Where is he finding them? Observation, patrol- hokey dokey, but we need to remember they can’t do “law enforcement”. That silly Constitution. Citizens should speak “functional” ENGLISH. Citizens should UNDERSTAND the Constitution and law. To vote, you should pass the naturalization test! Gee- about 3/4 of “natural born” citizens would lose the right to vote.
Illegal IS illegal. But maybe like in the drug trade, we need to go after those at the TOP rather than the “worker bees” (or addicts) at the bottom of the profiteering ladder??
The fence is, for many reasons, about the dumbest, and biggest, waste of money in border history. If you want to get serious, use heat-sensitive targeting of weapons that will shoot humans, but not rabbits, coyotes, jaguars, or wildlife species.
The technology is there (okay we can’t plug an oil well, sooo there is some question, BUT) leaving dead bodies along the border WILL feed wildlife, and “send a message”- especially if the wildlife are stoned out of their gourds!!
Interesting point, dtroutma. Regularly pollsters survey people if they would accept the Bill of Rights – not saying that this is what it is, of course – and some massive majority of Americans say they would not. If we gave the citizenship tests on the Bill of Rights to “natural-born” Americans, wonder how they would score? And wouldn’t it be nice if they knew what they were, instead of listening to idiotic distortions thereof for political or advocacy purposes?
Not that I am advocating that citizenship be conditional on a test – WAY too much potential for abuse there…
This is going to happen only in someone’s dream. The last time (Bush years) that the guard went to the border, the Mexican military sent them running. Calderon has already called Obama to threaten him and you won’t see a repeat of the last time. You won’t see a Guardsman within 10 miles of the border. This is all just political cover while Obama challenges the Arizona law in court. Remember this: 1.America already has a humane and reasonable immigration policy. 2. America has laws to deal with companies that hire illegal immigrants and it is never enforced because Obama does not allow work site raids. Everyone since 1986 has had their own excuse for not enforcing the federal law. 3. America has laws to deal with illegal immigrants that have never been enforced and no matter how many new laws are passed they too will never be enforced. Mexicans and for that matter the rest of the world will never understand a limit or a legal process for immigration ever. Obama’s reform will serve only to increase the number of legal immigrants and guest workers without ever reducing illegal immigration. Without serious enforcement of immigration laws and perhaps even a change to the 14th Amendment no increases in immigration quotas will ever reduce illegal immigration until the border is open. Get used to it because it won’t change. Mexico already controls Texas, New Mexico, and California in their entirety and the national government through the Hispanic caucus and the black caucus, the churches, and most of the media such as CNN. My advice to all of you is to learn Spanish or perish.
mrdoody, um, are you suggesting Obama has not allowed work site raids since 1986? And would you mind explaining just where Obama said such a thing? And I should think you could enforce proper laws without “work site raids,” which sound rather Gestapo-like, don’t you think?
And how on Earth could (or would) the Mexican military send the guard running from behind our own border? What, were they invading us? What event is this?
Incidentally, Bush initiated a lot of the guest worker policy, many speculating because he wanted cheap nonunion labor available. And he was a Texas Republican! (Or claimed to be, considering he was born and mostly raised in New England.)
And if you read any history, you will know that (1) our immigration policy has mostly been biased and racist (e.g., the Eastern European Jews escaping Hitler who were turned away during WWII because of quotas based on false assumptions about “racial” intelligence as misguided as anything the Nazis proposed), and (2) Texas, New Mexico, Arizona (you missed Arizona), and California WERE Mexico until we (and James K. Polk) started a war basically to steal them and defend Texans’ rights to own slaves. Mexico forbade slavery, you see. Mexico was forced to sell that territory to us as a result of the Mexican-American War. Technically, most of the original settlers were originally Mexicans! So what’s different?
Incidentally, I do speak Spanish. Americans are shamefully inept at speaking other languages – and their own, for that matter. Learning other languages teaches you a lot, and I wish I were better at it.
Motivemagus, I don’t require a history lesson although I might suggest that you get yours from some place other than La Raza. I guess that I am supposed to respond with that bleeep about the Native Americans here before the Mexicans but I would prefer to talk about this universe and not the alternate universe that you seem to dwell on.
You may want to read number two again since I specifically stated that everyone had their own excuses for not enforcing the immigration laws. As for the immigration quotas I suppose it is OK to just ignore them if they don’t suit you.
I was not referring to the demographic makeup of the states and my exclusion of Arizona was intentional. Arizona still has the political will to pass laws for the protection of their citizens while the other states I mentioned do not. Yes indeed Bush was very pro-illegal. Like all politicians in most of Texas you have to be pro-illegal or you don’t win races.
I cannot makeup for your appalling lack of knowledge on current events but I will press a few points. Worksite raids may or may not be Gestapo like; after all a diamond is just a rock right? Such raids target the employers specifically but the pro-illegal crowd gets upset because the illegal workers are also arrested and those with felonies are deported. What an awful thing to deport criminals.
Admittedly the Mexican incursions across the border seldom make national news. Hell it is hard to get that news locally in Texas and I cannot speak for all of the states but the Mexican army has little respect for the border. Notably during the last Guard deployment heavily armed Mexican troops with guns drawn confronted a Guard unit on the American side of the border. Our guard troops were under specific orders to not shoot and were forced to retreat for their own safety. This did make national news and Mexico claimed that they were just drug smugglers dressed as army. Of course it is well known that the army routinely escorts drugs across the border in Texas and if you wish to characterize that as an invasion I would not argue. In any case you can expect the same this go-around. If the Guard gets too close to the border they will be challenged.
As for the accuracy of any of this I suggest you do your own research. The exercise will do you good. My comments are food for thought and not intended to be Wikipedia entry. I may make an American think but I certainly to do not hope to change the mind of someone with more allegiance to Mexico than to America.
mrdoody, I read scores of history books a year, thanks, none from La Raza. We took those states from Mexico and at the time were proud to do it. You can find it in grade school textbooks, for Pete’s sake (maybe not in Texas, now…). You are apparently inventing history, not me.
You made the outrageous statement that Mexican troops have invaded the US - I’d like a reference, please.
I said NOTHING about ignoring the immigration laws, and indeed have said repeatedly on this list that they should be enforced. I am questioning the methods being used - and the way Arizona has chosen to do so.
And you can take a long hike off a short pier if you think I have “more allegiance to Mexico than to America.” My family’s been here for more than 350 years, and fought in the Revolutionary War, dude. I support America all over the world – but I’m not an ignoramus about this country, nor am I a mindless defender of our entire history. (My wife’s part Cherokee – she might have a few words to offer, too.)
motivemagus,Yes! I thought you might bring up a Native American tribe. Bully for you and predictable. I did not claim your history lesson was wrong. I said I don’t need the lesson and I will now elaborate more specifically and say that I don’t need a history lesson from you. The history of how the U.S. acquired the southwestern states is simply irrelevant except in some alternate universe. Are we supposed to feel guilty and cut the Mexicans some slack? Are we supposed to give it all back to Mexico? In other words what is your point? If my ancestors were bamboozled out of Manhattan for a few beads does that justify me robbing a jewelry store?
As for my claims of Mexican troops crossing the border I said to do your own research. Are you just lazy or do you not understand the concept? Personally I heard the stories and saw the videos on both my local channels and on CNN. There are hundreds of on-line hits for Mexican incursions.
Lots of people claim that they support enforcing immigration laws…just not the ones we have on the books. Put Obama right there at the top of that list. The laws are too racist or too Gestapo or too immoral and on and on. You denigrated the quota system and I responded generically with the term “you”. The term in this case would apply to those breaking immigration law and those that enable them. “You” would also refer to those charged with enforcing immigration laws. People seem to believe that if they don’t like a law they can just ignore it. I don’t know if this applies to “you” personally or not.
Wow, 350 years…dude! That pretty well makes you a charter member. Should I ask which side your family fought on in the Revolutionary War? Oh, let’s not. It always helps if you actually understand what you read (may help in your history endeavors as well). I made no statement as to your lack of allegiance to the U.S. and you are simply wasting time here. I said I could not convince people with more allegiance to Mexico than to the U.S. and if the shoe fits that is something that only you know. There are millions in this country now with no allegiance to the U.S. and we can start with a guy named Shazad.
I believe that legal citizens should have the right not to be harassed by their government. If you can’t agree with that, then we’re done. That is my one and only criticism of the Arizona law. I’ll just ignore the rest of your snide comments.
(Except one: we were on the right side.)
motivemagus, Pardon me for pointing out the numerous misrepresentations of my comments in a snide way. Yes we certainly can agree that our government should not harass us. Clearly though we do not agree on what constitutes harassment.
No. Instead of engaging with me with facts, you accused me implicitly of having more allegiance to Mexico than America, ignored the one question I asked you (repeatedly), and resorted to ad hominem attacks on my understanding of history, my family’s loyalty to this country, etc.
Bruce is at least countering with his own views from being in the area and he has been honest that he does not seem to mind being put at risk of being harassed as the cost of dealing with illegal immigrants – he seems to accept it as okay whereas I do not.
I agree with your point that we do not agree on what constitutes harassment. To me it is very simple, and I am baffled as to why no one on the libertarian-to-right-wing seems to appreciate that this is exactly the kind of thing they have been frothing at the mouth over for years!
Dtroutma almost 14 years ago
Where is he finding them? Observation, patrol- hokey dokey, but we need to remember they can’t do “law enforcement”. That silly Constitution. Citizens should speak “functional” ENGLISH. Citizens should UNDERSTAND the Constitution and law. To vote, you should pass the naturalization test! Gee- about 3/4 of “natural born” citizens would lose the right to vote.
Illegal IS illegal. But maybe like in the drug trade, we need to go after those at the TOP rather than the “worker bees” (or addicts) at the bottom of the profiteering ladder??
The fence is, for many reasons, about the dumbest, and biggest, waste of money in border history. If you want to get serious, use heat-sensitive targeting of weapons that will shoot humans, but not rabbits, coyotes, jaguars, or wildlife species.
The technology is there (okay we can’t plug an oil well, sooo there is some question, BUT) leaving dead bodies along the border WILL feed wildlife, and “send a message”- especially if the wildlife are stoned out of their gourds!!
Motivemagus almost 14 years ago
Interesting point, dtroutma. Regularly pollsters survey people if they would accept the Bill of Rights – not saying that this is what it is, of course – and some massive majority of Americans say they would not. If we gave the citizenship tests on the Bill of Rights to “natural-born” Americans, wonder how they would score? And wouldn’t it be nice if they knew what they were, instead of listening to idiotic distortions thereof for political or advocacy purposes? Not that I am advocating that citizenship be conditional on a test – WAY too much potential for abuse there…
mrdoody almost 14 years ago
This is going to happen only in someone’s dream. The last time (Bush years) that the guard went to the border, the Mexican military sent them running. Calderon has already called Obama to threaten him and you won’t see a repeat of the last time. You won’t see a Guardsman within 10 miles of the border. This is all just political cover while Obama challenges the Arizona law in court. Remember this: 1.America already has a humane and reasonable immigration policy. 2. America has laws to deal with companies that hire illegal immigrants and it is never enforced because Obama does not allow work site raids. Everyone since 1986 has had their own excuse for not enforcing the federal law. 3. America has laws to deal with illegal immigrants that have never been enforced and no matter how many new laws are passed they too will never be enforced. Mexicans and for that matter the rest of the world will never understand a limit or a legal process for immigration ever. Obama’s reform will serve only to increase the number of legal immigrants and guest workers without ever reducing illegal immigration. Without serious enforcement of immigration laws and perhaps even a change to the 14th Amendment no increases in immigration quotas will ever reduce illegal immigration until the border is open. Get used to it because it won’t change. Mexico already controls Texas, New Mexico, and California in their entirety and the national government through the Hispanic caucus and the black caucus, the churches, and most of the media such as CNN. My advice to all of you is to learn Spanish or perish.
Motivemagus almost 14 years ago
mrdoody, um, are you suggesting Obama has not allowed work site raids since 1986? And would you mind explaining just where Obama said such a thing? And I should think you could enforce proper laws without “work site raids,” which sound rather Gestapo-like, don’t you think? And how on Earth could (or would) the Mexican military send the guard running from behind our own border? What, were they invading us? What event is this? Incidentally, Bush initiated a lot of the guest worker policy, many speculating because he wanted cheap nonunion labor available. And he was a Texas Republican! (Or claimed to be, considering he was born and mostly raised in New England.) And if you read any history, you will know that (1) our immigration policy has mostly been biased and racist (e.g., the Eastern European Jews escaping Hitler who were turned away during WWII because of quotas based on false assumptions about “racial” intelligence as misguided as anything the Nazis proposed), and (2) Texas, New Mexico, Arizona (you missed Arizona), and California WERE Mexico until we (and James K. Polk) started a war basically to steal them and defend Texans’ rights to own slaves. Mexico forbade slavery, you see. Mexico was forced to sell that territory to us as a result of the Mexican-American War. Technically, most of the original settlers were originally Mexicans! So what’s different? Incidentally, I do speak Spanish. Americans are shamefully inept at speaking other languages – and their own, for that matter. Learning other languages teaches you a lot, and I wish I were better at it.
mrdoody almost 14 years ago
Motivemagus, I don’t require a history lesson although I might suggest that you get yours from some place other than La Raza. I guess that I am supposed to respond with that bleeep about the Native Americans here before the Mexicans but I would prefer to talk about this universe and not the alternate universe that you seem to dwell on. You may want to read number two again since I specifically stated that everyone had their own excuses for not enforcing the immigration laws. As for the immigration quotas I suppose it is OK to just ignore them if they don’t suit you. I was not referring to the demographic makeup of the states and my exclusion of Arizona was intentional. Arizona still has the political will to pass laws for the protection of their citizens while the other states I mentioned do not. Yes indeed Bush was very pro-illegal. Like all politicians in most of Texas you have to be pro-illegal or you don’t win races. I cannot makeup for your appalling lack of knowledge on current events but I will press a few points. Worksite raids may or may not be Gestapo like; after all a diamond is just a rock right? Such raids target the employers specifically but the pro-illegal crowd gets upset because the illegal workers are also arrested and those with felonies are deported. What an awful thing to deport criminals. Admittedly the Mexican incursions across the border seldom make national news. Hell it is hard to get that news locally in Texas and I cannot speak for all of the states but the Mexican army has little respect for the border. Notably during the last Guard deployment heavily armed Mexican troops with guns drawn confronted a Guard unit on the American side of the border. Our guard troops were under specific orders to not shoot and were forced to retreat for their own safety. This did make national news and Mexico claimed that they were just drug smugglers dressed as army. Of course it is well known that the army routinely escorts drugs across the border in Texas and if you wish to characterize that as an invasion I would not argue. In any case you can expect the same this go-around. If the Guard gets too close to the border they will be challenged. As for the accuracy of any of this I suggest you do your own research. The exercise will do you good. My comments are food for thought and not intended to be Wikipedia entry. I may make an American think but I certainly to do not hope to change the mind of someone with more allegiance to Mexico than to America.
Motivemagus almost 14 years ago
mrdoody, I read scores of history books a year, thanks, none from La Raza. We took those states from Mexico and at the time were proud to do it. You can find it in grade school textbooks, for Pete’s sake (maybe not in Texas, now…). You are apparently inventing history, not me. You made the outrageous statement that Mexican troops have invaded the US - I’d like a reference, please. I said NOTHING about ignoring the immigration laws, and indeed have said repeatedly on this list that they should be enforced. I am questioning the methods being used - and the way Arizona has chosen to do so. And you can take a long hike off a short pier if you think I have “more allegiance to Mexico than to America.” My family’s been here for more than 350 years, and fought in the Revolutionary War, dude. I support America all over the world – but I’m not an ignoramus about this country, nor am I a mindless defender of our entire history. (My wife’s part Cherokee – she might have a few words to offer, too.)
Michigander almost 14 years ago
I see two escape routes for the foreigners.
mrdoody almost 14 years ago
motivemagus,Yes! I thought you might bring up a Native American tribe. Bully for you and predictable. I did not claim your history lesson was wrong. I said I don’t need the lesson and I will now elaborate more specifically and say that I don’t need a history lesson from you. The history of how the U.S. acquired the southwestern states is simply irrelevant except in some alternate universe. Are we supposed to feel guilty and cut the Mexicans some slack? Are we supposed to give it all back to Mexico? In other words what is your point? If my ancestors were bamboozled out of Manhattan for a few beads does that justify me robbing a jewelry store? As for my claims of Mexican troops crossing the border I said to do your own research. Are you just lazy or do you not understand the concept? Personally I heard the stories and saw the videos on both my local channels and on CNN. There are hundreds of on-line hits for Mexican incursions. Lots of people claim that they support enforcing immigration laws…just not the ones we have on the books. Put Obama right there at the top of that list. The laws are too racist or too Gestapo or too immoral and on and on. You denigrated the quota system and I responded generically with the term “you”. The term in this case would apply to those breaking immigration law and those that enable them. “You” would also refer to those charged with enforcing immigration laws. People seem to believe that if they don’t like a law they can just ignore it. I don’t know if this applies to “you” personally or not. Wow, 350 years…dude! That pretty well makes you a charter member. Should I ask which side your family fought on in the Revolutionary War? Oh, let’s not. It always helps if you actually understand what you read (may help in your history endeavors as well). I made no statement as to your lack of allegiance to the U.S. and you are simply wasting time here. I said I could not convince people with more allegiance to Mexico than to the U.S. and if the shoe fits that is something that only you know. There are millions in this country now with no allegiance to the U.S. and we can start with a guy named Shazad.
Motivemagus almost 14 years ago
I believe that legal citizens should have the right not to be harassed by their government. If you can’t agree with that, then we’re done. That is my one and only criticism of the Arizona law. I’ll just ignore the rest of your snide comments. (Except one: we were on the right side.)
trimguy almost 14 years ago
Let’s use all the illegals as a containment boom ;)
mrdoody almost 14 years ago
motivemagus, Pardon me for pointing out the numerous misrepresentations of my comments in a snide way. Yes we certainly can agree that our government should not harass us. Clearly though we do not agree on what constitutes harassment.
Motivemagus almost 14 years ago
No. Instead of engaging with me with facts, you accused me implicitly of having more allegiance to Mexico than America, ignored the one question I asked you (repeatedly), and resorted to ad hominem attacks on my understanding of history, my family’s loyalty to this country, etc. Bruce is at least countering with his own views from being in the area and he has been honest that he does not seem to mind being put at risk of being harassed as the cost of dealing with illegal immigrants – he seems to accept it as okay whereas I do not. I agree with your point that we do not agree on what constitutes harassment. To me it is very simple, and I am baffled as to why no one on the libertarian-to-right-wing seems to appreciate that this is exactly the kind of thing they have been frothing at the mouth over for years!