Stupid apple and oranges comparison, Freedom is a right that must at times be defended or it will be lost to someone or something bigger or more powerful. The overwhelming majority of the ‘cost’ on the tag is caused by criminal activity, or negligence of safety rules. The small fraction that comes from non-criminal persons defending themselves does relate to the cost of freedom regarding everyone’s right to self defense.
I’d love to see your evidence, if you have any, Ima. (Trick question — you never have any evidence.) A gun owner is much more likely to be hurt or killed by a gun than a non-gun owner. A lot of those deaths and wounds are due to domestic violence, accidents, children getting access to guns, suicide, and the false bravado that comes from thinking a gun makes you tough.
“In particular, the chart that shows the DC murder rate jumped by 73% after they passed their gun control law. I’m sure you’ve heard the conservatives’ explaination for why it jumped (I.e. only criminals have guns). What is the liberal explaination?”
Simple. The guns came from Virginia, which has just removed the law it passed because it was the number-one supplier of illegal guns: the one-handgun-a-month law. But let’s face it: the need for people to buy more than 12 handguns a year trumps trying to fight crime in DC. Maybe all the criminals will just kill themselves. If you get caught in the crossfire, well, freedom ain’t free.
I’ve seen dozens of toons by now about guns, but I still haven’t seen one that addresses mental health. Ditto for non-comics media (for lack of a better term) – doesn’t ANY one think it may be worth looking into?
The gun discharged when I picked it up, ergo I was technically the shooter. The trigger was not pulled, it discharged when the stock hit the ground, the bullet hit at just the right angle to take a chunk from my forehead, travel around my skull, and exit behind my left ear. Nobody to sue, the same as about 30% of all gun injuries, which happen as the result of accidents from the owner’s own gun. Still have a visible scar and a small dent above my left eye, which is partially blind and cannot see colors, 35 years later.
I’m going to refer people again to Elizabeth Moon’s excellent essay on how the NRA and gun owner attitudes have changed.
i would add to her thoughts. Yes, there ARE responsible gun owners. But there are also an awful lot of irresponsible gun owners. And plain damn stupid gun owners. And defending their (and everyone’s) ability to get guns with equal ease, no background check, no mandatory competence training, no registry, and to have whatever kind of ammunition they want in any quantity they want, without check or hindrance, does not benefit anyone. But more to the point — the attitude that there should not be any form of restriction or mandatory regulation of gun ownership is actually a very new thing. It’s also a blindly libertarian “you ain’t the boss o’ me” backlash against the concept of government regulation, which deals with the reality of a large society by magical wishful thinking, not pragmatism.
As a long-term strategy for society, in other words, it sucks.
Drinkers might disagree, but to me firearms have more practical value than alcoholic beverages do. But either way, given the dangers, maybe we should focus on the greater threat first? At minimum, alcohol should require:
— A state-issued permit, requiring two letters of recommendation and a signature from the local sheriff
— A safety class
— A three-day waiting period for each purchase
— Safety locks or locked safes when not in active use
Guns make it possible to kill more people faster and easier and from further away. That, too, is what they are built for. Sure, people can still use knives or club people to death with chairs or anything like that. But the bodycount ain’t nowhere gonna be the same.
I have had 6 friends/acquaintances who committed suicide by gun, 2 by other means (Razor and auto). While I know of people defending their homes with a gun, none have come to the point of a gun being fired. I have fired a gun to protect my property, but if I had been unlucky enough to hit a running target in pitch blackness, I likely would have gone to jail. It was close enough to send the person, a sexual predator as well as a thief, to another state.
“People who want to murder will find guns anywhere they can.”
Exactly my point. Why do we, as a society, just decide nothing can be done to prevent that? If we assume we can do nothing, we deserve what we get.
If every gun owner and gun seller was as responsible, honest, and cautious as we are constantly being told they are, how do criminals get guns? Someone is bypassing the minimal controls we have. I am willing to bet that I can buy a gun from the trunk of someone’s car even if I have a skull tatooed on my forehead and pointed studs on the toes of my boots, which match my orange jumpsuit.
I say we have to try to reduce gun violence. Isn’t that a noble goal? I agree we should enforce the laws we have, and get rid of laws that forbid local and state law enforcement to communicate with ATF, for example, or that require the immediate trashing of the results of background checks. The laws are not laws when they are purposely emasculated.
You also note that if they can’t find guns, they will use something else. Again, I won’t disagree. But many people will decide that taking the chance that they themselves might end up more injured, or more dead, than the people they want to shoot may make them change their minds. And sometimes the scenarios just won’t work out. Ever hear of a drive-by clubbing?
“Zipi”, I’m both a “liberal” and a 100% disabled veteran. My son is “liberal side of center”, and also after 13 years of service, a disabled retired member of the military , who served with the most “elite” force in our military for five years. I think we both can identify with “sacrifice” including the number of my friends on a wall in D.C. (over 150) and his friends lost in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere that nobodies ever heard of in the U.S..
We are both gun owners, and strongly support stronger registration of owners, and firearms, and yes, that means “background checks” (like the one I have done ever 4 years to maintain my concealed weapons permit).
I also spent almost a decade in active law enforcement, and put a lot of “bad guys” in jail. I later enforced laws and regulations for over 25 years in a less “criminal” environment.
There is NO civilian need for an Uze, MAC 9 or 10, or other high capacity magazine weapons, long or short barrel. Ten rounds is more than enough for any rifle, and pistols should be limited to 12 rounds for civilian use, though some 9 mm “side by side” can now carry 20. I would prefer limiting shotguns and rifles to the “hunting legal” five rounds capacity.
BTW, when in the military, I carried and used a number of weapons in combat, including a Model 19 Smith and Wesson REVOLVER. The Colt Model 1911 btw was considered an AUTOMATIC, because it was a “self-loading” pistol, thus, “automatic”. The distinction is different today but the nomenclature still remains that the 1911 was considered an “automatic”.
The statistic I find most accurate, and logical given reporting is that 258 fatalities were the result of “legal intervention”, which debunks that ludicrously false claim from the NRA and JBS that “millions” of crimes are prevented by “legally owned firearms”.
Yes, the vast majority of handgun deaths ARE the result of criminal activity. YES, gang members love auto and semi-auto short barrel weapons for their “drive by” shootings, and other criminal activities.
And, for Tigger and others: we have things called “cars”, which means whether in D.C. or Chicago, city-wide “gun laws” are irrelevant to the facts. A person can buy a gun, legally, within an easy drive of either of those cities, and take it into the “prohibited zone”, and use it for criminal activity, and THAT is why NATIONAL standards are needed, so that ANY jurisdiction is covered by standard law.
Yes, the NRA DID start off as a hunter organization and stressed safety, but since La PIerre and others took over, it is a cull organization pandering for gun manufacturers to put DEADLY WEAPONS freely in the hands of IDIOTS! (criminal or not!)
I hope you’re wrong, but we see evidence of this every day in the Middle East. As an aside, if you want to see what a society looks like when everyone can own as many weapons as they can get their hands on, look no further than Iraq. Look attractive?
As far as bombs go, material that can be used to make a bomb are watched carefully. I recognize that fertilizer can be used in this way, but let’s remember that we now have to show ID to be able to buy Sudafed, regardless of our age, condition, or how obviously our stuffed head is bothering us, just to keep it out of the hands of meth-makers. We will see similar restrictions if bombs become popular.
I hate to say it, but Bruce has a point. The damages done by guns has created employment and job security for a segment of society that, if you ask them, don’t want that kind of job security. However, emergency rooms, doctors, nurses, and others have benefited from gun violence. I was in the ER three weeks ago. My wife had a mini stroke. She is doing well and we have very good insurance. It was a warning and we are taking the medical and dietary measures to prevent a full blown stroke. While there, I had the opportunity to speak to staff, and there are emergencies they simply hate seeing. Drug overdoses, alcohol overdoses, shootings, and other preventable emergencies not only create more work than they want, but they also make them feel bad. Some emergencies are medical necessities for which they are please and proud to be able to assist. But shootings, dui car accidents, and cases that intelligence and/or respect could have prevented hurt their souls. ER staff are amazing people as are EMTs and 90% of police. The cartoon is sad. The accuracy of Bruce’s statement is equally sad.Respectfully,C.
“Respectful troll”, glad you spouse is doing well after an apparent TIA.
My daughter is an RN, and in the states, in a relatively small population area, they had a gunshot injury about every month, sometimes more. She’s been in New Zealand for two years now, and has yet to see a gunshot victim come into the ER, and it’s a much larger population area.
Yes, guns do contribute to keeping OUR medical community busy, and prosperous.
ghcater about 11 years ago
Stupid apple and oranges comparison, Freedom is a right that must at times be defended or it will be lost to someone or something bigger or more powerful. The overwhelming majority of the ‘cost’ on the tag is caused by criminal activity, or negligence of safety rules. The small fraction that comes from non-criminal persons defending themselves does relate to the cost of freedom regarding everyone’s right to self defense.
ARodney about 11 years ago
I’d love to see your evidence, if you have any, Ima. (Trick question — you never have any evidence.) A gun owner is much more likely to be hurt or killed by a gun than a non-gun owner. A lot of those deaths and wounds are due to domestic violence, accidents, children getting access to guns, suicide, and the false bravado that comes from thinking a gun makes you tough.
rabidhunter about 11 years ago
My facts are better than your facts. Ha, there are several factors that can distort these numbers as mentioned. So it all comes down to heresay.
nanellen about 11 years ago
scottPM, Thank you, I totally agree that the facts are distorted.
Simon_Jester about 11 years ago
Got a source for that?
You know…a source. That thing you always demand from anyone ELSE who posts a fact that YOU don’t like
I Play One On TV about 11 years ago
“In particular, the chart that shows the DC murder rate jumped by 73% after they passed their gun control law. I’m sure you’ve heard the conservatives’ explaination for why it jumped (I.e. only criminals have guns). What is the liberal explaination?”
Simple. The guns came from Virginia, which has just removed the law it passed because it was the number-one supplier of illegal guns: the one-handgun-a-month law. But let’s face it: the need for people to buy more than 12 handguns a year trumps trying to fight crime in DC. Maybe all the criminals will just kill themselves. If you get caught in the crossfire, well, freedom ain’t free.
SClark55 Premium Member about 11 years ago
I’ve seen dozens of toons by now about guns, but I still haven’t seen one that addresses mental health. Ditto for non-comics media (for lack of a better term) – doesn’t ANY one think it may be worth looking into?
Mom of 5 about 11 years ago
Just remember who pays for the NRA. The gun companies.
Fourcrows about 11 years ago
The gun discharged when I picked it up, ergo I was technically the shooter. The trigger was not pulled, it discharged when the stock hit the ground, the bullet hit at just the right angle to take a chunk from my forehead, travel around my skull, and exit behind my left ear. Nobody to sue, the same as about 30% of all gun injuries, which happen as the result of accidents from the owner’s own gun. Still have a visible scar and a small dent above my left eye, which is partially blind and cannot see colors, 35 years later.
lbatik about 11 years ago
I’m going to refer people again to Elizabeth Moon’s excellent essay on how the NRA and gun owner attitudes have changed.
i would add to her thoughts. Yes, there ARE responsible gun owners. But there are also an awful lot of irresponsible gun owners. And plain damn stupid gun owners. And defending their (and everyone’s) ability to get guns with equal ease, no background check, no mandatory competence training, no registry, and to have whatever kind of ammunition they want in any quantity they want, without check or hindrance, does not benefit anyone. But more to the point — the attitude that there should not be any form of restriction or mandatory regulation of gun ownership is actually a very new thing. It’s also a blindly libertarian “you ain’t the boss o’ me” backlash against the concept of government regulation, which deals with the reality of a large society by magical wishful thinking, not pragmatism.
As a long-term strategy for society, in other words, it sucks.
solarrhino about 11 years ago
“Alcohol linked to 75,000 U.S. deaths a year”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6089353/ns/health-addictions/t/alcohol-linked-us-deaths-year/#.UQOySG8ck2s
and
“In 2011, the latest figure available from the Centers for Disease Control,
Accidental discharge 851Suicide 19,766Homicide 11,101Undetermined Intent 222
Total: At least 31940 people died from gun injuries in 2011.
Also 258 people were killed during legal intervention, most of them due to guns.
Guns were involved, but were not the primary cause of death:-in 2 fatal accidents.-in 6 homicides.
Previous years: 2010 31,328 people2009 31,177 people2007 31,224 people 2004 29,569 people"
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_gun_deaths_are_in_the_US_every_year
Drinkers might disagree, but to me firearms have more practical value than alcoholic beverages do. But either way, given the dangers, maybe we should focus on the greater threat first? At minimum, alcohol should require:
— A state-issued permit, requiring two letters of recommendation and a signature from the local sheriff
— A safety class
— A three-day waiting period for each purchase
— Safety locks or locked safes when not in active use
— Restrictions on concealed carry
— A limit on how many shots a bottle can hold
— A limit on how fast those shots can be poured
Then we can maybe talk about more gun control.
lbatik about 11 years ago
Guns make it possible to kill more people faster and easier and from further away. That, too, is what they are built for. Sure, people can still use knives or club people to death with chairs or anything like that. But the bodycount ain’t nowhere gonna be the same.
Justice22 about 11 years ago
I have had 6 friends/acquaintances who committed suicide by gun, 2 by other means (Razor and auto). While I know of people defending their homes with a gun, none have come to the point of a gun being fired. I have fired a gun to protect my property, but if I had been unlucky enough to hit a running target in pitch blackness, I likely would have gone to jail. It was close enough to send the person, a sexual predator as well as a thief, to another state.
californicated1 about 11 years ago
“…And if you don’t give your buck-o-five, who will?”
I Play One On TV about 11 years ago
“People who want to murder will find guns anywhere they can.”
Exactly my point. Why do we, as a society, just decide nothing can be done to prevent that? If we assume we can do nothing, we deserve what we get.
If every gun owner and gun seller was as responsible, honest, and cautious as we are constantly being told they are, how do criminals get guns? Someone is bypassing the minimal controls we have. I am willing to bet that I can buy a gun from the trunk of someone’s car even if I have a skull tatooed on my forehead and pointed studs on the toes of my boots, which match my orange jumpsuit.
I say we have to try to reduce gun violence. Isn’t that a noble goal? I agree we should enforce the laws we have, and get rid of laws that forbid local and state law enforcement to communicate with ATF, for example, or that require the immediate trashing of the results of background checks. The laws are not laws when they are purposely emasculated.
You also note that if they can’t find guns, they will use something else. Again, I won’t disagree. But many people will decide that taking the chance that they themselves might end up more injured, or more dead, than the people they want to shoot may make them change their minds. And sometimes the scenarios just won’t work out. Ever hear of a drive-by clubbing?
Dtroutma about 11 years ago
“Zipi”, I’m both a “liberal” and a 100% disabled veteran. My son is “liberal side of center”, and also after 13 years of service, a disabled retired member of the military , who served with the most “elite” force in our military for five years. I think we both can identify with “sacrifice” including the number of my friends on a wall in D.C. (over 150) and his friends lost in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere that nobodies ever heard of in the U.S..
We are both gun owners, and strongly support stronger registration of owners, and firearms, and yes, that means “background checks” (like the one I have done ever 4 years to maintain my concealed weapons permit).
I also spent almost a decade in active law enforcement, and put a lot of “bad guys” in jail. I later enforced laws and regulations for over 25 years in a less “criminal” environment.
There is NO civilian need for an Uze, MAC 9 or 10, or other high capacity magazine weapons, long or short barrel. Ten rounds is more than enough for any rifle, and pistols should be limited to 12 rounds for civilian use, though some 9 mm “side by side” can now carry 20. I would prefer limiting shotguns and rifles to the “hunting legal” five rounds capacity.
BTW, when in the military, I carried and used a number of weapons in combat, including a Model 19 Smith and Wesson REVOLVER. The Colt Model 1911 btw was considered an AUTOMATIC, because it was a “self-loading” pistol, thus, “automatic”. The distinction is different today but the nomenclature still remains that the 1911 was considered an “automatic”.
The statistic I find most accurate, and logical given reporting is that 258 fatalities were the result of “legal intervention”, which debunks that ludicrously false claim from the NRA and JBS that “millions” of crimes are prevented by “legally owned firearms”.
Yes, the vast majority of handgun deaths ARE the result of criminal activity. YES, gang members love auto and semi-auto short barrel weapons for their “drive by” shootings, and other criminal activities.
And, for Tigger and others: we have things called “cars”, which means whether in D.C. or Chicago, city-wide “gun laws” are irrelevant to the facts. A person can buy a gun, legally, within an easy drive of either of those cities, and take it into the “prohibited zone”, and use it for criminal activity, and THAT is why NATIONAL standards are needed, so that ANY jurisdiction is covered by standard law.
Yes, the NRA DID start off as a hunter organization and stressed safety, but since La PIerre and others took over, it is a cull organization pandering for gun manufacturers to put DEADLY WEAPONS freely in the hands of IDIOTS! (criminal or not!)
I Play One On TV about 11 years ago
I hope you’re wrong, but we see evidence of this every day in the Middle East. As an aside, if you want to see what a society looks like when everyone can own as many weapons as they can get their hands on, look no further than Iraq. Look attractive?
As far as bombs go, material that can be used to make a bomb are watched carefully. I recognize that fertilizer can be used in this way, but let’s remember that we now have to show ID to be able to buy Sudafed, regardless of our age, condition, or how obviously our stuffed head is bothering us, just to keep it out of the hands of meth-makers. We will see similar restrictions if bombs become popular.
chazandru about 11 years ago
I hate to say it, but Bruce has a point. The damages done by guns has created employment and job security for a segment of society that, if you ask them, don’t want that kind of job security. However, emergency rooms, doctors, nurses, and others have benefited from gun violence. I was in the ER three weeks ago. My wife had a mini stroke. She is doing well and we have very good insurance. It was a warning and we are taking the medical and dietary measures to prevent a full blown stroke. While there, I had the opportunity to speak to staff, and there are emergencies they simply hate seeing. Drug overdoses, alcohol overdoses, shootings, and other preventable emergencies not only create more work than they want, but they also make them feel bad. Some emergencies are medical necessities for which they are please and proud to be able to assist. But shootings, dui car accidents, and cases that intelligence and/or respect could have prevented hurt their souls. ER staff are amazing people as are EMTs and 90% of police. The cartoon is sad. The accuracy of Bruce’s statement is equally sad.Respectfully,C.
Dtroutma about 11 years ago
“Respectful troll”, glad you spouse is doing well after an apparent TIA.
My daughter is an RN, and in the states, in a relatively small population area, they had a gunshot injury about every month, sometimes more. She’s been in New Zealand for two years now, and has yet to see a gunshot victim come into the ER, and it’s a much larger population area.
Yes, guns do contribute to keeping OUR medical community busy, and prosperous.