Yeah Jen, the other side is saying, “Pay our medical bills for us with your tax dollars because the only work I did was under the table. I would have paid taxes, medical insurance and Social Security but I have to drive a new car every year. Insurance costs ten grand, but my car cost thirty grand. What’s more important?”
SLOWPOKE shows itself, again, as one of the more intelligent cartoons. Seeing it prick the T.P. balloon is pleasure.
The T.P. is the result of a generation of cutting funds to public education. The T.P.-ers are mal-educated pawns of the right-wing media. Almost the entire T.P. platform benefits the extraordinarily wealthy while hurting the T.P.-ers. The wealthy own the media, which encourage the ugly & self-destructive impulses in the T.P. Witness the T.P.’s behavior yesterday.
Marble, thanks for your story. You & your wife have my sympathy. There are thousands of such stories all over the nation as we lose people each year because they lack health insurance.
Lew, just because you are envious of your neighbor is no reason not to support this health-care reform bill.
Harley, your citation is of a regressive blog, not from a piece of reporting. When you have facts, then please share them. Thanks.
That Health care reform in the US is needed should have been clear since the failed “Hillarycare” of 1993. While the Republicans in congress now seem rife with ideas for ‘smaller incremental’ bills, one does wonder what they’ve been doing about this issue for 17 years (other than denying there ARE issues).
While I am leary of any 2700 page law, (that’s the last page count I heard) doing what has been done is not the right answer either.
Single Payer Health Care could have been written on a fraction of pages and reduced paperwork for health care providers.
My hope is that after the dust settles & people see their fears are unfounded that real change(s) can make health care more efficient and reduce costs for all!
BRIAN The last time I looked I did not see TP marches in that media giant, Hollywood. The media is right wing? Go back to your hippie commune and live off the land. You constantly blast our fine fighting men Oh they get health care, education assistance, and a co=signer on their mortgage. What cheap company do you work for?Does it bother me that my neighbor lives foolishly then expects my taxes to pay for his misfortune? You’re bleeep right! You say I have no job. Yeah, it would interfere with my volunteer work. Luckily, I was intelligent enough to work, save, and invest during my working years so I could retire in comfort. Sorry, I forgot you don’t believe in those three right wing principles.
When is the last time any of you have ever seen the Federal Government get involved with ANYTHING without making a mess out of it? The answer is not nor has it ever been this
so-called health care reform. Tort reform just might have helped but there are too many lawyers in government to have any hopes of that. Marble, I sympathize with your plight but is it reasonable to expect me and others like me to pay for your misfortune? Ten years ago I suffered broken bones and loss of work but you know what? That’s life. Bad things happen to everyone now and then but you grit your teeth and go on. You do not expect total strangers to come rushing to your aid and you certainly should not
want that aid to come by way of governmental co-ercion
of you fellow citizens.
The bottom line is that responsibility for ones own actions or circumstances is quickly becoming a thing of the past. What we have now is Obama, Pelosi, and the DMP in charge of our financial future.
God help us all…
I am glad, Lew, that you described your intelligence in the past tense. Knowing you now, I could not agree more. Yes, the mainstream media lean to the right. Are you surprised? I do not know what you mean when you say that I “blast our fine fighting men”. Find some proof of that or stop with the personal attacks. Your overwhelming shame about enlisting in Vietnam reeks in your every attack of me. That is fine, but it shows a lace of substance in your arguments. As for your envy of your neighbor, that, like your self-loathing over your Vietnam mistakes, your living off government largesse & off your wife’s work should not guide your positions on policy.
Look: A nation is judged by how it helps the “least of these”: the disadvantaged, the oppressed, the crippled, the vulnerable, the children. The U.S. is finally back on course to help those people w/in its borders. We took a step last night toward ensuring that fewer would die because of medical costs & that there would be fewer bankruptcies related to medical costs.
I really have trouble understanding why you would be against this. I am all in favor or working, saving, & investing. I practice all three along with my own volunteer work—teaching G.E.D. & doing free tutoring of children, currently. What volunteer work do you do?
Rocky, I agree that the government does not always do the best work, but you can hardly point to the private sector for the best work either. In any area, one will find public & private doing well sometimes & ill sometimes. The question is whether we should ensure that all Americans have quality health care. The answer is Yes, of course. Where is the problem?
See, here’s the difference: I actually do think it’s reasonable to expect me and others like me to help out folks like MARBLE COCK (after all, we are the United States, and we do much better when we come together to support one another in need).
And what’s more, rocky1927, I think you believe it’s reasonable, too. The difference is, you’d probably prefer to help out by means of individual charity, without the government having to become involved. Personally, I just think it’s ridiculous for somebody who needs surgery and has been booted off of his health insurance to have to put together a fund-raiser.
And as for your “bottom line” regarding responsibility, it seems you simply aren’t reading thoroughly. Can you please show me where MARBLE COCK acted irresponsibly? Was it when he worked a high-paying job with good insurance? Was it when he walked on the sidewalk and got hit by a car with a drunk driver at the wheel? Was it when he served in the military or tried to sell his own personal belongings to pay his enormous medical bills?
Or was it simply when you decided that his story didn’t fit into your simplistic narrative about “personal responsibility” and you decided to stop listening?
BRIAN If enemy soldiers were in your town raping and killing your family, would you fight? Well, if it were happening half way around the world would you? Do you pick and choose which wars you think are moral? This is basically what they ask soldiers who want CO status.So are you a Quaker or a warmonger?
You asked who I volunteer for. Read to Succeed. Yes, this right wing Nazi helps the disabled to be able to better his job aspects and quality of life. Whoda thunk you could do this without a single tax dollar?
You ask for proof that you insult the fine young men and women who defend you? Let’s see, did I hear you saying yesterday that they get education, health, and mortgage help? Most major companies offer that. Perhaps the bead stringing co-op you spent most of your time at didn’t.
When Cain asked God, Am I my brother’s keeper”, God wisely didn’t answer. Glad you’re smarter than Him. If you go back to your hippie days you’ll realise the Great Society failed. We created a welfare state the destroyed the American family. The government provide foo, housing and medical. Lets do it again, maybe we’ll get different results.
Personal responsibility. Sell that new car and buy health care. Work a second job and hire a tutor for you offspring. Turn down the thermostat and wear last years sweater. Hold up your head when you walk in the polling place.
Hi Lewreader, thanks for keeping the discussion going here. I know my original question was for rocky1927, but perhaps you could help out. Can you identify where MARBLE COCK acted irresponsibly? Can you ever allow that there are instances in which mere “personal responsibility’ will not be enough to do the trick? That sometimes hard-working people need help to overcome obstacles not of their own making? Obstacles that, no matter how hard they try, they simply can’t overcome on their own?
Precisely, Lew. I object to sending American soldiers around the world to torture, maim, & kill. I am in favor of sending American soldiers—especially as part of U.N. missions—to keep the peace & to prevent others from torturing, maiming, & killing. The U.S. has done that sometimes in my lifetime (see Bosnia & Kosovo), but my country, too often, has worked as an aggressor (see Vietnam, Iraq, Nicaragua) or been utterly ineffectual (see Lebanon) or looked the other way (see Sudan).
I am glad that you work for Read To Succeed. It looks like a fine organization. I find its website giving a Tennessee address. I was under the impression that you lived in Connecticut. Does it have a branch in Connecticut, or do you live in Tennessee? (By the way, it is a non-profit: It receives tax help by being tax-exempt, and by offering tax exemptions for its contributors.) No one denies, by the way, that charities do good work. Charitable work & volunteer work do not absolve a society from ensuring that its citizens’ basic needs are met. When charities fail, the government must step in.
I am glad that you cannot find an instance of my insulting soldiers (who, by the way, do not defend me; currently, American soldiers have served as pawns for the corrupt chickenhawk strategies of our last president; it was partly in respect for American military that I voted for a president whose hands were clean of the warmongering of previous congresses & presidencies; I am sorry that you show so little respect for our forces that you want them to bleed in Iraq so Blackwater can make billions & Big Oil has bigger profits).
As for Cain, we discussed that some days ago. the answer to Cain’s questions is “Yes”. God saw that Cain did not understand, so he banished him. Why do you model your ethic on that of a fratricidist? You demonstrate that we need health-care reform so that we stop killing our brothers.
The Great Society actually worked. From the later 1960 through the 1970s, the gap between rich & poor fell. Ronald Reagan killed the Great society, and, since then, homeless has risen, literacy has fallen, and children have gone hungry.
Practice personal responsibility: continue to help your fellow Americans. Do not let them die because they cannot afford to see a doctor. Good luck.
I for one love government and all the messy business of democracy. Don’t like it? Get involved. Roll up your sleeves (read, study and learn from our history) run for office, attend civic meetings aligned with your interests and make a difference. Least of all, get off your beige butt and VOTE in every election! After all, the government is US, unless we continue to surrender our precious freedoms to the corporations and their separate interests.
If you believe someone else’s need, however dire, is a claim on the time, effort, and property of others, then you cannot claim to be in favor of limited government, and the only consistent result is an eventual full-fledged socialist dictatorship.
German history shows the way. From the first social welfare state under Bismark to extermination camps under Hitler in two or three generations.
Sound extreme? No, just logically consistent, which is what the Democrats were being by passing this healthcare DEform bill regardless of the cost to them in upcoming elections. I give them credit for the courage of their convictions, however evil their convictions are.
The only hope is for Americans to remember what “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” are supposed to mean.
Pschearer, please show how “the first social welfare state under Bismark [sic]” led directly to “extermination camps under Hitler”.
I don’t think you can, and, if I am right, then you are simply whining hyperbolically about a health-insurance reform plan that keeps children from dying & keeps families from bankrupting themselves.
Folks, what I also said was that in life, bad things happen to all kinds of people. Marble was not personally irresponsible in getting hurt. He was just hit by one of the myriad misfortunes that life throws at us. And yes, were he a friend of mine or someone connected with my life I would help in whatever way I could. We do this all the time out here ” in the sticks”. But you are also correct when you say that I feel the government has no right to simply use my tax money for any
lost cause it feels will garner it votes next election. And, believe it or not, this particular conservative also feels that no government has the right to tell anyone who they can or cannot marry, what church they must attend or almost anything else you can mention. The government should make sure the roads are reasonably well repaired, the huns are not storming our borders and fires are put out in a timely manner. Other than that, stay out of peoples way and let them concentrate on living as best they can.
So your answer is to simply write off the people who slip through the cracks, even though they’ve acted responsibly? You conservatives are pretty hardcore. Sounds like a pretty $hitty deal to me.
No one ever promised us that life would be fair. The sooner we all accept that fact the sooner we can quit crying about it and deal with it. Win, lose, or draw you play the cards life deals you because there really is no choice in the matter. And those who have ” slipped through the cracks” through no fault of their own still have the responsibility to claw their way back up through the cracks as best they can. Life is a cruel game and only a fool believes that there will be no losers. You all have the choice to believe as you wish and speak your minds to express those thoughts and beliefs. There are those of us who fought and would fight again to protect that right for you even if we disagree with you. But hold your thoughts and beliefs up to the yardstick of reality and take an honest measurement. I, also, wish for freedom, equality and good health for all. But I also know that wishing or believing does not make it so and I do not count on the generosity of strangers, either spontaneous or government mandated, to rescue me from lifes pitfalls. I will either overcome the adversity or I will die in the attempt. This is my belief based upon what I perceive to be right and logical. It doesn’t have to make sense to anyone else. But, then again, I don’t expect anyone else to have to pay for my beliefs with their own hard-earned money. My best wishes to all of you and I sincerely hope Marbles situation will improve.
Rocky, life is not a game. Please work to help your fellow human beings. Work independently & work w/in the system. Health insurance reform is a step toward ensuring that all children get health-care and that no one goes bankrupt over unavoidable medical costs. This is what government should do: Promote the general welfare.
Whether you agree or not, please stop your fellow Republicans from shooting at & threatening Representatives. If the Republicans and the regressive radio voices continue fomenting violence, someone will wind up dead.
I just saw the Tea Baggers gathering for a rally in Searchlight Nevada (population 800) on CNN TV. What I couldn’t see was if Porta-Potties were being provided for an expected crowd of “10,000”.
I’ve traveled thru the Southwest (including Nevada) & there’s not very many “rest stops” between cities. I wonder if they thought about the details of personal hygiene. Gives a new meaning to “Crap Shoot”;-P
And they should keep an eye on Litter Bugs & fine them big $$$ for leaving any trash laying around!
Okay, I am probably going to ruffle some feathers with my next comments but believe me when I say that I am not trying to deliberately inflame anyones sense of outrage.
BrianCook, they are not my “fellow Republicans” as you put it. I am not a Republican. I consider myself to be an American Freeman and vote for whomever most closely represents my personal convictions. I suppose that Libertarian would be my choice of party if I had to choose but even they are comprised mostly of political creatures who will trade and barter their morals away if the price is right. And I have not yet read todays paper so which shootings by which Republicans are you referring to?
I am not condoning violence by anyone but there again this is the real world we live in and violence, as well as unfairness and bad luck, are simply a part of it to be dealt with in whatever fashion applicable. It has happened before and will happen again despite any wishes to the contrary. If someone is unable to accept such a fundamental truth as that then their grasp of reality and their fitness to function in society as a whole becomes suspect.
And then, inevitably, there are the children.
Yes, BrianCook , I hate the thought of children suffering and in need of medical care and food. And if this whole health care fiasco was to benefit children ONLY then I would be tempted to support it, even though I know in my cold, conservative heart that it would be fighting a losing battle. The fact is that the health and well-being of all children should be considered by the parents of those children before ever deciding to have them. If a couple cannot support a family through their own efforts then they should refrain from having children until they can. But, once again, the government has made it easier to have kids and go on welfare than it is to make it through hard work and determination. As long as people can vote for a living why should they work?
Oh, and maybe calling life a game gives some of you the wrong impression, even though it is exactly that. Maybe it would help you if you looked upon it as a continuing struggle against all the bad things that can happen to people as they go about their day-to-day lives. Either way, there will be those who, through no fault of their own, fail.
This is life. Rail against it though we may, it will not change. Death is not “fair”. Hunger is not “fair”. Cancer, War and Pestilence are not “fair”. But they exist and will continue to exist never-the-less. You can accept that or waste your time and energy complaining about it. All the government “reform” plans won’t change it either.
The choice is yours to do as you wish but I still think it is wrong to force anyone to pay for something they do not want. The so-called Liberals are very big on the separation of church and state issue. It would do us all good to remember that charity is normally a function of the church, not the state.
Best wishes to you all.
Rocky, I am glad to read that you are not a Republican. You can hardly blame me for presuming that you were—or at least that your political leanings were regressive. In that respect, my presumption is correct. You simply hold regressive convictions without joining any party, as is your right.
So far, no representatives have been shot, but several who voted for health-insurance reform have been threatened, and Sarah Palin, the voice of the Treason Party, disseminated a message to her followers that exhorted them to “reload” and used crosshairs to identify the House districts of the seventeen representatives she wants to replace.
I am glad that you do not condone violence, and it is your very statement that violence is a form of misfortune that argues for Medicare For All. The health-insurance reform bill helps us move toward ensuring that our society will help those whom such misfortune strikes. Better to help them than leave them to die, wouldn’t you say?
I completely agree with you that people should not have children whom then cannot support materially, but, since misfortune is unforeseen when it strikes, we need to ensure that the children do not suffer. You wouldn’t disagree with that, would you?
Life is neither game nor struggle. It is a glorious gift of time in which we can do good and leave the universe better than we found it. Buckminster Fuller teaches that human beings exist to counter the force of entropy.
As for paying for something that you do not want, you are free not to do so. Find your own island and live there completely independently of the rest of humanity. For the rest of us, however, John Donne informed us many years ago, “No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main.” Thus, living in society means paying for items that we neither want nor use.
I pay for a great deal of your survival and your good life daily already, and you pay for a great deal of mine. Rail against it all you want. Living is a community means helping—and paying for—others.
BrianCook, you appear to be a well-read individual who is as sure of his convictions as I am of mine. And I sincerely believe that you are a fine person trying your best to do what you think is right and proper. Your comments give me food for thought and I assure you that I really do try to see all sides of any issue. However, I fear that on this issue neither of us can sway the others point of view. You call Mrs. Palin treasonous.
Last time I checked treason was a crime against the constitution for the United States of America. Speaking her mind to a crowd of supporters does not constitute treason no matter how inflammatory her remarks may be.
Closer to treason is the constitutionally questionable way that the present administration has handled not only this health care fiasco, but several other matters in which it has exceeded its constitutional authority. Take a close look at constitutional law, BrianCook, and you may see what I’m getting at. Whether we agree with the laws or not, the constitution is the basis for our way of life here in this country. If we simply disregard any law that we disagree with then we devolve into chaos.
Sir, I would LOVE to have an island that I could retreat to in order to escape the idiocy that threatens to destroy us all. But if I did that there would probably be a United Nations Task Force sent in to re-educate my simple, , “regressive”, little utopia into something more progressive. God knows we can,t have those “regressive types” running around loose fomenting dissension!
Fortunately this situation should resolve itself one way or another in short order. Either this reform thing will work and we’ll all live happily ever after, or the American voters will replace the current crop of democrats with those a little more receptive to their constituency. Either way, I have enjoyed this running dialog with you all and wish you all the best.
lewisbower about 14 years ago
Yeah Jen, the other side is saying, “Pay our medical bills for us with your tax dollars because the only work I did was under the table. I would have paid taxes, medical insurance and Social Security but I have to drive a new car every year. Insurance costs ten grand, but my car cost thirty grand. What’s more important?”
rotts about 14 years ago
Same at ya, harleyquinn.
BrianCrook about 14 years ago
SLOWPOKE shows itself, again, as one of the more intelligent cartoons. Seeing it prick the T.P. balloon is pleasure.
The T.P. is the result of a generation of cutting funds to public education. The T.P.-ers are mal-educated pawns of the right-wing media. Almost the entire T.P. platform benefits the extraordinarily wealthy while hurting the T.P.-ers. The wealthy own the media, which encourage the ugly & self-destructive impulses in the T.P. Witness the T.P.’s behavior yesterday.
Marble, thanks for your story. You & your wife have my sympathy. There are thousands of such stories all over the nation as we lose people each year because they lack health insurance.
Lew, just because you are envious of your neighbor is no reason not to support this health-care reform bill.
Harley, your citation is of a regressive blog, not from a piece of reporting. When you have facts, then please share them. Thanks.
POPPA1956 about 14 years ago
That Health care reform in the US is needed should have been clear since the failed “Hillarycare” of 1993. While the Republicans in congress now seem rife with ideas for ‘smaller incremental’ bills, one does wonder what they’ve been doing about this issue for 17 years (other than denying there ARE issues). While I am leary of any 2700 page law, (that’s the last page count I heard) doing what has been done is not the right answer either.
GJ_Jehosaphat about 14 years ago
Single Payer Health Care could have been written on a fraction of pages and reduced paperwork for health care providers. My hope is that after the dust settles & people see their fears are unfounded that real change(s) can make health care more efficient and reduce costs for all!
lewisbower about 14 years ago
BRIAN The last time I looked I did not see TP marches in that media giant, Hollywood. The media is right wing? Go back to your hippie commune and live off the land. You constantly blast our fine fighting men Oh they get health care, education assistance, and a co=signer on their mortgage. What cheap company do you work for?Does it bother me that my neighbor lives foolishly then expects my taxes to pay for his misfortune? You’re bleeep right! You say I have no job. Yeah, it would interfere with my volunteer work. Luckily, I was intelligent enough to work, save, and invest during my working years so I could retire in comfort. Sorry, I forgot you don’t believe in those three right wing principles.
Rocky Premium Member about 14 years ago
When is the last time any of you have ever seen the Federal Government get involved with ANYTHING without making a mess out of it? The answer is not nor has it ever been this so-called health care reform. Tort reform just might have helped but there are too many lawyers in government to have any hopes of that. Marble, I sympathize with your plight but is it reasonable to expect me and others like me to pay for your misfortune? Ten years ago I suffered broken bones and loss of work but you know what? That’s life. Bad things happen to everyone now and then but you grit your teeth and go on. You do not expect total strangers to come rushing to your aid and you certainly should not want that aid to come by way of governmental co-ercion of you fellow citizens. The bottom line is that responsibility for ones own actions or circumstances is quickly becoming a thing of the past. What we have now is Obama, Pelosi, and the DMP in charge of our financial future. God help us all…
BrianCrook about 14 years ago
I am glad, Lew, that you described your intelligence in the past tense. Knowing you now, I could not agree more. Yes, the mainstream media lean to the right. Are you surprised? I do not know what you mean when you say that I “blast our fine fighting men”. Find some proof of that or stop with the personal attacks. Your overwhelming shame about enlisting in Vietnam reeks in your every attack of me. That is fine, but it shows a lace of substance in your arguments. As for your envy of your neighbor, that, like your self-loathing over your Vietnam mistakes, your living off government largesse & off your wife’s work should not guide your positions on policy.
Look: A nation is judged by how it helps the “least of these”: the disadvantaged, the oppressed, the crippled, the vulnerable, the children. The U.S. is finally back on course to help those people w/in its borders. We took a step last night toward ensuring that fewer would die because of medical costs & that there would be fewer bankruptcies related to medical costs.
I really have trouble understanding why you would be against this. I am all in favor or working, saving, & investing. I practice all three along with my own volunteer work—teaching G.E.D. & doing free tutoring of children, currently. What volunteer work do you do?
Rocky, I agree that the government does not always do the best work, but you can hardly point to the private sector for the best work either. In any area, one will find public & private doing well sometimes & ill sometimes. The question is whether we should ensure that all Americans have quality health care. The answer is Yes, of course. Where is the problem?
tpenna about 14 years ago
See, here’s the difference: I actually do think it’s reasonable to expect me and others like me to help out folks like MARBLE COCK (after all, we are the United States, and we do much better when we come together to support one another in need).
And what’s more, rocky1927, I think you believe it’s reasonable, too. The difference is, you’d probably prefer to help out by means of individual charity, without the government having to become involved. Personally, I just think it’s ridiculous for somebody who needs surgery and has been booted off of his health insurance to have to put together a fund-raiser.
And as for your “bottom line” regarding responsibility, it seems you simply aren’t reading thoroughly. Can you please show me where MARBLE COCK acted irresponsibly? Was it when he worked a high-paying job with good insurance? Was it when he walked on the sidewalk and got hit by a car with a drunk driver at the wheel? Was it when he served in the military or tried to sell his own personal belongings to pay his enormous medical bills?
Or was it simply when you decided that his story didn’t fit into your simplistic narrative about “personal responsibility” and you decided to stop listening?
lewisbower about 14 years ago
BRIAN If enemy soldiers were in your town raping and killing your family, would you fight? Well, if it were happening half way around the world would you? Do you pick and choose which wars you think are moral? This is basically what they ask soldiers who want CO status.So are you a Quaker or a warmonger?
You asked who I volunteer for. Read to Succeed. Yes, this right wing Nazi helps the disabled to be able to better his job aspects and quality of life. Whoda thunk you could do this without a single tax dollar?
You ask for proof that you insult the fine young men and women who defend you? Let’s see, did I hear you saying yesterday that they get education, health, and mortgage help? Most major companies offer that. Perhaps the bead stringing co-op you spent most of your time at didn’t.
When Cain asked God, Am I my brother’s keeper”, God wisely didn’t answer. Glad you’re smarter than Him. If you go back to your hippie days you’ll realise the Great Society failed. We created a welfare state the destroyed the American family. The government provide foo, housing and medical. Lets do it again, maybe we’ll get different results.
Personal responsibility. Sell that new car and buy health care. Work a second job and hire a tutor for you offspring. Turn down the thermostat and wear last years sweater. Hold up your head when you walk in the polling place.
tpenna about 14 years ago
Hi Lewreader, thanks for keeping the discussion going here. I know my original question was for rocky1927, but perhaps you could help out. Can you identify where MARBLE COCK acted irresponsibly? Can you ever allow that there are instances in which mere “personal responsibility’ will not be enough to do the trick? That sometimes hard-working people need help to overcome obstacles not of their own making? Obstacles that, no matter how hard they try, they simply can’t overcome on their own?
BrianCrook about 14 years ago
Precisely, Lew. I object to sending American soldiers around the world to torture, maim, & kill. I am in favor of sending American soldiers—especially as part of U.N. missions—to keep the peace & to prevent others from torturing, maiming, & killing. The U.S. has done that sometimes in my lifetime (see Bosnia & Kosovo), but my country, too often, has worked as an aggressor (see Vietnam, Iraq, Nicaragua) or been utterly ineffectual (see Lebanon) or looked the other way (see Sudan).
I am glad that you work for Read To Succeed. It looks like a fine organization. I find its website giving a Tennessee address. I was under the impression that you lived in Connecticut. Does it have a branch in Connecticut, or do you live in Tennessee? (By the way, it is a non-profit: It receives tax help by being tax-exempt, and by offering tax exemptions for its contributors.) No one denies, by the way, that charities do good work. Charitable work & volunteer work do not absolve a society from ensuring that its citizens’ basic needs are met. When charities fail, the government must step in.
I am glad that you cannot find an instance of my insulting soldiers (who, by the way, do not defend me; currently, American soldiers have served as pawns for the corrupt chickenhawk strategies of our last president; it was partly in respect for American military that I voted for a president whose hands were clean of the warmongering of previous congresses & presidencies; I am sorry that you show so little respect for our forces that you want them to bleed in Iraq so Blackwater can make billions & Big Oil has bigger profits).
As for Cain, we discussed that some days ago. the answer to Cain’s questions is “Yes”. God saw that Cain did not understand, so he banished him. Why do you model your ethic on that of a fratricidist? You demonstrate that we need health-care reform so that we stop killing our brothers.
The Great Society actually worked. From the later 1960 through the 1970s, the gap between rich & poor fell. Ronald Reagan killed the Great society, and, since then, homeless has risen, literacy has fallen, and children have gone hungry.
Practice personal responsibility: continue to help your fellow Americans. Do not let them die because they cannot afford to see a doctor. Good luck.
Pjbflyn about 14 years ago
I for one love government and all the messy business of democracy. Don’t like it? Get involved. Roll up your sleeves (read, study and learn from our history) run for office, attend civic meetings aligned with your interests and make a difference. Least of all, get off your beige butt and VOTE in every election! After all, the government is US, unless we continue to surrender our precious freedoms to the corporations and their separate interests.
pschearer Premium Member about 14 years ago
If you believe someone else’s need, however dire, is a claim on the time, effort, and property of others, then you cannot claim to be in favor of limited government, and the only consistent result is an eventual full-fledged socialist dictatorship.
German history shows the way. From the first social welfare state under Bismark to extermination camps under Hitler in two or three generations.
Sound extreme? No, just logically consistent, which is what the Democrats were being by passing this healthcare DEform bill regardless of the cost to them in upcoming elections. I give them credit for the courage of their convictions, however evil their convictions are.
The only hope is for Americans to remember what “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” are supposed to mean.
BrianCrook about 14 years ago
Pschearer, please show how “the first social welfare state under Bismark [sic]” led directly to “extermination camps under Hitler”.
I don’t think you can, and, if I am right, then you are simply whining hyperbolically about a health-insurance reform plan that keeps children from dying & keeps families from bankrupting themselves.
Rocky Premium Member about 14 years ago
Folks, what I also said was that in life, bad things happen to all kinds of people. Marble was not personally irresponsible in getting hurt. He was just hit by one of the myriad misfortunes that life throws at us. And yes, were he a friend of mine or someone connected with my life I would help in whatever way I could. We do this all the time out here ” in the sticks”. But you are also correct when you say that I feel the government has no right to simply use my tax money for any lost cause it feels will garner it votes next election. And, believe it or not, this particular conservative also feels that no government has the right to tell anyone who they can or cannot marry, what church they must attend or almost anything else you can mention. The government should make sure the roads are reasonably well repaired, the huns are not storming our borders and fires are put out in a timely manner. Other than that, stay out of peoples way and let them concentrate on living as best they can.
tpenna about 14 years ago
So your answer is to simply write off the people who slip through the cracks, even though they’ve acted responsibly? You conservatives are pretty hardcore. Sounds like a pretty $hitty deal to me.
Rocky Premium Member about 14 years ago
No one ever promised us that life would be fair. The sooner we all accept that fact the sooner we can quit crying about it and deal with it. Win, lose, or draw you play the cards life deals you because there really is no choice in the matter. And those who have ” slipped through the cracks” through no fault of their own still have the responsibility to claw their way back up through the cracks as best they can. Life is a cruel game and only a fool believes that there will be no losers. You all have the choice to believe as you wish and speak your minds to express those thoughts and beliefs. There are those of us who fought and would fight again to protect that right for you even if we disagree with you. But hold your thoughts and beliefs up to the yardstick of reality and take an honest measurement. I, also, wish for freedom, equality and good health for all. But I also know that wishing or believing does not make it so and I do not count on the generosity of strangers, either spontaneous or government mandated, to rescue me from lifes pitfalls. I will either overcome the adversity or I will die in the attempt. This is my belief based upon what I perceive to be right and logical. It doesn’t have to make sense to anyone else. But, then again, I don’t expect anyone else to have to pay for my beliefs with their own hard-earned money. My best wishes to all of you and I sincerely hope Marbles situation will improve.
BrianCrook about 14 years ago
Rocky, life is not a game. Please work to help your fellow human beings. Work independently & work w/in the system. Health insurance reform is a step toward ensuring that all children get health-care and that no one goes bankrupt over unavoidable medical costs. This is what government should do: Promote the general welfare.
Whether you agree or not, please stop your fellow Republicans from shooting at & threatening Representatives. If the Republicans and the regressive radio voices continue fomenting violence, someone will wind up dead.
Charles Brobst Premium Member about 14 years ago
Beck and Palin ought to be arrested for encouraging violence.
GJ_Jehosaphat about 14 years ago
I just saw the Tea Baggers gathering for a rally in Searchlight Nevada (population 800) on CNN TV. What I couldn’t see was if Porta-Potties were being provided for an expected crowd of “10,000”.
I’ve traveled thru the Southwest (including Nevada) & there’s not very many “rest stops” between cities. I wonder if they thought about the details of personal hygiene. Gives a new meaning to “Crap Shoot”;-P
And they should keep an eye on Litter Bugs & fine them big $$$ for leaving any trash laying around!
Rocky Premium Member about 14 years ago
Okay, I am probably going to ruffle some feathers with my next comments but believe me when I say that I am not trying to deliberately inflame anyones sense of outrage. BrianCook, they are not my “fellow Republicans” as you put it. I am not a Republican. I consider myself to be an American Freeman and vote for whomever most closely represents my personal convictions. I suppose that Libertarian would be my choice of party if I had to choose but even they are comprised mostly of political creatures who will trade and barter their morals away if the price is right. And I have not yet read todays paper so which shootings by which Republicans are you referring to? I am not condoning violence by anyone but there again this is the real world we live in and violence, as well as unfairness and bad luck, are simply a part of it to be dealt with in whatever fashion applicable. It has happened before and will happen again despite any wishes to the contrary. If someone is unable to accept such a fundamental truth as that then their grasp of reality and their fitness to function in society as a whole becomes suspect. And then, inevitably, there are the children. Yes, BrianCook , I hate the thought of children suffering and in need of medical care and food. And if this whole health care fiasco was to benefit children ONLY then I would be tempted to support it, even though I know in my cold, conservative heart that it would be fighting a losing battle. The fact is that the health and well-being of all children should be considered by the parents of those children before ever deciding to have them. If a couple cannot support a family through their own efforts then they should refrain from having children until they can. But, once again, the government has made it easier to have kids and go on welfare than it is to make it through hard work and determination. As long as people can vote for a living why should they work? Oh, and maybe calling life a game gives some of you the wrong impression, even though it is exactly that. Maybe it would help you if you looked upon it as a continuing struggle against all the bad things that can happen to people as they go about their day-to-day lives. Either way, there will be those who, through no fault of their own, fail. This is life. Rail against it though we may, it will not change. Death is not “fair”. Hunger is not “fair”. Cancer, War and Pestilence are not “fair”. But they exist and will continue to exist never-the-less. You can accept that or waste your time and energy complaining about it. All the government “reform” plans won’t change it either. The choice is yours to do as you wish but I still think it is wrong to force anyone to pay for something they do not want. The so-called Liberals are very big on the separation of church and state issue. It would do us all good to remember that charity is normally a function of the church, not the state. Best wishes to you all.
BrianCrook about 14 years ago
Rocky, I am glad to read that you are not a Republican. You can hardly blame me for presuming that you were—or at least that your political leanings were regressive. In that respect, my presumption is correct. You simply hold regressive convictions without joining any party, as is your right.
So far, no representatives have been shot, but several who voted for health-insurance reform have been threatened, and Sarah Palin, the voice of the Treason Party, disseminated a message to her followers that exhorted them to “reload” and used crosshairs to identify the House districts of the seventeen representatives she wants to replace.
I am glad that you do not condone violence, and it is your very statement that violence is a form of misfortune that argues for Medicare For All. The health-insurance reform bill helps us move toward ensuring that our society will help those whom such misfortune strikes. Better to help them than leave them to die, wouldn’t you say?
I completely agree with you that people should not have children whom then cannot support materially, but, since misfortune is unforeseen when it strikes, we need to ensure that the children do not suffer. You wouldn’t disagree with that, would you?
Life is neither game nor struggle. It is a glorious gift of time in which we can do good and leave the universe better than we found it. Buckminster Fuller teaches that human beings exist to counter the force of entropy.
As for paying for something that you do not want, you are free not to do so. Find your own island and live there completely independently of the rest of humanity. For the rest of us, however, John Donne informed us many years ago, “No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main.” Thus, living in society means paying for items that we neither want nor use.
I pay for a great deal of your survival and your good life daily already, and you pay for a great deal of mine. Rail against it all you want. Living is a community means helping—and paying for—others.
Rocky Premium Member about 14 years ago
BrianCook, you appear to be a well-read individual who is as sure of his convictions as I am of mine. And I sincerely believe that you are a fine person trying your best to do what you think is right and proper. Your comments give me food for thought and I assure you that I really do try to see all sides of any issue. However, I fear that on this issue neither of us can sway the others point of view. You call Mrs. Palin treasonous. Last time I checked treason was a crime against the constitution for the United States of America. Speaking her mind to a crowd of supporters does not constitute treason no matter how inflammatory her remarks may be. Closer to treason is the constitutionally questionable way that the present administration has handled not only this health care fiasco, but several other matters in which it has exceeded its constitutional authority. Take a close look at constitutional law, BrianCook, and you may see what I’m getting at. Whether we agree with the laws or not, the constitution is the basis for our way of life here in this country. If we simply disregard any law that we disagree with then we devolve into chaos. Sir, I would LOVE to have an island that I could retreat to in order to escape the idiocy that threatens to destroy us all. But if I did that there would probably be a United Nations Task Force sent in to re-educate my simple, , “regressive”, little utopia into something more progressive. God knows we can,t have those “regressive types” running around loose fomenting dissension! Fortunately this situation should resolve itself one way or another in short order. Either this reform thing will work and we’ll all live happily ever after, or the American voters will replace the current crop of democrats with those a little more receptive to their constituency. Either way, I have enjoyed this running dialog with you all and wish you all the best.
BrianCrook about 14 years ago
Thanks, Rocky. The feeling is mutual. I would write more, but must return to work. Will attempt a longer reply later.
P.S.: Sarah Palin doesn’t speak her mind. She speaks her hand.