Ted Rall for November 10, 2010

Christian, n: One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the needs of his neighbor. One who follows the teachings of Christ in so far as they are not inconsistent with a life of sin.

I dreamed I stood upon a hill and lo! The godly multitudes walked to and fro Beneath in Sabbath garments fitly clad, With pious mien, appropriately sad, While all the church bills made a solemn din – a fire-alarm to those who lived in sin. Then I saw gazing thoughtfully below, With tranquil face, upon that holy show A tall, spare figure in a robe of white, Whose eyes diffused a melancholy light “God keep you stranger,” I exclaimed, “You are No doubt (your habit shows it) from afar; And yet I entertain the hope that you, Like these good people are a Christian too.” He raised his eyes and with a look so stern It made me with a thousand blushes burn Replied – his manner with disdain was spiced: “What! I, a Christian? No, indeed! I’m Christ.”

– Ambrose Bierce

That’s a straw man. No Christians say that.

Whether God is or is not is entirely independent of our ability to perceive or understand God.

I think therefore God is?

But really: Poorly edited anthology of hack writers!

Ted Rall is the best!

@human:

*”Mr. Rall has a couple false assumptions. 1st is that it is a single title or book. The Bible is a collection of books and not just one.”*

Actually, I do think he pointed that out when he referred to “a poorly edited collection of hack writers.”

”2nd is that all these Bibles or collection of books are the same. They are not and different factions fight over wording of the individual books and which books are to be in the book of books ‘the Bible‘”

Actually, as many different factions of Christians as there are, there are many who will very literally swear that their favorite translation is the definitive version. Google “KJV” or “King James Version,” for instance, and I’m sure you’ll find a number of true believers who will insist it is the “Bible” God intended. Shoot, the Mormons even wrote a sequel to it, also in King James-ish language.

”3rd is that there is a God that gives a God D@mn about it. By virtue of there being so many different religions and so many different ‘Christians’ many of whom do not believe the others are really ‘Christians’ is pretty much proof that if there is a God it does not care or is unwilling or unable to do anything to reduce tensions.”

Touche.

I do have to ask though, what brought this on? Okay, besides that we have a lot of people in this country who call themselves “Christian” who seem poised to make this country into a sort of “Afghanistan of the West…”

Ted says (in the Rallblog): “Just a random thought about a system of belief we’re supposed to pay attention to.” Not being a Christian, I hope his thoughts revert to politics real soon. Is there a basis for human sacrifice in the Constitution?

One of the very first court cases involving bibles in schools was the Edgerton Bible Case, which was litigated when a group of Catholic parents of public school students objected to their children being taught out of the KJV instead of the then-Catholic-approved Douay Bible. The Wisconsin Supreme Court agreed with the Catholics and removed bible instruction from the state’s public schools. This all happened between 1886 and 1890.

Rall gets biblical!

Genesis 22, for those not aware, is a tremendous passage full of meaning and mystery. It is an amazing picture of the sacrifice that was to be committed 1,700 years later.

The Bible advocates only one human sacrifice, that of Jesus Christ on the cross. No others will be accepted, and no others are asked for.

I understand why Rall calls Christians geeks, but it is a snap judgment.

@human

Your third point is a red herring. Rall explicitly unhinges the “hack writers” from a metaphysical being by calling it fiction. The only reference to god is “Mean and Vengeful God” as he/she appears as a character in the Old Testament. You can’t have a book club without talking about one of the main characters.

You are basically on the same team here.

I prefer to take my ethical grounding from the acronym, WWJCD?

What would Johnny Cash Do?

@human- No, Rall has it right: ‘…poorly edited anthology of hack writers’

The Bible is a bunch of writings with a political axe to grind, put together by group of people with a political axe to grind.

Call it what you like, just don’t call it ‘the word of god’ It’s an insult to words and gods.

One thing I am thankful to Richard Dawkins for - he helps keep the uninformed weak-thinking athiests out of the churches.

Adding to the discussion..

according to Islam ..a muslim is not considered one if he/she doesn’t believe in the Bible..(but at least we are warned that this book was distorted and changed by people through out history).

Thank God..

I love deep philosophical discussions of religion on the funny pages. No god worthy of worship would even suggest human sacrifice. Abraham was trying to compete with the followers of Baal. It has been said (by their enemies who wrote the history books) that the kings & priests gained power by sacrificing their sons to Baal. (Works best if they’re grown sons sacrificed in combat, defeating your enemies.) I think that Abraham wanted to try it & built his alter, & prepared to sacrifice his son. (Muslims differ with Christians & Jews over which son.) None Other Than The One said something which translates into my English as; “We don’t play that.” Then a ram wandered by. Jesus did NOT say, on the cross, “Accept this sacrifice to atone for the sins of the world,” because The One Worthy of Worship would have responded; “We don’t play that.” What he said was closer to; they’re your kids, you kinda gotta forgive ‘em. Jesus died because the Roman military governor & the Roman approved “King of Judea” needed to put down a budding rebellion, & this rabbi stirred up the temple when he was 12 & busted the money changers in the temple when he was about 30 & had the integrity & lineage to claim prophetic right. Forgiveness is between you & whoever you hope will forgive you & what you’ve done lately to make up for it. I’m guessing that saying “Your boy done good,” ain’t quite enough. Blood doesn’t make things Holy, holes make things bloody. This is the point, where I’ve precisely defined my heresy, where I usually get burned at the stake. It gets old after a few lifetimes. The powers that be gave me this timeslot as a vacation. Wish you were here.

Ted Rall is probably loving all this discussion. Tell the truth, piss ‘em off and keep rolling. I love it.

@ChukLitl

“Blood doen’t make things Holy, holes make things bloody.”

That’s good. May I borrow that?

Tommy1733 said, about 3 hours ago

One thing I am thankful to Richard Dawkins for - he helps keep the uninformed weak-thinking athiests out of the churches.

Well, if you don’t need the crutch anymore, might as well get out of the way and let someone else who needs it use it, right?

One thing atheists have over the “faithful” is that they seem to have a better grasp for the facts of life: bad things happen; people die. They don’t need to fabricate some fairy tale to comfort themselves over the loss of a loved one (“they’re in a better place”).

As an agnostic, I’m rarely surprised by the evil or the good people do. I know “good” people do bad things, and “bad” people sometimes do things that actually benefit others.

Did religion teach me that? No. The best that my Protestantism taught me is that we’re all evil and undeserving of God’s “grace,” yet somehow, we receive it despite “His” history of smiting evil doers (say, by flood or by turning them into salt).

No god worthy of worship would even suggest human sacrifice.

Whereas the Goddess who begat them all demands it.

So much religion, so little spirituality.

According to people who believe the Bible literally, what was good for the Middle East thre millenias ago MUST be good for the whole World in the 21st century.

….right….

Sooky Rottweiler says;

I believe in Moon Wolf And I believe that Moon Wolf Believes in Sooky That’s me

(musical Fur, from The Artsy Channel)

On the seventh day he rested. Too bad today the “religious right” which is neither, won’t let it. That goes for all the bible thumpers, including radical Jews and Muslims. All the fighting starts with the same few pages of mythology.

There must be a power greater than “Man”- but formless and certainly not Don Knotts, Steve Reeves, Charleton Heston, or Peewee Herman- that “in my image” junk started WAY too much trouble-especially for women.

“I love deep philosophical discussions of religion on the funny pages. ”

How apropos.

I always thought playing Moses affected Charlton Heston’s mind.

One of many reasons I can’t stand religious flicks. It takes an actor with a gigantic ego to be on the set and say “I’m Jesus/Moses/Abraham/Muhammad/Buddha”.

What most people don’t realize is that the King James version was commission by the King of England in order to legitimize his claim that his reign was sanctioned by God.

The Bible is fiction but it was the single most influence on western culture for hundreds of years.

If only people could study the Bible without believing it.

“For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.” (Matthew 7:14)

As can be seen above, not too many above have found it.

^What makes you so sure that YOU did?

@HabaneroBuck “Genesis 22, for those not aware, is a tremendous passage full of meaning and mystery. It is an amazing picture of the sacrifice that was to be committed 1,700 years later. The Bible advocates only one human sacrifice, that of Jesus Christ on the cross. No others will be accepted, and no others are asked for.”

Umm…so what about in Judges 11:29-39 when Jephthah sacrificed his daughter…. that was a human sacrifice no?

“I’m an atheist, my family isn’t Christian, and I just don’t feel it. … I have no problem with the 10 Commandments…”

If you’re an atheist you’d certainly have no use for the first few: Why may we not make graven images? Why may we not take anybody’s Name in Vain, if we want? Whose business is it if I keep Saturdays holy or not? (Although having no gods AT ALL is consistent with “no gods before Me”). Only a few of the 10 are worthy of being Commandments in a pluralistic socitey: Don’t kill, don’t steal, don’t lie about people, and while adultery isn’t illegal I consider it unwise. But of course, these principles have been around a lot longer than monotheism…

“… or the fact that this Country was founded on Judeo-Christian law.”

It was founded on a blend of Judeo-Christian ideals, Classical philosophy, and Enlightenment rationalism (which included a healthy dose of intellectual skepticism). Liberty and democracy are HUMANIST values, not Judeo-Christian ones, although Humanism and Christianity need not be incompatible. The reason SECULAR Humanism gained its adjective was to distinguish it from Christian Humanism, from which it arose.

“I feel no need to believe in God to believe in The Golden Rule, and nobody forces me to.”

There I am in complete agreement with you. However, by laying claim to “Treat people the way you’d like to be treated” as an original invention of Jesus (it wasn’t), like laying claim to the founding of America as a Christian event (it wasn’t), the “Beleivers” end up of the opinion that anyone who doesn’t acknowledge Biblical “Truth” can’t be a good person or can’t be a “real” American. George H.W. Bush was on record as being annoyed that atheists are allowed to vote.

Speaking of fathers sacrificing their children, compare the story of Abraham and Isaac with that of Jephthah and his daughter (in Judges 11, as Rall cites). Was Jephthah a cautionary story about being careful of what you swear to do, or a shining example of a man who kept his promises? No ram was provided at the last minute for Jephthah’s daughter. The closest thing to a last-minute reprieve she got was a 30-day stay of execution to bewail the fact that she would die a virgin. Gosh, ya think maybe part of the difference was that Abraham had a son, and Jephthah had one fair daughter and no more (the which he loved passing well)?

Whatever “lesson” you take from Jephthah, Judge of Israel, it’s been arrived at through interpretation. The text itself gives no clue whether God was pleased with him or not.

The Bible contains much wisdom. But as a moral guidebook it’s maddeningly inexact, as a chronicle of tribal history it’s wildly inaccurate and incomplete, and as a science text it’s worse than useless.

Do you Wholly Buy Bull?

God said to Abraham “Kill me a son.” Abe said “God, you must be puttin’ me on.” God said “Abe…” Abe said “What…?” God said “You can do what you want to, but… The next time you see me comin’ you better run.” Abe said “Where you want this killing done?” God said “Out on Highway Sixty-One.”

Church; I studied drama for a year in university. Part of playing a part (well) involves making that character part of yourself. If you don’t sincerely believe you are the character you play, at least for the time you play it, people won’t believe you.

The first thing they tell you as you enter drama school is “get a therapy”. They told that to everyone there, because if the mind has one little problem, playing all those characters can make it worse.

Playing a character is a mental and spiritual effort.

When it comes to religious characters, if played by someone not completely balanced (and not all actors are completely balanced), it can get dangerous.

Something that looks like that is called the Jerusalem Syndrome; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_syndrome

I’ve known many old ladies who thought what was in the movie was the litteral truth and not an artistic version.

dtroutma: “There must be a power greater than ‘Man’…”

Why “must” there be?

“…but formless and certainly not Don Knotts, Steve Reeves, Charleton Heston, or Peewee Herman.”

Since you mentioned Chuck Heston, I’ll say that, for me, his definitive role (and I’m not being sarcastic) wasn’t Moses but Col. George Taylor (“Bright Eyes”) in “The Planet of the Apes.” At the beginning of the movie, he says “I can’t help thinking that somewhere in the universe there has to be something better than Man. Has to be…” and “Tell me, though. Does Man, that marvel of the universe, that glorious paradox who sent me to the stars, still make war against his brother? Keep his neighbor’s children starving?”

(Taylor has intelligence and charm, but they’re coupled with arrogance and misanthropy. Also, when he straps on that rifle near the end of the movie, he seems somehow completed. It’s a marvelous combination of actor and role, and I can’t imagine the movie working as well with anyone else.)

We are the best of beings, we are the worst of beings. Always have been. And we’re all we’ve got. Whether we end up with Heaven on Earth or Hell on Earth is up to us, either way. I’m an optimist in that I believe in the potential for human perfectablility (or at least improvement). I’m a pessimist in that I also believe in the necessity of it.