or two.
Numerous articles point out these random, scattered, and much lower volume spills- “nature” does deal with. The argument that “natural seeps” are greater than Human -caused spills, doesn’t add up.
Motivemagus almost 14 years ago
Thanks, trout. BP’s own estimates were a worst-case of 100,000 barrels (4.2 million gallons) a day. More than they admitted. http://tinyurl.com/2dkta73 Current estimates are 35-60,000 barrels a day. BP is claiming they can handle up to 28,000 per day, and they’re trying to increase it. So much for “natural seeps” exceeding this spill. We’re talking a year’s worth every 2-4 days assuming BP is telling the truth, at 70+ days and counting…
CorosiveFrog Premium Member almost 14 years ago
War Criminal;
“this is america, justice should favor the rich!”
Jaedabee Premium Member almost 14 years ago
^ One should back up their statements with their reasoning. <3
myming almost 14 years ago
the title of the ‘toon is: things oil KILLS.
let’s talk about THAT.
MurphyHerself almost 14 years ago
“Depressing” isn’t strong enough.
Dtroutma almost 14 years ago
Considering folks were right back to “Driil baby drill”, and oppose the moratorium to check things out before starting up again on exploratory wells, for 1,200 jobs, common sense has also been killed by “big oil”.
myming almost 14 years ago
i KNOW it’s depressing, that’s why i posted it.
think people. THINK…
Motivemagus almost 14 years ago
Bruce, why can’t I? A certain percentage of people on this list do nothing else… Seriously, I always have reasons for my opinions. Some may disagree with them. I may not have all the facts. But I always apply logic. Something sadly missing in most of the political debate these days.
WarBush almost 14 years ago
Sorry Dtroutma but he used an oil pan and did not pollute. Maybe if he would have incorporated himself he would have gotten a fine instead of being threatened with jail time.