Tom Toles for October 08, 2010

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    myming  almost 12 years ago

    naturally…

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    rockngolfer  almost 12 years ago

    ^wow human you sound more like me than me.

    Only half kidding, I scored 8 of 10 on the short religion quiz and 13 of 15 on the other one. I tell my Jewish friends what I like most is they don’t try to convert me.

    I believe that the belief in God is in our DNA and so we created him rather than the other way around, if you think about it.

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    Charles Brobst Premium Member almost 12 years ago

    John 3:16 (New International Version)

    16”For God so LOVED the world

    that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    The haters with their hate signs hating on everybody but especially those not like them are really just bigots after all, and don’t represent God or religion.

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    Dkram  almost 12 years ago

    A church that hates is no church at all, and thier pastor should be removed.

    As for nonbeleavers, when they hit bottom useualy the first words spoken are “God help me.”

    I suspect that when the sky rolls back like a scoll to reveal heaven then all arguments will cease.

    \\//_

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    Doughfoot  almost 12 years ago

    Every person has the right to think what he pleases, and to speak his thoughts, whatever they may be. But not in all places, at all times, and in all ways. Perhaps we have defined ‘speech’ too broadly (as in ‘money is speech’). In this case, whatever happened to ‘disturbing the peace’? Could a veterans’ group get an injunction requiring these folks to stay, oh, a thousand yards, from any military funeral?

    I work at a place where audiences gather out front to wait in line for admission every day to attend programs that take place every half hour. A group of ‘preachers’ have taken to shouting hellfire and brimstone at the waiting, captive crowds. Sometimes they are loud enough even to disturb the program inside the building. Since the speaker standing on his footstool is in a public walking street (no vehicular traffic), there is nothing we can do. It is their street as much as it is ours.

    The original use of the word ‘terrorist,’ a couple hundred years ago, was to refer to preachers such as these who tried to terrify the hearers into submission.

    So these ‘terrorists’ are free to operate as they do in this free country, imposing their speech on unwilling hearers. They abuse their liberty, but wouldn’t any remedy be worse than the disease? I wish I knew.

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    Doughfoot  almost 12 years ago

    “Trust those who seek the Truth; doubt those who find it.”

    Dkram holds to the old saw, “There are no atheists in the foxholes.” Perhaps: but I also know of many believers who rejected their belief when confronted by great evil of great suffering. There is a certain conceit and arrogance is his assertion that when nonbelievers hit bottom, they always come around to his way of thinking.

    Not that there isn’t any truth in what he says. In the same way that soldiers often report a rise in the popularity of lucky charms and talismans of various kinds when they are faced with the dangers of combat. Drowning men grasp at straws, as they say.

    This only proves that we find belief in a higher order very useful. It does nothing to prove the higher order exists.

    I am inclined to agree, however, that those who deny that God can exist are just as presumptuous as those who simply declare as a fact that he does exist.

    Faith is neither knowledge nor belief. “The devil knows and believes too, but it doesn’t help him.” Faith is something more sublime.

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    alan.gurka  almost 12 years ago

    I have to agree with dkram about churches and preachers teaching hate are not churches or preachers and should not be allowed to claim themselves as such. That goes for preachers who want to burn holy books, regardless of whether they be New Testaments, Old Testaments or Korans. Obviously, the different religions have not all gotten God’s words interpreted the same, but that is no excuse to show disrespect and inflict violence on the “other” guys.

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    Dkram  almost 12 years ago

    My pastor’s son was killed in Irac in Jan. 2005. No one thought he would, or expected him to be in church the next sunday,but he was.

    A layman did most of the service, but steped aside for Nate to do the sermon, he said that he was there because Jesse would be mad if he thought he had done any thing to desrupt church.

    The fact is Nate could have tossed out his life of faith, but he didn’t, the whole family is stronger then before.

    Our whole church is stronger then before.

    algurka: This would apply to all faiths, to all faith leaders who teach hate to their flock.

    Doughfoot: Those who lose their faith in the face of adversaty, had no faith to begin with.

    \\//_

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    Dkram  almost 12 years ago

    You said it jack.

    \\//_

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    Motivemagus  almost 12 years ago

    And let us not forget: Your right to swing your fist ends where it meets my face.

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    pirate227  almost 12 years ago

    I love how believers try to distance themselves from their brethren that totally embarrass them.

    “Oh, no they are not a true (insert belief), we wouldn’t do that”

    Funny stuff.

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    AdmNaismith  almost 12 years ago

    The only proper response to ‘god hates fags’ is a punch in the mouth. If you come around me with that bleeep (even 1000’ away), I believe my Constitutionally protected response is to make you understand why you are such a stupid sh*t.

    The reason that more people don’t punch these people’s lights out is that when you invoke ‘Jesus’ n this country, it’s like a magic spell that protects you.

    Oh, you killed that girl for ‘JESUS’, well, that’s OK then- it must have been for a good reason…

    Jesus does not magically make anything OK. Jesus is a stupid myth that does not make anything automatically OK.

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    Jaedabee Premium Member almost 12 years ago

    Still wondering why it is that one of the lawyers / daughters of the Westboro Baptist Church works with the Kansas Department of Corrections to release convicts back into society. That contradicts her message of judgment and zero tolerance for those whose sins she doesn’t agree with.

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    iamthelorax  almost 12 years ago

    Adam:Can’t agree with you more. I am totally in shock that those people haven’t received violent reactions yet. Americans have proven to be very forgiving people with this.

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    fritzoid Premium Member almost 12 years ago

    jack: “Clark sorry if you do not believe in God. I do, If I am wrong what is the worst can happen I am worm food. If I am right I get ever lasting life, that is much better then earthly reason any day.”

    I’d say the worst that could happen (assuming you’re wrong) is that you’d have squandered the only existence you have or ever will have - the one in THIS WORLD - preparing yourself for an afterlife that turns out not to exist at all.

    Also, those who put their chips alongside Pascal’s in his wager (“It is safer to believe in God and possibly be wrong than to disbelieve in God and possibly be wrong”) overlook one big factor: What if God exists but He/She/It isn’t YOUR God? What if the Muslims are right? What if the Hindus are right? What if the Hassidim are right? What if you’ve been believing in the WRONG GOD, and it’s held against you after death? After all, there are vastly more people in the world who have a different conception of God from yours than those who believe exactly the same as you (or even near enough that you’d get into the same Heaven)…

    Everyone disbelieves in nearly every god that’s been put forward in the last 10,000 years. Atheists merely disbelieve in one more than most…

    My personal choice is to leave the metaphysics alone and live according to an ethical framework that seems optimal whether or not there’s a God. Do good because it is good to do good, not through hope for reward or fear of punishment. If I die and find myself, against all my expectations, called to judgment, I trust that my actions will count for more than my beliefs.

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    Motivemagus  almost 12 years ago

    DrC - yeah, that’s a better mirroring of the message.

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    chromosome Premium Member almost 12 years ago

    I’d like to see those jerks tarred and feathered.

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    Dtroutma  almost 12 years ago

    Actually “sticks and stones” doesn’t really reflect on the fact that certain person’s words through history have resulted in damage from a lot of sticks and stones (and bombs). The words that cross the lips of some may indeed inflame, and if the speaker finds themselves spitting out teeth a moment later, the well-deserved fist that stopped a little past the “face” or “nose” HAS been deemed in courts to be justified. “Assault” CAN be verbal, and legally be stopped.

    And yes, Slander IS illegal, and Phelps and crew have used “religion” as their protection from obvious illegality. The family should have gotten their money, and Phelps “free” to speak from his pulpit or on the street corner like the hypocrite Jesus defined, but NOT within vision or earshot of someone else’s private, religious(usually) funeral.

    The courts have long constrained speech inside their chambers for “civility” and “justice” to be respected. The same should apply to funerals; military, religious, non-relgious, or whatever.

    Protesting ,”wars” or whatever, at public events in the truly public square, or in private accommodations where the PRIVATE owners choose who speaks, or not- gets convoluted under the confusion of that amendment that starts off by saying we are free FROM any government sponsored religion.

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    HabaneroBuck  almost 12 years ago

    Fred Phelps and his flock is not a real Baptist church. It’s a tool of the Illuminati to make fundamental Christians look as outrageous and vile as possible, with a smattering of truth mixed in their message. (God very clearly opposes homosexuality in the Bible. He also opposes a lot of other sexual sins!)

    Fred Phelps has run for political office at least 5 times as a Democrat and was a very large organizer for Al Gore’s various efforts to become president. It’s true, Google it!

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    HabaneroBuck  almost 12 years ago

    Fritzoid, there’s only one major religion in the world that has a chance of being true, and everyone instinctively knows which one it is. (Hint: It’s the only one whose founder plausibly claimed to be the Creator.)

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    lonecat  almost 12 years ago

    Human – what do you mean by “God”? I’m not in the habit of arguing religion, but I’m always curious to know what people mean by the words they use.

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    Motivemagus  almost 12 years ago

    Habanero, God also opposes eating shellfish in the Bible. Going to protest shrimp?

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    Bluejayz  almost 12 years ago

    “Your God is the most powerful and the most awesome force in the entire universe… and my god can beat up your God. And I’ve got the nukes to prove it.”

    Why does religion have to be so devisive? If your God is the “one and only” god; and my god insists ‘I am the One God, and there shall be no other gods before Me,” doesn’t it stand to reason that maybe they’re the same God?

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    HabaneroBuck  almost 12 years ago

    Motive, I think you missed it, and yes, I am familiar with the Old Testament dietary restrictions.

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    Jaedabee Premium Member almost 12 years ago

    “What is interesting is that a very small minority of people who call themselves “Christians” are being called out as hypocrites and very non Christian by almost 99% of others who call themselves … Now if only another religion of “peace” could take note and maybe figure about a way of bringing their believers into the 21st century. ”

    The irony of this statement is incredible. There are ~1.5 Billion Muslims in the world and a small amount of Taliban. Just like there are a lot of Christians in the world, and a small number of those who actually bomb clinics in this country in the name of being “pro-Life.”

    “homosexuality is a sin and should not be celebrated the way it is today in society ”

    And yet pay no attention to divorce, which gets movie deals and often millions of dollars in settlements, and is legal in more states. The couple that prays together stays together… right? No? They actually have one of the highest divorce rates of any group. Oh. Oops. There are no movements to ban divorce, no movements to prevent it in any way. Christians “celebrate” divorce more than anyone else “celebrates” homosexuality. But the hypocrisy is delicious. In fact… the only group that really stands against divorce is… also ironic to your earlier sentences… the Westboro Baptist Church.
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    Doughfoot  almost 12 years ago

    Dkram is quite right in declaring that a Christian preacher who preaches hate is no Christian; such persons may worship Christ, but can hardly claim to follow him. Christ has many worshipers, few followers.

    But then, on another point, according to Dkram, anyone who once had true faith and lost it, never really had it. Thus Dkram claims to know the spiritual state of others, and call their former faith bogus, because it was not unshakable; and apparently assumes that his own faith is ‘real’ and thus is proof against anything. What Dkram calls faith, I would be tempted to call arrogance and conceit.

    This an old trick, you know:

    Once you have faith, you can never lose it. If you lose it you never really had it.

    That goes along with:

    The Bible means what I think it means, because I have faith to guide me; if you think it means something else, then you obviously you lack faith; if the Bible seems confusing or contradictory to you, it is because you lack faith. If you don’t agree with me on religious matters, you MUST lack faith.

    And:

    If you love me, you will never love another man. If you ever love another man then you never really loved me.

    And

    If you truly love me, you will never look at another woman. If you look at another woman, you never really loved me.

    And even:

    If you are virtuous, you will see the Emperor’s beautiful new clothes. If you are wicked, the clothes will be invisible to you.

    It’s all the same kind of trick.

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  27. John adams1
    Motivemagus  almost 12 years ago

    Habanero, you are conveniently claiming that fundamentalist literalists who happen to be hateful and who disagree with you are not Christians, plus you seem to be implying they are some sort of plot to make fundamentalists look bad. As it happens, I agree that they are not truly Christian, but I also don’t take the Bible literally. Also, as any Christian should know, Jesus tossed a lot of the Old Testament away and made the new covenant one of loving your neighbor no matter who they are. Yeah, I knew what you are doing. I’m just calling out the habit of using the Bible to justify yourself when you feel like it and ignoring all the OTHER bits. I grew up with a lot of fundamentalists (not in my family, thank God) and the main difference between Fred Phelps and the others is, if anything, that they are honestly pushing their views in the strongest possible way, but their views are not much different –if at all– from a lot of other fundamentalist Southern Baptists.

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