Ted Rall for April 23, 2009

“Milli Vanilli and Vanilla Ice are meeting in Manila for Nilla Wafers at a showing of Thoroughly Modern Millie!”

And what exactly did John McSame tell the Vietnamese?

It is notable that McCain confessed to a LIE! I do NOT blame, or in any way condemn him for what happened back then. How anyone can stand in a joint session of Congress, beside John McCain, and give their blessing to what happened to him, happening to others, THAT I condemn.

McCain broke both his arms when he parachuted out of his badly damaged aircraft.

He was saved by local Vietnamese and beaten up a bit I guess (how would you feel if the Luftwaffe bombed your city and you saw crew bailing out?).

He was never tortured. Instead, he got medical treatment in exchange for spilling his guts (and being reprogrammed of course).

It’s sad to hear Americans debating torture. I remember, when I was growing up, we were considered the “good guys”. The only low-lifes who tortured prisoners were those “godless commie rats!” How did we let ourselves become the same criminals we are supposed to be fighting against?

American fascism: an old vintage in new bottles.

I agree Bill. It is sad that the debate is “how much?” rather than “how revolting is it?” If only we were arguing over how much it makes us want to vomit.

W ushered in an era of rewarding lawlessness in ALL aspects of American life.

I agree, Bill. That’s how I saw america until I was about fifteen (in 2000).

The simple fact it that torture is not a useful interrogation tool. Torture was invented to get people to sign false confessions. The use of torture on this scale and for the reasons given is pure sadism on the part of Cheney and the rest. Any other explanation is a lie.

We know who did it and who gave the permission. Investigating and prosecuting perpetrators is a 6 mo. operation, at most. For those found guilty, let them be ‘interrogated’ (on CNN) to tell us if it really is torture or not.

To enter the argument of whether torture works is to toss aside one’s basic morality. It ends any battle between right and wrong as you have joined the ‘evil-doers’ in being evil. To whine about danger and safety as a reason to sanction inflicting pain on human beings who may or may not even be guilty of anything is to become a monster. These people who act as if they are so pragmatic and wise after 9/11 are simply timid immoral dupes. The fact that TV shows have gone out of their way to justify torture for quite a while should say a lot about the real situation.

When you sacrifice your ideals for safety at any cost, you no longer deserve freedom or safety.

“When you sacrifice your ideals for safety at any cost, you no longer deserve freedom or safety.”

You also END UP with neither…

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

You Lib geniuses have impressed me again. Now solve this one( and we have the luxury of going back to square one now…) How do you fight Radical Fundamentalist Islamic murderers (who hide amongst oblivious and even sympathetic moderates”) who saw the heads off of Liberal Jewish-American jounalists while chanting “Allah be praised!”. The next time we have a 9/11 we’ll need your heroic insight.

FearPup, we start with basic principles. First, we use our intelligence and act on what it tells us (rather than manipulate it to achieve our pre-existing goals). Second, we arrest those who threaten us (as indicated by the intelligence gathered). Third, we commit ourselves to using only standard, internationally accepted interrogation techniques. Fourth, we add that information to already existing intelligence and continue to pay attention. But most importantly, we don’t fall prey to our own fear and in doing so abandon our souls.

“How do you fight Radical Fundamentalist Islamic murderers”

By attacking the people who attacked us, not by attacking an uninvolved bystander like Iraq. You stop their ability to launch further attacks and then address the root causes of what motivates them to attack us. The previous Administration thought that all they had to do to make us safer was to turn the US into a Police State.

ComradeSD: It’s called the rule of law. You should try it some time.

The US is obligated to be the good guys because we exist based only on a set of abstract principles about the rights and dignity of human beings. When we fail to live up to those principles we strike at the heart of what it means to be America.

But many other countries, China, say, or France, exist based on historical momentum. France was France when ruled by the Louies, when guillotining people, when conquering Europe, when colonizing Africa, when occupied by the Germans, and in their current democracy. It’s culture, language, traditions, etc that make France France or China, China, not philosophical or political principles.

Thus, if we don’t live up to our principles we are being unpatriotic and weakening our nation to a greater degree than many other countries.