excellent——Ramirez exposes the shallow U.S. C-I-C.fact=the terrorist prisoners used the Koran to pass Jihad messages….the abuse in the situation was Islamic mis-use of their “holy” book….which negated the “holy-ness” the brainwashed Muslims base protests and killings upon .-US and NATO people are killed and bodies mutilated…with very little retaliation from Westerners….-WHY do our leaders apologize to out-of-control radicals?Weakness promotes more terror against us.
Hitler had Jews. Bush, Cheney, Ramirez and their followers have Muslims. Anyone recall how “bent” Jews get if you destroy a torah? Anyone really think about Santorum and his “radicalism”?
WE are the ones who are invaders in Afghanistan, it is therefore an onus on US to be on “BEST BEHAVIOR”, not just “good enough to get by”. Bush succeeded not at all in “winning friends and influencing people”, but his wars DID inflame them. Only a small percentage of Muslims are “Arab”. Only a small minority of them get THAT bent out of shape by a physical destruction of the Quran, so WHY do we “tick off” the few that do?
Remember the threats, and the number of people who felt killing Maplethorpe would be “justified” retribution for his “art”?
Yup, right, let those “cooler heads” on the right prevail, spend a few trillion more dollars on senseless wars, and kill a few hundred thousand more of “them” and a few thousand more of our own, because “we’re tough and don’t apologize, for anything”.
Ramirez will undoubtedly get the response he wants from the “righties” here- more ignorance and “pride”: in their stupidity.
only the Korans with Jihad messages (“intel”) were burned.our NATO people did not go on a rampage of raiding mosques or homes and burning un-marked Koran books (or bombing or killing & beheading)!very little MSM reports about the Moslem crusades in every country around the world where Christians are being persecuted, churches burned and believers made slaves or killed! and Islamic radicals are doing bombing and destruction and murder regularly against Jews in Israel while Jewish officials are targets of assassination whereever they serve as Israeli representatives.-for poor ignorant “trout”….Afghanistan gave haven to Taliban who gave training & support to Al Qaeda to plan and do the evil 9/11/01 WTC and Pentagon and 3rd target murders in the USA. The U.S. did not willy-nilly go and “start a war” —-the real C-I-C Bush led a coalition response to a war begun against us by Terrorists.
1. If you are going to burn Quran with notes on the margins, be smart enough to make sure they are totally destroyed, and don’t fall into the hands of the “locals”.
2. The “Taliban” running Afghanistan told us they didn’t know where bin Laden was. We claimed they did. Then, it took eight years for US to “find” him. Likewise we “KNEW” exactly where Saddam’s WMD’s were, eight years later we’ve found NONE!
3. Again, WE invaded THEIR country under totally false pretense to get rid of one government WE CREATED (with the ISI), and replace it with ANOTHER government, led by an oil company guy, that WE created!
When you are in the home, or the nation, of a “host” and step on their toes, it’s wise, and polite, to apologize for the act. Alexander Hamilton might have been wiser to apologize, but he didn’t. Just as his desire for a king or very strong central government (Federalist) didn’t actually “work out”, neither did his argument with Burr.
If you are going to burn Korans, do a complete job. These are fanatics who have nothing to lose. They hate the presence of any foreigners on their soil. They do not want our reforms or our help. It is time to get our men and women out of their. Karzai has no legitimacy in the eyes of the Afghan people. He was chosen as the leader of the Afghan people by an international conference in Bonn, Germany. He then rigged the election in 2009.Let the Afghan people decide their own future. If the want to live in mud huts with an economy based on poppy exports, so be it.We have our own problems at home.
Reverse the scenario – have them burn a Protestant or Catholic Bible and then look at the ensuing outrage. The apology was pefectly in order – it takes a big man to apologize.
I fail to find a Ramirez ID of the cemetery being Arlington, but no matter where our military dead are buried….the fact is that Islamic radicals have murdered many of our Liberators bringing Freedom and self-government to Iraq and Afghanistan….and will keep on murdering because they are brainwashed from birth to kill “infidels” for Allah.-where is news documenting that Korans other than the prisoner’s copies with terrorist messages added were burned?the killing revenge is in day 6 or 7 today…..any excuse….but worldwide no excuse is given….Islamists just kill Christians and Jews and other non-Islamics and burn homes, businesses and worship buildings….and radical clergy continue to preach violent Jihad from mosques…..sort of a religious mafia…
Ramirez again just insults out troops we’ve lost, in a war we never should have started. The simple fact is, Qurans have nothing to do with the real issue, the only REAL ISSUE is: WE INVADED THEIR COUNTRY!
Interestingly for “background”, the propaganda of the time tried to make Viet Nam about fighting “atheist Communism”, when indeed most of the enemy were Buddhist or variant, and definitely NOT “Communists”. They wanted their country back from French and foreign “rule”, even under puppet regimes.
That is exactly what Afghans want, and Iraqis, and most of the people in the Middle East now saddled with “corporate rule” coming from oil companies in control of their nations. That same applies to west Africa, and it certainly isn’t over there yet either.
I’ll never understand goober logic: We started a war, we defiled their religious teachings, we kill them, and Ramirez see’s the President “dishonoring” the troop’s memory? WTF?
B-52’s carpet bombing Afghanistan. Blowing out cave systems the people have lived in for millennia in a totally “blown” operation to locate bin Laden, abandoned after much damage was done. WE flattened their limited infrastructure, blew up their bridges (the few they had), and flattened many cities, AS invaders, then installed a SECOND lousy “government” they did NOT WANT! WE violated all their religious and ethnic traditions and beliefs. WE imposed OUR WILL on a tribal culture that despises ALL western, and eastern invaders to THEIR lands.
In Iraq, with “shock and awe”, we did worse, stupidly.
I"ve been attacked before for mentioning I am a disabled vet, as is my son after serving in our “current” wars and the “war on terror” in places I cannot mention, even though he is out and no longer in those “secret” groups.
I killed people, unintentionally, who were totally innocent. Not only that, they were actually ON OUR SIDE! Yes, in war “sh**” happens, all too often. “Free fire zones” in Viet Nam were ridiculous, as were “body counts”. Afghanistan became a “free fire zone”, after we set out to remove the government WE put in place. Now we defend another UNPOPULAR regime in that country.
Discussing the other night with my son how the first time someone tries to kill you, it’s kind of “exciting”, but after it becomes “routine”, you adapt. Part of that adjustment involves losing a bit of your humanity, such is war.
Those who hate war the most, are those who were GOOD AT IT! Cowards and REMF types are the “war lovers” who’ve never seen much, or anything, of the results, and never actively “participated” in the killing, or the real fear, and adaptation, of being the target, repeatedly!
The failure to honor and respect your enemy, especially when it is on THEIR LAND the war is occurring, shows up the idiots and liars in our midst, seeking glory and valor, unearned, that they covet in their cowardice.
“W”, and Cheney, Wolfowitz, Feith, Perle, and all the others who sent us to our biggest mistakes, and frauds in history, Afghanistan and Iraq, are “poster children” for the hate of cowards. Their “fans” are even bigger scum!
Absolutely. I know we can’t go doing stupid stunts like burning Korans and urinating on bodies. Those are individuals who are being retards, and just asking to create tension in the region. We make mistakes, and we are called butcherers, yet when insurgents massacre people with roadside bombs and torture/murder people they are hailed as martyrs and heroes. The double standard applied by anti-war leftists is nauseating. Our rules of engagement have gotten so retarded that we can’t shoot at someone who is actually shooting at us unless we can confirm that we are going to hit the person who is shooting at us. That’s why they fire like cowards from inside crowds, and then drop their weapons and walk off whistling a merry little tune knowing that we can’t do squat to them.We have people all over the world who burn our flag and yet we don’t do anything because we consider it a freedom of speech thing. If people burnt a bible or a cross (That’s been done, by the way) or a flag or anything in the US, it’d be “Hey, that’s rude, but it’s your right.” But because we’re there it’s suddenly an international incident that our apologizer in chief does his apologetic tour stepping on the graves of those who laid down their lives for this country and those who are unappreciative, like Canuck. Trout, I understand what you’re getting at. However, I disagree that the population didn’t want a new government that was fair to its people. It probably didn’t know what it wanted. I believe they were (as a collective population) suffering from stockholm syndrome. When all you know is daily abuse and a dictatorial regime, you cease trying for something else. But we came in there and despite our bombings, we improved their infrastructure and helped them recover and enabled them to have their first free elections. We didn’t pick the “dictator.” We enabled them to pick their own leaders.So… I agree. Those of us who have seen war hate it so. I have been there. And it’s something we live with for the rest of our lives. If I had a preference, I’d do nothing but training and never have to shoot anyone. But that is not the nature of our world as it is today. And people like you, your son, and I all have to live with the aftermath of our actions. And the fact that people like Canuck tromp on the graves of the true heroes (Those who bled out in a foreign country, for the uninitiated) angers me to no end.
I feel no guilt nor shame for the things that I have done. Any actions I have taken in combat have revolved around doing the right thing for my family first, then the country, then the Corps. My family needs me to come home, so I’m willing to do anything to ensure that. I detest myself for having to be that selfish, but in a wartime environment it’s us or them. There is no “let’s sit and talk.” As one of my generals said when speaking to a tribal leader, “I come in peace, I didn’t bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you fuck with me, I’ll kill you all.” – Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leadersWe want to talk, we crave peace, but we accept violence. To some people, that is the only language they speak. And for you to live naively thinking all people will be willing to sit and talk is absurd. I love my family, I love my country, and I love my Corps. And I will do anything to protect them. I’m willing to bet that you do not have the same core values that call you to protect someone other than yourself. And for that, you have my pity. I would rather carry the burden of having done something in defense of those three groups than live my life like you: A coward. Canuck, you are now forever on my ignore list.Vernon: I think we should extricate ourselves from the situation in Afghanistan, but the timetable should be determined by those on the ground, not those in a cushy office in Congress or the White House. We ESPECIALLY shouldn’t be broadcasting our timeline. It may not be our responsibility to build up these economies, but history has shown it reaps great future dividends. Look at Japan and Germany as examples of us crushing them and rebuilding them. Japan is now a staunch ally, as is Germany. Imagine if we had a strong supporter in the middle east. As for the “We did it for oil” argument… I don’t buy it. If we wanted to do it for oil, we had the militaristic capabilities to do it. That, and we have yet to see any kickbacks from the Iraqi or Afghani governments. Would Congress be griping over the cost of the wars if we didn’t have to pay for them? I think not.Human, I’m going to call BS on that. Paid killer? If you were special ops, you would know better than to advertise that, and if you were military and discharged honorably, you wouldn’t talk like that. Try coming back to reality. Your conspiracy theories are forcing me to get my waders out.
It’s about attempting to display good will. I’d be lying if a lot of troops love the fact that we are there, doing that and the enemy just blows it back up. It’s frustrating work. Yes, the situation is different, but I still think that any time someone improves another person’s live, that other person should at least have a modicum of appreciation for the efforts being exerted by the giver. As for the announcing, I know it’s a bad idea. It’s like saying to Hitler for the Normandy Beach invasion “We’re landing here, and this is when we’re doing it!” Had they known when the landing was to occur, I guarantee we would have failed to take the beaches. It’s no different… telegraphing your moves is bad idea regardless of the situation. “I’m going to punch you in the face with my right hand in two seconds!” Unless you’re Chuck Norris, doing that spells failure. I don’t mind doing it secretly, saying when we should pull our troops out. But announcing it to the world… since when has that ever been a wise military strategy?
disgustedtaxpayer about 12 years ago
excellent——Ramirez exposes the shallow U.S. C-I-C.fact=the terrorist prisoners used the Koran to pass Jihad messages….the abuse in the situation was Islamic mis-use of their “holy” book….which negated the “holy-ness” the brainwashed Muslims base protests and killings upon .-US and NATO people are killed and bodies mutilated…with very little retaliation from Westerners….-WHY do our leaders apologize to out-of-control radicals?Weakness promotes more terror against us.
Dtroutma about 12 years ago
Hitler had Jews. Bush, Cheney, Ramirez and their followers have Muslims. Anyone recall how “bent” Jews get if you destroy a torah? Anyone really think about Santorum and his “radicalism”?
WE are the ones who are invaders in Afghanistan, it is therefore an onus on US to be on “BEST BEHAVIOR”, not just “good enough to get by”. Bush succeeded not at all in “winning friends and influencing people”, but his wars DID inflame them. Only a small percentage of Muslims are “Arab”. Only a small minority of them get THAT bent out of shape by a physical destruction of the Quran, so WHY do we “tick off” the few that do?
Remember the threats, and the number of people who felt killing Maplethorpe would be “justified” retribution for his “art”?
Yup, right, let those “cooler heads” on the right prevail, spend a few trillion more dollars on senseless wars, and kill a few hundred thousand more of “them” and a few thousand more of our own, because “we’re tough and don’t apologize, for anything”.
Ramirez will undoubtedly get the response he wants from the “righties” here- more ignorance and “pride”: in their stupidity.
disgustedtaxpayer about 12 years ago
only the Korans with Jihad messages (“intel”) were burned.our NATO people did not go on a rampage of raiding mosques or homes and burning un-marked Koran books (or bombing or killing & beheading)!very little MSM reports about the Moslem crusades in every country around the world where Christians are being persecuted, churches burned and believers made slaves or killed! and Islamic radicals are doing bombing and destruction and murder regularly against Jews in Israel while Jewish officials are targets of assassination whereever they serve as Israeli representatives.-for poor ignorant “trout”….Afghanistan gave haven to Taliban who gave training & support to Al Qaeda to plan and do the evil 9/11/01 WTC and Pentagon and 3rd target murders in the USA. The U.S. did not willy-nilly go and “start a war” —-the real C-I-C Bush led a coalition response to a war begun against us by Terrorists.
Dtroutma about 12 years ago
1. If you are going to burn Quran with notes on the margins, be smart enough to make sure they are totally destroyed, and don’t fall into the hands of the “locals”.
2. The “Taliban” running Afghanistan told us they didn’t know where bin Laden was. We claimed they did. Then, it took eight years for US to “find” him. Likewise we “KNEW” exactly where Saddam’s WMD’s were, eight years later we’ve found NONE!
3. Again, WE invaded THEIR country under totally false pretense to get rid of one government WE CREATED (with the ISI), and replace it with ANOTHER government, led by an oil company guy, that WE created!
When you are in the home, or the nation, of a “host” and step on their toes, it’s wise, and polite, to apologize for the act. Alexander Hamilton might have been wiser to apologize, but he didn’t. Just as his desire for a king or very strong central government (Federalist) didn’t actually “work out”, neither did his argument with Burr.
BE THIS GUY about 12 years ago
If you are going to burn Korans, do a complete job. These are fanatics who have nothing to lose. They hate the presence of any foreigners on their soil. They do not want our reforms or our help. It is time to get our men and women out of their. Karzai has no legitimacy in the eyes of the Afghan people. He was chosen as the leader of the Afghan people by an international conference in Bonn, Germany. He then rigged the election in 2009.Let the Afghan people decide their own future. If the want to live in mud huts with an economy based on poppy exports, so be it.We have our own problems at home.
BE THIS GUY about 12 years ago
Correction: it is time to get our men and women out of there.
lesmcf about 12 years ago
Reverse the scenario – have them burn a Protestant or Catholic Bible and then look at the ensuing outrage. The apology was pefectly in order – it takes a big man to apologize.
disgustedtaxpayer about 12 years ago
I fail to find a Ramirez ID of the cemetery being Arlington, but no matter where our military dead are buried….the fact is that Islamic radicals have murdered many of our Liberators bringing Freedom and self-government to Iraq and Afghanistan….and will keep on murdering because they are brainwashed from birth to kill “infidels” for Allah.-where is news documenting that Korans other than the prisoner’s copies with terrorist messages added were burned?the killing revenge is in day 6 or 7 today…..any excuse….but worldwide no excuse is given….Islamists just kill Christians and Jews and other non-Islamics and burn homes, businesses and worship buildings….and radical clergy continue to preach violent Jihad from mosques…..sort of a religious mafia…
Dtroutma about 12 years ago
Ramirez again just insults out troops we’ve lost, in a war we never should have started. The simple fact is, Qurans have nothing to do with the real issue, the only REAL ISSUE is: WE INVADED THEIR COUNTRY!
Interestingly for “background”, the propaganda of the time tried to make Viet Nam about fighting “atheist Communism”, when indeed most of the enemy were Buddhist or variant, and definitely NOT “Communists”. They wanted their country back from French and foreign “rule”, even under puppet regimes.
That is exactly what Afghans want, and Iraqis, and most of the people in the Middle East now saddled with “corporate rule” coming from oil companies in control of their nations. That same applies to west Africa, and it certainly isn’t over there yet either.
d_legendary1 about 12 years ago
I’ll never understand goober logic: We started a war, we defiled their religious teachings, we kill them, and Ramirez see’s the President “dishonoring” the troop’s memory? WTF?
zekedog55 about 12 years ago
Fennec! We need your balanced sensibilities to return!
I hope you still read along…if so, Hello; hope you’re doing well—I (and many others) look forward to hearing from you, the sooner the better.
Dtroutma about 12 years ago
B-52’s carpet bombing Afghanistan. Blowing out cave systems the people have lived in for millennia in a totally “blown” operation to locate bin Laden, abandoned after much damage was done. WE flattened their limited infrastructure, blew up their bridges (the few they had), and flattened many cities, AS invaders, then installed a SECOND lousy “government” they did NOT WANT! WE violated all their religious and ethnic traditions and beliefs. WE imposed OUR WILL on a tribal culture that despises ALL western, and eastern invaders to THEIR lands.
In Iraq, with “shock and awe”, we did worse, stupidly.
I"ve been attacked before for mentioning I am a disabled vet, as is my son after serving in our “current” wars and the “war on terror” in places I cannot mention, even though he is out and no longer in those “secret” groups.
I killed people, unintentionally, who were totally innocent. Not only that, they were actually ON OUR SIDE! Yes, in war “sh**” happens, all too often. “Free fire zones” in Viet Nam were ridiculous, as were “body counts”. Afghanistan became a “free fire zone”, after we set out to remove the government WE put in place. Now we defend another UNPOPULAR regime in that country.
Discussing the other night with my son how the first time someone tries to kill you, it’s kind of “exciting”, but after it becomes “routine”, you adapt. Part of that adjustment involves losing a bit of your humanity, such is war.
Those who hate war the most, are those who were GOOD AT IT! Cowards and REMF types are the “war lovers” who’ve never seen much, or anything, of the results, and never actively “participated” in the killing, or the real fear, and adaptation, of being the target, repeatedly!
The failure to honor and respect your enemy, especially when it is on THEIR LAND the war is occurring, shows up the idiots and liars in our midst, seeking glory and valor, unearned, that they covet in their cowardice.
“W”, and Cheney, Wolfowitz, Feith, Perle, and all the others who sent us to our biggest mistakes, and frauds in history, Afghanistan and Iraq, are “poster children” for the hate of cowards. Their “fans” are even bigger scum!
Wraithkin about 12 years ago
Absolutely. I know we can’t go doing stupid stunts like burning Korans and urinating on bodies. Those are individuals who are being retards, and just asking to create tension in the region. We make mistakes, and we are called butcherers, yet when insurgents massacre people with roadside bombs and torture/murder people they are hailed as martyrs and heroes. The double standard applied by anti-war leftists is nauseating. Our rules of engagement have gotten so retarded that we can’t shoot at someone who is actually shooting at us unless we can confirm that we are going to hit the person who is shooting at us. That’s why they fire like cowards from inside crowds, and then drop their weapons and walk off whistling a merry little tune knowing that we can’t do squat to them.We have people all over the world who burn our flag and yet we don’t do anything because we consider it a freedom of speech thing. If people burnt a bible or a cross (That’s been done, by the way) or a flag or anything in the US, it’d be “Hey, that’s rude, but it’s your right.” But because we’re there it’s suddenly an international incident that our apologizer in chief does his apologetic tour stepping on the graves of those who laid down their lives for this country and those who are unappreciative, like Canuck. Trout, I understand what you’re getting at. However, I disagree that the population didn’t want a new government that was fair to its people. It probably didn’t know what it wanted. I believe they were (as a collective population) suffering from stockholm syndrome. When all you know is daily abuse and a dictatorial regime, you cease trying for something else. But we came in there and despite our bombings, we improved their infrastructure and helped them recover and enabled them to have their first free elections. We didn’t pick the “dictator.” We enabled them to pick their own leaders.So… I agree. Those of us who have seen war hate it so. I have been there. And it’s something we live with for the rest of our lives. If I had a preference, I’d do nothing but training and never have to shoot anyone. But that is not the nature of our world as it is today. And people like you, your son, and I all have to live with the aftermath of our actions. And the fact that people like Canuck tromp on the graves of the true heroes (Those who bled out in a foreign country, for the uninitiated) angers me to no end.
Wraithkin about 12 years ago
I feel no guilt nor shame for the things that I have done. Any actions I have taken in combat have revolved around doing the right thing for my family first, then the country, then the Corps. My family needs me to come home, so I’m willing to do anything to ensure that. I detest myself for having to be that selfish, but in a wartime environment it’s us or them. There is no “let’s sit and talk.” As one of my generals said when speaking to a tribal leader, “I come in peace, I didn’t bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you fuck with me, I’ll kill you all.” – Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leadersWe want to talk, we crave peace, but we accept violence. To some people, that is the only language they speak. And for you to live naively thinking all people will be willing to sit and talk is absurd. I love my family, I love my country, and I love my Corps. And I will do anything to protect them. I’m willing to bet that you do not have the same core values that call you to protect someone other than yourself. And for that, you have my pity. I would rather carry the burden of having done something in defense of those three groups than live my life like you: A coward. Canuck, you are now forever on my ignore list.Vernon: I think we should extricate ourselves from the situation in Afghanistan, but the timetable should be determined by those on the ground, not those in a cushy office in Congress or the White House. We ESPECIALLY shouldn’t be broadcasting our timeline. It may not be our responsibility to build up these economies, but history has shown it reaps great future dividends. Look at Japan and Germany as examples of us crushing them and rebuilding them. Japan is now a staunch ally, as is Germany. Imagine if we had a strong supporter in the middle east. As for the “We did it for oil” argument… I don’t buy it. If we wanted to do it for oil, we had the militaristic capabilities to do it. That, and we have yet to see any kickbacks from the Iraqi or Afghani governments. Would Congress be griping over the cost of the wars if we didn’t have to pay for them? I think not.Human, I’m going to call BS on that. Paid killer? If you were special ops, you would know better than to advertise that, and if you were military and discharged honorably, you wouldn’t talk like that. Try coming back to reality. Your conspiracy theories are forcing me to get my waders out.
Wraithkin about 12 years ago
It’s about attempting to display good will. I’d be lying if a lot of troops love the fact that we are there, doing that and the enemy just blows it back up. It’s frustrating work. Yes, the situation is different, but I still think that any time someone improves another person’s live, that other person should at least have a modicum of appreciation for the efforts being exerted by the giver. As for the announcing, I know it’s a bad idea. It’s like saying to Hitler for the Normandy Beach invasion “We’re landing here, and this is when we’re doing it!” Had they known when the landing was to occur, I guarantee we would have failed to take the beaches. It’s no different… telegraphing your moves is bad idea regardless of the situation. “I’m going to punch you in the face with my right hand in two seconds!” Unless you’re Chuck Norris, doing that spells failure. I don’t mind doing it secretly, saying when we should pull our troops out. But announcing it to the world… since when has that ever been a wise military strategy?