Well, that’s…incredibly culturally insensitive. Bordering on straight up offensive. Really, it’s just a demonstration of ignorance about the whole point of Día de los Muertos. I would challenge you to take a holiday that is particularly precious to you and/or your family, and aim the same lens at it as you just did against the Day of the Dead.
You may or may not be interested in this primer on the history, meanings, and rituals of the day. In fact, the portrayals that Lalo is putting in his strips this week are completely in line with the spirit of the day.
Dia de los Muertos is not just a “dress up” holiday you are confusing it with American Halloween, as many do. Most cartoonists do not delve deeply into the religious aspects of any holiday; the fancy dress and make-up that Lalo showcases in his comics are a small part of Dia de los Muertos just as pine trees and Santa Claus are a small part of Christmas; they are fun activities but not the purpose for the celebration. To mock any cultures religious beliefs with offensive comparisons like the ones you give is pretty much the definition of racism. Yup, I went there – time for you to play the “reverse-racist card” and let us all know how open-minded you are because you have a non-Caucasian friend who thinks exactly the way you do.
Like it or not, the “small part” of this celebration is what shows up in the media, probably because it is so bizarre.
Again, aim that lens at some holiday or set of rituals that you and/or your family find valuable, and think about how bizarre that could be seen from another cultural perspective.
And you’ve completely neglected other parts of that source (Wikipedia) I gave you. You know, the parts where “Celebrations can take a humorous tone, as celebrants remember funny events and anecdotes about the departed.” Hmm…thinking happy thoughts about the departed. Or the parts where there are elaborate altars created (and these often include little skeleton sculptures) to encourage the souls of the departed to come visit.
But rather than look sympathetically at an important day in the lives of many, and a set of rituals that isn’t hurting folks—rather than maybe even try to do a bit more to understand it, you invoke human sacrifice. You may not consider yourself racist indie, but your words here today most definitely are. For shame.
@agrestic, from yesterday: “Yeah, that’s sort of what I figured. Though I’d say divisiveness is in the eye of the beholder.” As I hit the submit yesterday I considered that. One thing that has leaped out as I read comments from devoted Lefties is their personal and group attacks/insults. Again, that’s just my take on Lefties as a group. Mean while, back to the coffee cup…
They aren’t celebrating death. They’re celebrating their loved ones who have passed on.
superstition couched as religious beliefs
And who are you to distinguish one from the other? Really, that’s terribly presumptuous. Even the fact that you would make such a distinction, and do it in the way you have, shows a fundamental disrespect for enormous swathes of human beings and their cultures. Here’s a brief article (you can view the PDF from there for free) that may help you understand this point a little better.
As far as calling something racism, I’m very careful to use that word only when it’s supremely justified, as it is with what you’ve written today. For instance, if you’re going to equate people creating fun little skeleton sculptures and the like with human sacrifice, why bring up Mayans and Aztecs? Why not bring up Greeks, Romans, Chinese, Tibetans, Celts, Turkmen, Hawaiians, or the like?
The fact is, you don’t understand the tradition, so you’ve decided to attack it. You have your own narrow sense of what a particular imagery means, and assume that’s what it must mean for everyone celebrating (yes, celebrating) the Day of the Dead. A day that is linked in the Christian liturgical calendar to All Saint’s Day and All Soul’s Day, both of which are meant to celebrate (yes, that word again) those who have gone before. These days are not a time of mourning. They are a time of remembrance and joy that these people were part of people’s lives, and a hope that they are getting on well in the afterlife.
You know what skeletons, especially skulls, signified for quite a long time in European art? The Resurrection. But unless you were to take the time to learn that, you (yes, you personally, indie) would simply think it was some morbid death thing.
Nobody’s asking you to embrace these rituals. But the fact that you see fit to, unbidden, attack and belittle such an important day for millions of people speaks very ill of you indeed.
If you’re really that worried about a violent world (one that is actually getting proportionately less violent if you take the long view—but any violence is too much), why take it out on a day where people remember their loved ones with fondness and happiness? Why not, say, start campaigning against a burgeoning arms industry, or the US’s wanton bombing of people in West and Central Asia, or xenophobia, or misogyny, or poverty, or climate change? Why not, in other words, start thinking about the causes of violence, rather than attack a cultural expression you obviously don’t understand?
And there’s where you are dead wrong. It’s obviously not the case for everyone, but you refuse to open your eyes to it. Anything that doesn’t neatly line up with your view of how the world should be is, based on what you’ve said today, offensive to you and should be expunged.
The fact that you are pronouncing what is “civilized” or not just reemphasizes your general intolerance for difference, as further evidenced by what you’ve said today. And I bet you haven’t bothered reading that linked article.
Now if I’m wrong and you’d like to point out sources that show you are more than talk
What’s your point here? Are you saying you’d like to see my CV of good works? How ‘bout this: you say exactly who you are, where you live, what you do, what your volunteer activities are, and then I’ll do the same. And then you can publicly apologize. Not just to me, but to those you’ve offended with your ugly remarks today.
Which point was that? That you think a widely-celebrated holiday is uncivilized? And what effort was wasted on my part? I called out your words for what they are. My goal today was not to silence you. It was to let you know that you got your point across quite clearly, and that the point is narrow-minded, insensitive, and intolerant.
By the way, what threats have I ever made? The fact that you’d even think anyone on here has made any threats against one another again says a whole lot more about you than about me or any other poster. (In fact, the closest I can think of threats here is a certain someone making noises about how certain posts were, in that certain someone’s mind, violations of the TOS.)
And you still probably haven’t read that article I posted a link to. And you don’t seem to want to even talk about that deal I mentioned.
Templo S.U.D. over 9 years ago
Quiero un taco.
agrestic over 9 years ago
How does one say “om nom nom nom nom” in Spanish, I wonder?
agrestic over 9 years ago
Well, that’s…incredibly culturally insensitive. Bordering on straight up offensive. Really, it’s just a demonstration of ignorance about the whole point of Día de los Muertos. I would challenge you to take a holiday that is particularly precious to you and/or your family, and aim the same lens at it as you just did against the Day of the Dead.
You may or may not be interested in this primer on the history, meanings, and rituals of the day. In fact, the portrayals that Lalo is putting in his strips this week are completely in line with the spirit of the day.
57-Don over 9 years ago
Dia de los Muertos is not just a “dress up” holiday you are confusing it with American Halloween, as many do. Most cartoonists do not delve deeply into the religious aspects of any holiday; the fancy dress and make-up that Lalo showcases in his comics are a small part of Dia de los Muertos just as pine trees and Santa Claus are a small part of Christmas; they are fun activities but not the purpose for the celebration. To mock any cultures religious beliefs with offensive comparisons like the ones you give is pretty much the definition of racism. Yup, I went there – time for you to play the “reverse-racist card” and let us all know how open-minded you are because you have a non-Caucasian friend who thinks exactly the way you do.
57-Don over 9 years ago
You do realize that it IS the families of the deceased who are dressing up to honor and remember their loved ones don’t you?
agrestic over 9 years ago
Like it or not, the “small part” of this celebration is what shows up in the media, probably because it is so bizarre.
Again, aim that lens at some holiday or set of rituals that you and/or your family find valuable, and think about how bizarre that could be seen from another cultural perspective.
And you’ve completely neglected other parts of that source (Wikipedia) I gave you. You know, the parts where “Celebrations can take a humorous tone, as celebrants remember funny events and anecdotes about the departed.” Hmm…thinking happy thoughts about the departed. Or the parts where there are elaborate altars created (and these often include little skeleton sculptures) to encourage the souls of the departed to come visit.
But rather than look sympathetically at an important day in the lives of many, and a set of rituals that isn’t hurting folks—rather than maybe even try to do a bit more to understand it, you invoke human sacrifice. You may not consider yourself racist indie, but your words here today most definitely are. For shame.
dzw3030 over 9 years ago
@agrestic, from yesterday: “Yeah, that’s sort of what I figured. Though I’d say divisiveness is in the eye of the beholder.” As I hit the submit yesterday I considered that. One thing that has leaped out as I read comments from devoted Lefties is their personal and group attacks/insults. Again, that’s just my take on Lefties as a group. Mean while, back to the coffee cup…
agrestic over 9 years ago
Death apparently is humorous.
They aren’t celebrating death. They’re celebrating their loved ones who have passed on.
superstition couched as religious beliefs
And who are you to distinguish one from the other? Really, that’s terribly presumptuous. Even the fact that you would make such a distinction, and do it in the way you have, shows a fundamental disrespect for enormous swathes of human beings and their cultures. Here’s a brief article (you can view the PDF from there for free) that may help you understand this point a little better.
As far as calling something racism, I’m very careful to use that word only when it’s supremely justified, as it is with what you’ve written today. For instance, if you’re going to equate people creating fun little skeleton sculptures and the like with human sacrifice, why bring up Mayans and Aztecs? Why not bring up Greeks, Romans, Chinese, Tibetans, Celts, Turkmen, Hawaiians, or the like?
The fact is, you don’t understand the tradition, so you’ve decided to attack it. You have your own narrow sense of what a particular imagery means, and assume that’s what it must mean for everyone celebrating (yes, celebrating) the Day of the Dead. A day that is linked in the Christian liturgical calendar to All Saint’s Day and All Soul’s Day, both of which are meant to celebrate (yes, that word again) those who have gone before. These days are not a time of mourning. They are a time of remembrance and joy that these people were part of people’s lives, and a hope that they are getting on well in the afterlife.
You know what skeletons, especially skulls, signified for quite a long time in European art? The Resurrection. But unless you were to take the time to learn that, you (yes, you personally, indie) would simply think it was some morbid death thing.
Nobody’s asking you to embrace these rituals. But the fact that you see fit to, unbidden, attack and belittle such an important day for millions of people speaks very ill of you indeed.
If you’re really that worried about a violent world (one that is actually getting proportionately less violent if you take the long view—but any violence is too much), why take it out on a day where people remember their loved ones with fondness and happiness? Why not, say, start campaigning against a burgeoning arms industry, or the US’s wanton bombing of people in West and Central Asia, or xenophobia, or misogyny, or poverty, or climate change? Why not, in other words, start thinking about the causes of violence, rather than attack a cultural expression you obviously don’t understand?
agrestic over 9 years ago
Any other use IS a morbid death thing.
And there’s where you are dead wrong. It’s obviously not the case for everyone, but you refuse to open your eyes to it. Anything that doesn’t neatly line up with your view of how the world should be is, based on what you’ve said today, offensive to you and should be expunged.
The fact that you are pronouncing what is “civilized” or not just reemphasizes your general intolerance for difference, as further evidenced by what you’ve said today. And I bet you haven’t bothered reading that linked article.
Now if I’m wrong and you’d like to point out sources that show you are more than talk
What’s your point here? Are you saying you’d like to see my CV of good works? How ‘bout this: you say exactly who you are, where you live, what you do, what your volunteer activities are, and then I’ll do the same. And then you can publicly apologize. Not just to me, but to those you’ve offended with your ugly remarks today.
agrestic over 9 years ago
I STILL got my point across.
Which point was that? That you think a widely-celebrated holiday is uncivilized? And what effort was wasted on my part? I called out your words for what they are. My goal today was not to silence you. It was to let you know that you got your point across quite clearly, and that the point is narrow-minded, insensitive, and intolerant.
By the way, what threats have I ever made? The fact that you’d even think anyone on here has made any threats against one another again says a whole lot more about you than about me or any other poster. (In fact, the closest I can think of threats here is a certain someone making noises about how certain posts were, in that certain someone’s mind, violations of the TOS.)
And you still probably haven’t read that article I posted a link to. And you don’t seem to want to even talk about that deal I mentioned.
ORMouseworks over 9 years ago
indie, even I think you have gone too far…