So if you’re Republican then Mexico should be your country of choice – they allow their police to do the things you want them to do – or does he mean that we should adopt the Mexican style of justice that seems to have worked so well for them?
Bruce, you’re fighting a losing battle trying to explain this to people who let other people do their thinking for them. If the media says it (or even better, that bastion of truth and justice, Barack Obama) then that’s the way the worm turns.
But I do admire your effort to encourage reading and critical thinking!
SECTION B:
In the original law, Section B granted police officers the power to check immigration status for anyone in any situation that can be termed “Lawful Contact”. And “Lawful Contact” is any interaction a police officer has with anyone for any reason, so long as the officer himself is not committing a crime.
The Amendment has limited that power to situations of “lawful stop, detention, or arrest”.
It also appends this language to the section: “A law enforcement official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state may not consider race, color or national origin in implementing the requirements of this subsection except to the extent permitted by the United States or Arizona Constitution.”
It further goes on to specify a list of things that will, by law, provide proof of legal residency. The list includes AZ driver’s license or non-operation state ID, Native American Tribal ID, and a complex edge case for people who are in the country legally, but awaiting their actual documentation, letting them use other forms of ID.
A “stop” is any time the police order you to remain where you are, for whatever reason. This includes traffic stops, but also an officer simply stopping you on the street because you match the description of a fugitive they’re looking for. I have no objection to the police ascertaining identity as part of a traffic stop; you are legally required to carry a driver’s license while driving and not doing so is a crime in itself. And, under the amended law, a driver’s license is automatic proof of legal residency.
The site source is suspect, but provided this is accurate, the improvements are a step in the right direction.
http://shanex.livejournal.com/23826.html
The amendment does at least show somebody is still aware the Constitution, and body of law, still exists- which IS a major change from the original law. A very few words in law can make a huge difference, often just ONE word can do it.
Since there is no way to identify an illegal alien without asking for documentation, the law is necessary.
For many reasons, the illegals must be deported and anyone who says that they should stay is either an illegal, or one who believes that it’s OK to break the law.
Why do you always compare America to third world countries to make it look goog? It’s like me saying I’m good at math because I’m better than my 5 year old nephew!
I remain unconvinced that this new law, even with the recent change to the wording of the bill, targets illegals without targeting hispanics exclusively, legal or not. I do not defend illegals in any way, and the problem I see throughout the discussions on this topic is that there does not seem to be a concensus on what the law regarding illegals should be. In the end it’s all linked to the economy and unemployment. If unemployment weren’t an issue in AZ, then there would be no law. If the law were to address the crime rate that is blamed on illegals, then the law is unnecessary because anyone caught commiting a crime and is found to be here illegally is deported, period. No need to bring up federal law or any new law. SB 1070 does not target criminals.
If the effect that illegals have on benefiting from public funds were better understood, then this would also be a non-issue. Most illegal aliens who work here do pay taxes because any non-agricultural employer with half a brain will require some form of social security card, knowing full well that it is forged (“but hey, I asked and they provided one”). This is the money that is collected and does benefit the state and its citizens. As for hospitals, there is a cost being passed on to insured citizens, though oftentimes the blame can be reassigned to the employers that put these individuals at risk. I am, however, recognizing that tax and insurance dollars are unfairly being swallowed to serve those here illegally, and is a problem, again, not specifically addressed by this bill. I wish I saw a little more recognition that the issues discussed on this site are not as black and white as the comments posted here generally reflect. That is all.
Here’s an idea for an informal public poll for the Arizona law: get as much publicity ENCOURAGING people to buy things from Arizona based on their opinion of the law as the people calling for a boycott of Arizona products are getting, then see how sales of these products do. But this will only work accurately if the mainstream media will tell the truth about what the law actually says.
Stolen SSI ID numbers are compensable to a Mexican citizen working here illegally. A hardly ever mentioned piece of legislation passed during the Bush administration. If you stole someone else’s SSI number and worked under it for a certain number of quarters you can have your check sent to you in Mexico. The media didn’t want to scare us with this information so they just sort of shoved it under the wool carpeting.
@vatonaught - where do you come up with this stuff? Sent to Mexico…what a laugh
@petergt - fair enough. Sounds to me like something should be done to crack down on these types of crime, whether the perps are white, brown, or yellow… still has nothing to do with the AZ law
My brother-in-law (quite white) tried to commit suicide by fire (yes, he’s stupid too) and lost one leg below the knee- he’s never worked a day since, and keeps whining that SSI should give him a better prosthesis(as one example). I pointed out my friends who are DOUBLE amputees and in one case, a TRIPLE amputee from ‘Nam, who have never been without a job in their lives. (Other than during recovery and therapy.)
My response to him is “Get off your A**, get a job, and buy your own.) He’s never made ANY effort to get off SSI support.
I see folks in my agricultural community all the time that everyone ” reasonably suspects” are not citizens, or here legally, working the fields picking weeds and doing jobs those “lines of folks” will NOT stoop (no pun intended) to do. My own brother refused to go back to work as an engineer ($100K + per year) after recovering from his heart attack, because the job offered only paid 2/3 of what he was making before. SSI cut him off, and he sued- because he was an ULTRA-right winger, who wanted “government” off his back.
“Dirty Jobs” can include office work for some folks.
In reality few people admit that yes! there are jobs no one wants, just think, and do you homework.
I. Here in California I haven’t seen many African-Americans or Asian people working in car washes, selling flowers/oranges at the freeways exits etc.
2 There are many door to door flier delivery people that get paid pennies for doing that and guess what? same as #1
3 And last, The perennial question, regarding the use of fake id’s, And we all know that taxes are retained under those fake id’s and sent to the government and NOT ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE CLAIM BACK TAX REFUNDS! Therefore where does all that $$ goes? now there is a question I will like to see answered and we hear of ‘Million and millions of illegals”? Hmmmmm! makes you wonder. I have seen those stacks of check stubs with my own eyes.”
Regarding points 1 & 2 - what you are really saying is there are jobs for which greedy employers don’t want to hire someone they have to pay at least minimum wage. One of the strongest arguments for eliminating illegal immigration is to not have millions of unprotected people living in the shadows, being paid a pittance and subjected to the horrible living conditions that they must endure because of that pay.
I have long been an advocate of strong sanctions against those who willfully hire undocumented people - up to and including confiscation/receivership of property and/or corporate assets and jail time for those doing the hiring.
Point 3 brings up an interesting topic. For taxes to be withheld the employer must report a valid SSN. You would change your tune quickly if you, like a family friend I know, were to be audited because the income you reported on you tax return was about 30K short of the income reported by various employers to social security - that’s right, someone (or a few someones) was using a “fake” id and HIS SSN to get illegal employment. You won’t be surprised to find the IRS has very little sympathy. He was finally cleared, but he had to pay a lawyer to get it fixed.
Granted, they usually use SSN’s of deceased persons which work fine if the relatives of the deceased haven’t notified SSA of the death.
Your tax argument is a strong one for eliminating the shadow world and making sure all those working in the USA are documented. They should be able to get back that which they deserve.
kennethcwarren64 almost 14 years ago
So if you’re Republican then Mexico should be your country of choice – they allow their police to do the things you want them to do – or does he mean that we should adopt the Mexican style of justice that seems to have worked so well for them?
comYics almost 14 years ago
who cares. they’ve already thrown that usa away.
zombees. ahh, resources, arhhh…
mrdoody almost 14 years ago
The truth hurts…
WarBush almost 14 years ago
This is a trick question. The correct answer is both. It all depends on your skin color.
MILDOG172 almost 14 years ago
Do what you must to protect the legal citizens.
lonecat almost 14 years ago
Does this cartoon include a racial profile?
WarBush almost 14 years ago
^Not yet they don’t.
oneoldhat almost 14 years ago
ariz is joining the rest of civilized world – in U K i had to show passport to rent a room
bavolet almost 14 years ago
Bruce, you’re fighting a losing battle trying to explain this to people who let other people do their thinking for them. If the media says it (or even better, that bastion of truth and justice, Barack Obama) then that’s the way the worm turns.
But I do admire your effort to encourage reading and critical thinking!
Jaedabee Premium Member almost 14 years ago
Amendments to the Arizona SB 1070:
SECTION B: In the original law, Section B granted police officers the power to check immigration status for anyone in any situation that can be termed “Lawful Contact”. And “Lawful Contact” is any interaction a police officer has with anyone for any reason, so long as the officer himself is not committing a crime.
The Amendment has limited that power to situations of “lawful stop, detention, or arrest”.
It also appends this language to the section: “A law enforcement official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state may not consider race, color or national origin in implementing the requirements of this subsection except to the extent permitted by the United States or Arizona Constitution.”
It further goes on to specify a list of things that will, by law, provide proof of legal residency. The list includes AZ driver’s license or non-operation state ID, Native American Tribal ID, and a complex edge case for people who are in the country legally, but awaiting their actual documentation, letting them use other forms of ID.
A “stop” is any time the police order you to remain where you are, for whatever reason. This includes traffic stops, but also an officer simply stopping you on the street because you match the description of a fugitive they’re looking for. I have no objection to the police ascertaining identity as part of a traffic stop; you are legally required to carry a driver’s license while driving and not doing so is a crime in itself. And, under the amended law, a driver’s license is automatic proof of legal residency.
The site source is suspect, but provided this is accurate, the improvements are a step in the right direction. http://shanex.livejournal.com/23826.html
Dtroutma almost 14 years ago
The amendment does at least show somebody is still aware the Constitution, and body of law, still exists- which IS a major change from the original law. A very few words in law can make a huge difference, often just ONE word can do it.
Will80 almost 14 years ago
Since there is no way to identify an illegal alien without asking for documentation, the law is necessary.
For many reasons, the illegals must be deported and anyone who says that they should stay is either an illegal, or one who believes that it’s OK to break the law.
CorosiveFrog Premium Member almost 14 years ago
Shouldn’t yuo guys be better than Mexico?
Why do you always compare America to third world countries to make it look goog? It’s like me saying I’m good at math because I’m better than my 5 year old nephew!
leerab78 almost 14 years ago
I remain unconvinced that this new law, even with the recent change to the wording of the bill, targets illegals without targeting hispanics exclusively, legal or not. I do not defend illegals in any way, and the problem I see throughout the discussions on this topic is that there does not seem to be a concensus on what the law regarding illegals should be. In the end it’s all linked to the economy and unemployment. If unemployment weren’t an issue in AZ, then there would be no law. If the law were to address the crime rate that is blamed on illegals, then the law is unnecessary because anyone caught commiting a crime and is found to be here illegally is deported, period. No need to bring up federal law or any new law. SB 1070 does not target criminals.
If the effect that illegals have on benefiting from public funds were better understood, then this would also be a non-issue. Most illegal aliens who work here do pay taxes because any non-agricultural employer with half a brain will require some form of social security card, knowing full well that it is forged (“but hey, I asked and they provided one”). This is the money that is collected and does benefit the state and its citizens. As for hospitals, there is a cost being passed on to insured citizens, though oftentimes the blame can be reassigned to the employers that put these individuals at risk. I am, however, recognizing that tax and insurance dollars are unfairly being swallowed to serve those here illegally, and is a problem, again, not specifically addressed by this bill. I wish I saw a little more recognition that the issues discussed on this site are not as black and white as the comments posted here generally reflect. That is all.
petergrt almost 14 years ago
LA City Council, which is presiding over an essentially bankrupt city, has just voted to boycott Arizona based businesses.
The political slime compared the AZ to Apartheid South Africa, Nazi Germany, and ottered other like intellectual poop … .
Jaedabee Premium Member almost 14 years ago
^ Sounds like Death Panels. Oh irony.
zekedog55 almost 14 years ago
So why does “Mr. Conservative all I draw is the Truth” Ramirez portray the Mexican police officer as morbidly obese?
What a prejudiced, small minded person he is.
Dtroutma almost 14 years ago
The labor pool in Scottsdale will disappear. Who will groom those horses for instance?
Dutchboy1 almost 14 years ago
Here’s an idea for an informal public poll for the Arizona law: get as much publicity ENCOURAGING people to buy things from Arizona based on their opinion of the law as the people calling for a boycott of Arizona products are getting, then see how sales of these products do. But this will only work accurately if the mainstream media will tell the truth about what the law actually says.
JoeRaisin almost 14 years ago
“dtroutma said,
The labor pool in Scottsdale will disappear. Who will groom those horses for instance?”
These days a job is a job and there’s plenty of people who want to work.
http://www.azfamily.com/news/Hundreds-seek-to-fill-vacant-positions-at-Pros-Ranch-Market-91880224.html
Thus putting to rest the false argument of “jobs Americans won’t do.”
lewisbower almost 14 years ago
Remember being a longhair and being stopped to see your draft card? Nothing illegal or racist. Perhaps we should have claimed “Gender Discrimination”
vatonaught almost 14 years ago
Stolen SSI ID numbers are compensable to a Mexican citizen working here illegally. A hardly ever mentioned piece of legislation passed during the Bush administration. If you stole someone else’s SSI number and worked under it for a certain number of quarters you can have your check sent to you in Mexico. The media didn’t want to scare us with this information so they just sort of shoved it under the wool carpeting.
petergrt almost 14 years ago
Most of the ‘illegal alien’ economy is in fact underground, cash only.
Many parts of LA have become Tijuana-like. The merchants collect the sales taxes, but very little of it gets passed on …
vatonaught almost 14 years ago
Gee what other ID could an undocumented worker have but a fake ID. If it ain’t yours it must be fake…see?.
leerab78 almost 14 years ago
@vatonaught - where do you come up with this stuff? Sent to Mexico…what a laugh
@petergt - fair enough. Sounds to me like something should be done to crack down on these types of crime, whether the perps are white, brown, or yellow… still has nothing to do with the AZ law
Dtroutma almost 14 years ago
My brother-in-law (quite white) tried to commit suicide by fire (yes, he’s stupid too) and lost one leg below the knee- he’s never worked a day since, and keeps whining that SSI should give him a better prosthesis(as one example). I pointed out my friends who are DOUBLE amputees and in one case, a TRIPLE amputee from ‘Nam, who have never been without a job in their lives. (Other than during recovery and therapy.)
My response to him is “Get off your A**, get a job, and buy your own.) He’s never made ANY effort to get off SSI support.
I see folks in my agricultural community all the time that everyone ” reasonably suspects” are not citizens, or here legally, working the fields picking weeds and doing jobs those “lines of folks” will NOT stoop (no pun intended) to do. My own brother refused to go back to work as an engineer ($100K + per year) after recovering from his heart attack, because the job offered only paid 2/3 of what he was making before. SSI cut him off, and he sued- because he was an ULTRA-right winger, who wanted “government” off his back.
“Dirty Jobs” can include office work for some folks.
JoeRaisin almost 14 years ago
Vicente Martinez said,
In reality few people admit that yes! there are jobs no one wants, just think, and do you homework.
I. Here in California I haven’t seen many African-Americans or Asian people working in car washes, selling flowers/oranges at the freeways exits etc.
2 There are many door to door flier delivery people that get paid pennies for doing that and guess what? same as #1
3 And last, The perennial question, regarding the use of fake id’s, And we all know that taxes are retained under those fake id’s and sent to the government and NOT ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE CLAIM BACK TAX REFUNDS! Therefore where does all that $$ goes? now there is a question I will like to see answered and we hear of ‘Million and millions of illegals”? Hmmmmm! makes you wonder. I have seen those stacks of check stubs with my own eyes.”
Regarding points 1 & 2 - what you are really saying is there are jobs for which greedy employers don’t want to hire someone they have to pay at least minimum wage. One of the strongest arguments for eliminating illegal immigration is to not have millions of unprotected people living in the shadows, being paid a pittance and subjected to the horrible living conditions that they must endure because of that pay.
I have long been an advocate of strong sanctions against those who willfully hire undocumented people - up to and including confiscation/receivership of property and/or corporate assets and jail time for those doing the hiring.
Point 3 brings up an interesting topic. For taxes to be withheld the employer must report a valid SSN. You would change your tune quickly if you, like a family friend I know, were to be audited because the income you reported on you tax return was about 30K short of the income reported by various employers to social security - that’s right, someone (or a few someones) was using a “fake” id and HIS SSN to get illegal employment. You won’t be surprised to find the IRS has very little sympathy. He was finally cleared, but he had to pay a lawyer to get it fixed.
Granted, they usually use SSN’s of deceased persons which work fine if the relatives of the deceased haven’t notified SSA of the death.
Your tax argument is a strong one for eliminating the shadow world and making sure all those working in the USA are documented. They should be able to get back that which they deserve.