Rather than talk about what has been done, and who is and is not an idiot for thinking that way, I would really like to see some of us talk about what they believe should be done. Just a brief objective idea without anyone attacking the idea or the messenger. Even if your idea is to do nothing and let things happen as they happen, I am curious about ideas that perhaps I’ve not heard before.Respectfully,C.
I only want to suggest that when you begin your comment by saying “gun lovers live in ignorance and fear”, you instantly diminish any positive effect your message might convey. You also pigeonhole some truly brilliant, compassionate, and GOOD people of every party, culture, and income bracket.^I was once told that an ignorant person leaves their home, drives downtown, and while walking to the bank entrance, is killed by a lion that escaped from the circus. A stupid person hears that a lion has escaped the circus, drives downtown, and gets out of his car to see if he can find it, and it finds him first.Beyond that, thank you, PAJ, Bruce4671, and TheWolfInOurMidst for the thoughts and observations.Sincerely,C.
Hmm, what determines “mental health”, and responsible behavior?
I shot a deer, for the first time ever, something I shot got back up and started to run off. I did finish off the wounded animal(my scope sighting WAS off) but “losing it” even for a moment at that time, scared me. I sold my guns. Then, after working with a psychologist who helped me a lot with my PTSD, after some 30 years of not being treated before going to VA, and carrying a gun in law enforcement for 10 of those years, with no problem, I was the one who realized I needed a little “help”. More serious cases, the person does NOT recognize a “problem”, and it is friends and family who should step up and advise them to get help. That applies to any form of “lower grade” emotional, or “mental” problems!
We CAN help reduce suicides and other violence resulting from “mental problems”.
BUT: the key fact is this, the VAST MAJORITY OF SHOOTINGS, are NOT by “mentally disturbed folks”!! Killing an ex-wife, may be anger, but not totally “crazy”. Gang violence may be crazy, but doesn’t qualify as a “mental case”. Shooting someone during a robbery is NOT a “mental problem”, but a sociological, economic, or merely a problem with “ethical control of desire”?
BTW, many people under treatment for mental health issues, don’t have a violent bone in their bodies, or even “cruel cartilage”, so labels are easy to assign, but often quite inaccurate. That is the problem with letting either media, or public opinion, or “politics” determine action, or inaction, by lawmakers, or professional pundits.
addendum: Many people who’ve had treatment for disorders, are FAR BETTER OFF, than a lot of “sane” folks who are just idiots! Yes, I do have firearms again, use them sensibly, and the “violent part” of my nature IS under control, because I now know how to deal with it. DO I still get angry at things, like STUPIDITY? Yes, but “hate” isn’t part of the equation, while frustration, often is.
denis1112 forgets history. It was Ronald Reagan’s complete defunding of mental health treatment programs that put all those poor people on the streets, not the ACLU. That organization stopped people from imprisoning unwanted spouses and children without anything other than the signature of a single doctor, something easily purchased. Look up the Kennedy family’s treatment of Rosemary, sister to Jack.
as far as ACA goes, I got a notice from the VA today that informed me that the VA complies with ACA, nothing else is required…the letter also explained that those WITHOUTinsurance would have to pay a percentage of what they paidin income tax…even in 2015 it would be a LOT less thanthey would have to pay if they got individual insurance…makes pretty good sense to me…just sayn’
Everybody avoids mentioning it, because BigPharma has more power than the government – gratis of our representatives’ willingness to pander to any power entity who wishes to buy them. I’ve pointed this out numerous times, but nobody wants to hear it.
Another factor in the mix that no one wants to look at is the way the schools treat children, and what children learn in the schools. If you continually tell school children that anything they do is wonderful, it seems to me that when they are decanted from these places into the ‘real world’, they might well become resentful and even hostile, at discovering that the world will not treat them as the schools have – that now they have to not merely show up reliably (difficult enough for many), but actually produce to a standard and a schedule.
The medications we are flooding our society with, beginning in grade schools, are a response to a problem created by education, psychology and sociology. The soft sciences create the problem, BigPharma comes up with a solution that amounts to chemical hobbles, and an ever greater segment of the population is drawn under the umbrella of state services. This is population control of a sort we haven’t seen before (though the USSR certainly got plenty of mileage out of the Social Sciences in the last century), but it is not materially different from any historical oppression. It is a little more subtle, the establishment of the oppressive policies has moved a little more slowly – we haven’t got here over a few years time, or even over a few decades. We were led by the nose until we were pretty much shut out of the process, and now we have to find some way to get back in and stop the runaway train.
“I worked in a locked mental health facility for many years and I can tell you from personal experience that as soon as medications cleared a person’s thinking and they were told they could leave, we’d have to be running up the hall after them to say goodbye, they were so anxious to leave.”
I don’t find that in the least surprising.
I also agree that the mental health system badly needed reform. However, throwing the baby out with the bathwater doesn’t seem to me to be a constructive response to the problem. Now you have a situation where people who desperately need help, whose families desperately need help can’t get it, until someone dies.
The Reagan Solution has made the situation much worse, both for those who need help and those who have to deal with them.
I, for one, will be astounded if anything in the ACA changes anything for those who need mental help. The government needs the chaos created by the situation too much to give it up. How else to keep the public polarized and at odds?
While “Mental health” is a serious, under-addressed issue in the U.S., especially regarding provision of care in a timely manner, it’s statistically hardly worth mentioning with regard to homicides. As Martens notes, the vast majority of our homicides are NOT committed by folks with “mental problems” that are certifiable for commitment to institutions. Now as far a “personality disorders” that say “What’s mine is mine, and what’s yours is mine too”? That’s behind a huge number. Then there’s the angry family member that throws bullets instead of plates to end an argument.
A corporation that cuts corners in order to maximize profits is acting rationally, even if in the long run that cutting of corners leads to deaths, including deaths for which the company is ruled criminally responsible. The CEO would probably not be considered crazy, just callous, and in fact many people wouldn’t even go that far. The people who own tobacco companies must know that their products will cause deaths, and we don’t consider them crazy or even criminal. A mafia boss who orders a hit is just as rational as a president who orders a drone strike.
Dtroutma over 10 years ago
When the right to privacy assures those in the public the right to die? It IS an interesting challenge to the Constitution.
cdward over 10 years ago
The solution to all your ills – more guns!
chazandru over 10 years ago
Rather than talk about what has been done, and who is and is not an idiot for thinking that way, I would really like to see some of us talk about what they believe should be done. Just a brief objective idea without anyone attacking the idea or the messenger. Even if your idea is to do nothing and let things happen as they happen, I am curious about ideas that perhaps I’ve not heard before.Respectfully,C.
chazandru over 10 years ago
I only want to suggest that when you begin your comment by saying “gun lovers live in ignorance and fear”, you instantly diminish any positive effect your message might convey. You also pigeonhole some truly brilliant, compassionate, and GOOD people of every party, culture, and income bracket.^I was once told that an ignorant person leaves their home, drives downtown, and while walking to the bank entrance, is killed by a lion that escaped from the circus. A stupid person hears that a lion has escaped the circus, drives downtown, and gets out of his car to see if he can find it, and it finds him first.Beyond that, thank you, PAJ, Bruce4671, and TheWolfInOurMidst for the thoughts and observations.Sincerely,C.
Dtroutma over 10 years ago
Hmm, what determines “mental health”, and responsible behavior?
I shot a deer, for the first time ever, something I shot got back up and started to run off. I did finish off the wounded animal(my scope sighting WAS off) but “losing it” even for a moment at that time, scared me. I sold my guns. Then, after working with a psychologist who helped me a lot with my PTSD, after some 30 years of not being treated before going to VA, and carrying a gun in law enforcement for 10 of those years, with no problem, I was the one who realized I needed a little “help”. More serious cases, the person does NOT recognize a “problem”, and it is friends and family who should step up and advise them to get help. That applies to any form of “lower grade” emotional, or “mental” problems!
We CAN help reduce suicides and other violence resulting from “mental problems”.
BUT: the key fact is this, the VAST MAJORITY OF SHOOTINGS, are NOT by “mentally disturbed folks”!! Killing an ex-wife, may be anger, but not totally “crazy”. Gang violence may be crazy, but doesn’t qualify as a “mental case”. Shooting someone during a robbery is NOT a “mental problem”, but a sociological, economic, or merely a problem with “ethical control of desire”?
BTW, many people under treatment for mental health issues, don’t have a violent bone in their bodies, or even “cruel cartilage”, so labels are easy to assign, but often quite inaccurate. That is the problem with letting either media, or public opinion, or “politics” determine action, or inaction, by lawmakers, or professional pundits.
Dtroutma over 10 years ago
addendum: Many people who’ve had treatment for disorders, are FAR BETTER OFF, than a lot of “sane” folks who are just idiots! Yes, I do have firearms again, use them sensibly, and the “violent part” of my nature IS under control, because I now know how to deal with it. DO I still get angry at things, like STUPIDITY? Yes, but “hate” isn’t part of the equation, while frustration, often is.
pirate227 over 10 years ago
Reagan’s legacy lives on. Hey, let’s name something else after him. Like a cemetery.
Spyderred over 10 years ago
denis1112 forgets history. It was Ronald Reagan’s complete defunding of mental health treatment programs that put all those poor people on the streets, not the ACLU. That organization stopped people from imprisoning unwanted spouses and children without anything other than the signature of a single doctor, something easily purchased. Look up the Kennedy family’s treatment of Rosemary, sister to Jack.
woodwork over 10 years ago
as far as ACA goes, I got a notice from the VA today that informed me that the VA complies with ACA, nothing else is required…the letter also explained that those WITHOUTinsurance would have to pay a percentage of what they paidin income tax…even in 2015 it would be a LOT less thanthey would have to pay if they got individual insurance…makes pretty good sense to me…just sayn’
Hawthorne over 10 years ago
Everybody avoids mentioning it, because BigPharma has more power than the government – gratis of our representatives’ willingness to pander to any power entity who wishes to buy them. I’ve pointed this out numerous times, but nobody wants to hear it.
Another factor in the mix that no one wants to look at is the way the schools treat children, and what children learn in the schools. If you continually tell school children that anything they do is wonderful, it seems to me that when they are decanted from these places into the ‘real world’, they might well become resentful and even hostile, at discovering that the world will not treat them as the schools have – that now they have to not merely show up reliably (difficult enough for many), but actually produce to a standard and a schedule.
The medications we are flooding our society with, beginning in grade schools, are a response to a problem created by education, psychology and sociology. The soft sciences create the problem, BigPharma comes up with a solution that amounts to chemical hobbles, and an ever greater segment of the population is drawn under the umbrella of state services. This is population control of a sort we haven’t seen before (though the USSR certainly got plenty of mileage out of the Social Sciences in the last century), but it is not materially different from any historical oppression. It is a little more subtle, the establishment of the oppressive policies has moved a little more slowly – we haven’t got here over a few years time, or even over a few decades. We were led by the nose until we were pretty much shut out of the process, and now we have to find some way to get back in and stop the runaway train.
It’s always harder to build than to destroy.
Hawthorne over 10 years ago
“I worked in a locked mental health facility for many years and I can tell you from personal experience that as soon as medications cleared a person’s thinking and they were told they could leave, we’d have to be running up the hall after them to say goodbye, they were so anxious to leave.”
I don’t find that in the least surprising.
I also agree that the mental health system badly needed reform. However, throwing the baby out with the bathwater doesn’t seem to me to be a constructive response to the problem. Now you have a situation where people who desperately need help, whose families desperately need help can’t get it, until someone dies.
The Reagan Solution has made the situation much worse, both for those who need help and those who have to deal with them.
I, for one, will be astounded if anything in the ACA changes anything for those who need mental help. The government needs the chaos created by the situation too much to give it up. How else to keep the public polarized and at odds?
adherent#1 over 10 years ago
The mantra drones on…
Dtroutma over 10 years ago
While “Mental health” is a serious, under-addressed issue in the U.S., especially regarding provision of care in a timely manner, it’s statistically hardly worth mentioning with regard to homicides. As Martens notes, the vast majority of our homicides are NOT committed by folks with “mental problems” that are certifiable for commitment to institutions. Now as far a “personality disorders” that say “What’s mine is mine, and what’s yours is mine too”? That’s behind a huge number. Then there’s the angry family member that throws bullets instead of plates to end an argument.
lonecat over 10 years ago
A corporation that cuts corners in order to maximize profits is acting rationally, even if in the long run that cutting of corners leads to deaths, including deaths for which the company is ruled criminally responsible. The CEO would probably not be considered crazy, just callous, and in fact many people wouldn’t even go that far. The people who own tobacco companies must know that their products will cause deaths, and we don’t consider them crazy or even criminal. A mafia boss who orders a hit is just as rational as a president who orders a drone strike.