18 dead is normal? 18 families in grief. 18 schools and/or businesses where a friend/classmate/coworker/etc is missing. 18 funerals. 18 hospital bills for failed attempts to keep someone alive, or storing the body in a morgue until the funeral director comes to collect the body. 18 x the number of friends/family missing work in order to go to a funeral. 18.Such a small number when one considers how many are effected.Sadly,C.to reply to the first commentator, Jesus would not approve of gun deaths, car deaths, or unkind sarcasm. But I could be wrong, I only know him from some writings where he said, Love one another. Maybe he really said, Kill them all-God knows his own.But I don’t think so…“The Greatest of these is Love.”Yeah…that sounds like the Jesus I believe in.RespectfullyC.
How about the 125 daily average for automobile related deaths. I guess it is more socially acceptable to die behind the wheel than by a gunshot. Of those 18 how many are related to other criminal acts and not straight out murder.
It’s the people with the guns. And the lame argument about vehicular deaths is just that – lame. Without legs. Why? Because these are accidents, first of all. As a pastor, I’ve buried both car accident victims and gun murder victims. I guarantee the families feel differently about those deaths. How a person dies does matter. But aside from that, why should a high number of car deaths negate the fact that there are way too many PREVENTABLE and unnecessary gun deaths. By all means, let’s work for fewer auto deaths. In fact, law changes and technology changes are making a dramatic difference. But why should we not also work to reduce far more easily preventable gun deaths? We know that it’s possible to do so in a free and prosperous society because many others have done it. Are you suggesting that we’re too dumb to be able to do what others do? Or that we’re too arrogant to learn from others? Or that we just like shooting people?
Actually, historical evidence (non-Christian) is pretty strong that Jesus did exist. But from all that’s known about him, he would disapprove of the guns and NRA.
“And thousands of auto deaths and disabilities. PRAISE JESUS!!!!!!!!!!!!”Interesting story for you – In 2006, I was in Ireland, sitting in a pub in Kildare. The news on the TV ran a story about drinking and driving, and gave some local statistics. The other patrons near us began discussing how terrible it was that 7 people had died in County Kildare from drinking and driving in 2005. I told them back home, we called that “Tuesday”. It’s amazing that a country stereotypically known for drinking has such a low percentage of drunk driving deaths compared to us. I guess we’re just stupid. Any thoughts from Germany, Morty?
“I have no proof, but if I had proof, I wouldn’t need faith.It’s like courage. If you’re never afraid, what do need to be brave for?”
C: In my 66 years yours is one of the best responses to the “question” of faith I have ever heard. One of my quests at this time of my life is to practice more prayer and meditation in my life to be able to better hear and understand “the still small voice” that speaks to my heart and gives me direction and guidance.
This is only meant to be a continuing affirmation in my mind to the quality of person in C. Downs. Like many I know and respect in this complex world, he is a man of reason and constantly displays an attitude of fairness and respect.
Without getting too schmaltzy, I give him great credit for his example of trying to provide fact to these often opinionated discussions, which at times can be just trying to be a voice of reason to get others to think rationally rather than emotionally.
Cars are actually very affordable in Ireland, you can buy one for as low as 2000 Euro. The percentage of homes that have cars is about the same as ours. Believe me, the traffic from Kildare to Dublin every morning and every evening caused me to opt for the train instead. But you are right – there is a pub in every neighborhood. In fact, in looking for an apartment, almost every listing said how close it was to a pub. So perhaps you’ve hit on something: Let’s use the NRA solution to our drunk driving problem. Increase the alcohol consumption and availability of alcohol in this country and see if that works. Lets make sure there are bars and pubs in every neighborhood so nobody has to drive to get drunk. No more blue laws or dry counties, it is your civic duty to drink to protect yourself and everyone else from drunk drivers.
Outside Christian writings, there are brief references in Josephus and Tacitus — Josephus was born in 37AD, Tacitus was born in 56, so neither counts as a strictly contemporary witness. At a minimum, however, the passages suggest that a couple of educated people at the time accepted Jesus as historical. Personally, I think the Pauline letters are sufficient evidence. Yes, they are Christian writings, but there is no reason to think that they (well, some) are not authentic, and it’s hard to imagine the circumstances under which they would have been written if Paul and others at the time didn’t have good reason to accept the historicity of Jesus. Paul, of course, never met Jesus, but he was dealing with people who did know him — his relatives, in fact. So there seems to be no good reason to deny the historicity of Jesus, even if the rest of the story is made up.
Let’s take a look at how both the government and manufacturers deal with the safety of cars and guns.*Regarding cars: Neither gov’t nor manufacturers did much about car safety until Ralph Nader wrote “Unsafe At Any Speed” in 1965. Among other things, he pointed out that the Corvair had poor stability and that the decorative metal rings around dashboard gauges became “cookie cutters” when passengers slammed into them. I am not in a position to write a play-by-play description of how things evolved, but between NHTSA requirements and manufacturers’ design changes, cars became much safer. Soon car manufacturers even started advertising safey to attact more customers- anti-lock brakes and airbags were options for years before they became mandatory. Volvo pitched cars with stronger roof pillar that didn’t collapse in rollovers. Some luxury cars today have sensors that slow the car down if the car in front also slows down. My car has a rear-view camera with a fish-eye lens so I could see even a child crawling behind my back bumper.*Regarding guns: (I’ll let someone else fill this part in)
The ancient literature referring to Jesus (note, they refer to him as a religious leader not as divine) includes Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, and Josephus. The earliest Roman reference to Jesus is by the author Thallos, who wrote about Jesus in ca. 55 CE. Nothing can prove anything for anyone, (we can’t prove the existence of Caesar, for example), but these sources have no Christian agenda, so they can at least be taken seriously. I’m not sure if there’s any real purpose in arguing Jesus’ existence since whether he walked the earth or not is an entirely different question from whether he was the son of God. There are other primary sources you can reference (They’re interesting), but this could turn into an article rather than a comment. I only wanted to note that there is “objective” source evidence for his existence as a person.
Agreed. A friend of mine had a ‘69 Corvair. I rode with him many times and it felt stable. But by ’69, the car had a stigma that GM couldn’t shake, even with all of the improvements. A few years later, Ford had to discontinue the Pinto due to gas tank filler pipes causing deadly fires. The “fix” cost about $20, but the car’s reputation couldn’t be repaired.
In the meantime, Democrats ingore the daily run of the kill 915 per day abortion deaths. http://washingtonexaminer.com/planned-parenthood-reports-record-year-for-abortions/article/2517801#.UOs82UbCz8A
mdavis4183 said, 7 minutes ago: ’Pett’s a moron.Yes, of course, dear; now be a good chap and pass the popcorn; there’s an interesting conversation happening just above your comment. @Radish:‘If Jesus had a gun he would be alive today.’ : ha!
If you’ve got a spare afternoon, check out “Who Wrote the New Testament?: The Making of the Christian Myth” by Burton Mack. It details the various layers in the Bible and the various competing viewpoints among the early Christians. As I said, I don’t see any reason to doubt the existence of Jesus, but it seems pretty clear that there was a lot of myth-making going on. And of course it’s worth remembering that our modern sense of historical truth is largely dependent on the existence of large amounts of archival documents. For the most part there were no archives in the ancient world, and no possibility to find out for sure what was going on.
“When you factor out how many murders, rapes and other crimes are committed by illegals, the number drops precipitously.”
Have you got data to share?
Illegal immigrants who hope to stay here tend to keep a low profile. If you include “being here illegally” among your “other crimes”, then of course the number rises to 100%, but that’s by no means what the cartoon is talking about.
The number of legal residents of American who shoot people is smaller than the number who don’t.The number of non-legal residents of America who shoot people is smaller than the number who don’t.Perhaps it’s true that the percentage of non-legal residents of America who shoot people is larger than the percentage of legal residents who shoot people, and perhaps it isn’t. But that percentage differential would have to be HUGE for the removal of gun deaths cased by non-legal residents of America to result in a “precipitous” drop in the total number.
“Funny how these liberal weenies couldn’t care less about crimes committed by illegal aliens.”
Correction: We care about violent crimes whether committed by illegal aliens, legal immigrants, or natural-born citizens. What is it about the first category that inclines you to single it out?
There’s a story (perhaps apocryphal) that in Saudi Arabia any foreigner involved in a traffic accident is legally deemed to have been at fault, because if they hadn’t been in the country the accident wouldn’t have happened. That’s true as far as it goes, but still…
“Maybe that they DON’T BELONG HERE? That when they’re not endangering our roads driving illegally, they’re bankrupting hospitals with “free” medical care? Having anchor babies?”
Again, the topic of the cartoon is violent crimes – rapes, murders, shootings. Your first post stated that removing those violent crimes done by illegal immigrants would cause that number to drop precipitously. Of course, you included “other crimes,” and once again by definition “illegal immigration” is a crime, but it is not a violent crime which, again, is the subject of the cartoon. If you believe the number of violent crimes would in fact drop precipitously if there were no illegal immigrants in this country, show some data.
Of course, if an illegal immigrant commits a violent crime, I don’t suggest that the perpetrator should be given a pass or shown leniency because he or she is an illegal immigrant, but that’s the only reading of “Funny how these liberal weenies couldn’t care less about crimes committed by illegal aliens” that makes sense as a response to this cartoon.
chazandru over 11 years ago
18 dead is normal? 18 families in grief. 18 schools and/or businesses where a friend/classmate/coworker/etc is missing. 18 funerals. 18 hospital bills for failed attempts to keep someone alive, or storing the body in a morgue until the funeral director comes to collect the body. 18 x the number of friends/family missing work in order to go to a funeral. 18.Such a small number when one considers how many are effected.Sadly,C.to reply to the first commentator, Jesus would not approve of gun deaths, car deaths, or unkind sarcasm. But I could be wrong, I only know him from some writings where he said, Love one another. Maybe he really said, Kill them all-God knows his own.But I don’t think so…“The Greatest of these is Love.”Yeah…that sounds like the Jesus I believe in.RespectfullyC.
Chillbilly over 11 years ago
Jesus doesn’t approve or disapprove of anything. He’s dead.
klr562 over 11 years ago
How about the 125 daily average for automobile related deaths. I guess it is more socially acceptable to die behind the wheel than by a gunshot. Of those 18 how many are related to other criminal acts and not straight out murder.
cdward over 11 years ago
Does it matter?
Simon_Jester over 11 years ago
Reagan
cdward over 11 years ago
It’s the people with the guns. And the lame argument about vehicular deaths is just that – lame. Without legs. Why? Because these are accidents, first of all. As a pastor, I’ve buried both car accident victims and gun murder victims. I guarantee the families feel differently about those deaths. How a person dies does matter. But aside from that, why should a high number of car deaths negate the fact that there are way too many PREVENTABLE and unnecessary gun deaths. By all means, let’s work for fewer auto deaths. In fact, law changes and technology changes are making a dramatic difference. But why should we not also work to reduce far more easily preventable gun deaths? We know that it’s possible to do so in a free and prosperous society because many others have done it. Are you suggesting that we’re too dumb to be able to do what others do? Or that we’re too arrogant to learn from others? Or that we just like shooting people?
cdward over 11 years ago
Actually, historical evidence (non-Christian) is pretty strong that Jesus did exist. But from all that’s known about him, he would disapprove of the guns and NRA.
Fourcrows over 11 years ago
“And thousands of auto deaths and disabilities. PRAISE JESUS!!!!!!!!!!!!”Interesting story for you – In 2006, I was in Ireland, sitting in a pub in Kildare. The news on the TV ran a story about drinking and driving, and gave some local statistics. The other patrons near us began discussing how terrible it was that 7 people had died in County Kildare from drinking and driving in 2005. I told them back home, we called that “Tuesday”. It’s amazing that a country stereotypically known for drinking has such a low percentage of drunk driving deaths compared to us. I guess we’re just stupid. Any thoughts from Germany, Morty?
Mickey 13 over 11 years ago
“I have no proof, but if I had proof, I wouldn’t need faith.It’s like courage. If you’re never afraid, what do need to be brave for?”
C: In my 66 years yours is one of the best responses to the “question” of faith I have ever heard. One of my quests at this time of my life is to practice more prayer and meditation in my life to be able to better hear and understand “the still small voice” that speaks to my heart and gives me direction and guidance.
This is only meant to be a continuing affirmation in my mind to the quality of person in C. Downs. Like many I know and respect in this complex world, he is a man of reason and constantly displays an attitude of fairness and respect.
Without getting too schmaltzy, I give him great credit for his example of trying to provide fact to these often opinionated discussions, which at times can be just trying to be a voice of reason to get others to think rationally rather than emotionally.
Fourcrows over 11 years ago
Cars are actually very affordable in Ireland, you can buy one for as low as 2000 Euro. The percentage of homes that have cars is about the same as ours. Believe me, the traffic from Kildare to Dublin every morning and every evening caused me to opt for the train instead. But you are right – there is a pub in every neighborhood. In fact, in looking for an apartment, almost every listing said how close it was to a pub. So perhaps you’ve hit on something: Let’s use the NRA solution to our drunk driving problem. Increase the alcohol consumption and availability of alcohol in this country and see if that works. Lets make sure there are bars and pubs in every neighborhood so nobody has to drive to get drunk. No more blue laws or dry counties, it is your civic duty to drink to protect yourself and everyone else from drunk drivers.
lonecat over 11 years ago
Outside Christian writings, there are brief references in Josephus and Tacitus — Josephus was born in 37AD, Tacitus was born in 56, so neither counts as a strictly contemporary witness. At a minimum, however, the passages suggest that a couple of educated people at the time accepted Jesus as historical. Personally, I think the Pauline letters are sufficient evidence. Yes, they are Christian writings, but there is no reason to think that they (well, some) are not authentic, and it’s hard to imagine the circumstances under which they would have been written if Paul and others at the time didn’t have good reason to accept the historicity of Jesus. Paul, of course, never met Jesus, but he was dealing with people who did know him — his relatives, in fact. So there seems to be no good reason to deny the historicity of Jesus, even if the rest of the story is made up.
Marty Z over 11 years ago
Let’s take a look at how both the government and manufacturers deal with the safety of cars and guns.*Regarding cars: Neither gov’t nor manufacturers did much about car safety until Ralph Nader wrote “Unsafe At Any Speed” in 1965. Among other things, he pointed out that the Corvair had poor stability and that the decorative metal rings around dashboard gauges became “cookie cutters” when passengers slammed into them. I am not in a position to write a play-by-play description of how things evolved, but between NHTSA requirements and manufacturers’ design changes, cars became much safer. Soon car manufacturers even started advertising safey to attact more customers- anti-lock brakes and airbags were options for years before they became mandatory. Volvo pitched cars with stronger roof pillar that didn’t collapse in rollovers. Some luxury cars today have sensors that slow the car down if the car in front also slows down. My car has a rear-view camera with a fish-eye lens so I could see even a child crawling behind my back bumper.*Regarding guns: (I’ll let someone else fill this part in)
cdward over 11 years ago
The ancient literature referring to Jesus (note, they refer to him as a religious leader not as divine) includes Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, and Josephus. The earliest Roman reference to Jesus is by the author Thallos, who wrote about Jesus in ca. 55 CE. Nothing can prove anything for anyone, (we can’t prove the existence of Caesar, for example), but these sources have no Christian agenda, so they can at least be taken seriously. I’m not sure if there’s any real purpose in arguing Jesus’ existence since whether he walked the earth or not is an entirely different question from whether he was the son of God. There are other primary sources you can reference (They’re interesting), but this could turn into an article rather than a comment. I only wanted to note that there is “objective” source evidence for his existence as a person.
Marty Z over 11 years ago
Agreed. A friend of mine had a ‘69 Corvair. I rode with him many times and it felt stable. But by ’69, the car had a stigma that GM couldn’t shake, even with all of the improvements. A few years later, Ford had to discontinue the Pinto due to gas tank filler pipes causing deadly fires. The “fix” cost about $20, but the car’s reputation couldn’t be repaired.
Don Winchester Premium Member over 11 years ago
In the meantime, Democrats ingore the daily run of the kill 915 per day abortion deaths. http://washingtonexaminer.com/planned-parenthood-reports-record-year-for-abortions/article/2517801#.UOs82UbCz8A
OmqR-IV.0 over 11 years ago
mdavis4183 said, 7 minutes ago: ’Pett’s a moron.Yes, of course, dear; now be a good chap and pass the popcorn; there’s an interesting conversation happening just above your comment. @Radish:‘If Jesus had a gun he would be alive today.’ : ha!
lonecat over 11 years ago
If you’ve got a spare afternoon, check out “Who Wrote the New Testament?: The Making of the Christian Myth” by Burton Mack. It details the various layers in the Bible and the various competing viewpoints among the early Christians. As I said, I don’t see any reason to doubt the existence of Jesus, but it seems pretty clear that there was a lot of myth-making going on. And of course it’s worth remembering that our modern sense of historical truth is largely dependent on the existence of large amounts of archival documents. For the most part there were no archives in the ancient world, and no possibility to find out for sure what was going on.
USN1977 over 11 years ago
Ironic that every politician who demands that no civilian be allowed to own a firearm, is protected by a security detail of armed men.
fritzoid Premium Member over 11 years ago
“When you factor out how many murders, rapes and other crimes are committed by illegals, the number drops precipitously.”
Have you got data to share?
Illegal immigrants who hope to stay here tend to keep a low profile. If you include “being here illegally” among your “other crimes”, then of course the number rises to 100%, but that’s by no means what the cartoon is talking about.
The number of legal residents of American who shoot people is smaller than the number who don’t.The number of non-legal residents of America who shoot people is smaller than the number who don’t.Perhaps it’s true that the percentage of non-legal residents of America who shoot people is larger than the percentage of legal residents who shoot people, and perhaps it isn’t. But that percentage differential would have to be HUGE for the removal of gun deaths cased by non-legal residents of America to result in a “precipitous” drop in the total number.
fritzoid Premium Member over 11 years ago
“Funny how these liberal weenies couldn’t care less about crimes committed by illegal aliens.”
Correction: We care about violent crimes whether committed by illegal aliens, legal immigrants, or natural-born citizens. What is it about the first category that inclines you to single it out?
There’s a story (perhaps apocryphal) that in Saudi Arabia any foreigner involved in a traffic accident is legally deemed to have been at fault, because if they hadn’t been in the country the accident wouldn’t have happened. That’s true as far as it goes, but still…
fritzoid Premium Member over 11 years ago
“Maybe that they DON’T BELONG HERE? That when they’re not endangering our roads driving illegally, they’re bankrupting hospitals with “free” medical care? Having anchor babies?”
Again, the topic of the cartoon is violent crimes – rapes, murders, shootings. Your first post stated that removing those violent crimes done by illegal immigrants would cause that number to drop precipitously. Of course, you included “other crimes,” and once again by definition “illegal immigration” is a crime, but it is not a violent crime which, again, is the subject of the cartoon. If you believe the number of violent crimes would in fact drop precipitously if there were no illegal immigrants in this country, show some data.
Of course, if an illegal immigrant commits a violent crime, I don’t suggest that the perpetrator should be given a pass or shown leniency because he or she is an illegal immigrant, but that’s the only reading of “Funny how these liberal weenies couldn’t care less about crimes committed by illegal aliens” that makes sense as a response to this cartoon.
rockngolfer over 11 years ago
Joel Pett has a new cartoon today, the 25th on the AAEC website. Wonder why he isn’t here.