Ted Rall for May 16, 2009

“Dumb All Over” Frank Zappa You can’t run a country By a book of religion Not by a heap Or a lump or a smidgeon Of foolish rules Of ancient date Designed to make You all feel great…

We band together for a number of reasons, but in no small part in reaction to the ridicule and bigotry displayed here.

Well, folks, I’m what used to be called a “freethinking” Catholic, who believes in individual conscience - which is, incidentally, part of Catholic belief. I think Bush was reprehensible to impose his narrow-minded and bizarre view of Christianity (torture is okay? Killing babies is wrong but killing adult prisoners isn’t? Give more money to the rich and abandon the poor? What New Testament do you read, Dubya?) on a country founded to be deliberately non-religious. The only way to be fair to all religions is for the government to endorse none. The Founding Fathers (and Abigail Adams) knew that.

I’m an atheist who DOES think about God, A LOT. All my life I’ve been trying to imagine what sort of God I COULD believe in. When I consider what OTHER people believe about God, their conceptions have invariably been either too vague to have any real meaning, or incompatible with the realities of existence. In today’s “Baldo”, Gracie says that she won’t reach her goals by wishing for them, she’ll reach them through hard work. I would add “praying for them” to the list of ways in which you may THINK you are contributing to peace, health, wisdom, and happiness, but which blind you to the fact that you’re doing nothing at all.

Belief in an interventionist God is a mindset which we must abandon, and ought not to tolerate in others. A grown adult who believes in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy would rightly be considered either a fool or mentally ill. But when those in policy positions claim that “God has told me I’m doing the right thing” we’re NOT supposed to recognize that they’re delusional?

The world will rise or it will fall through human agency. The problems facing us as a society and as individuals are not caused by the Devil, and will not be solved by waiting for Divine Intervention.

We are all in this together. We may help ourselves, or we may help one another. But we will be waiting a LOOOOONG time before God steps in with any solutions. And those who say “God works through men, and sends help where he chooses to do so” are not giving credit where credit is due. It is PEOPLE who provide aid to one another, not God.

The separation of church and state is key here. Atheists are discriminated against in the sense that most people at this time would not vote for one to hold public office. This should not be a factor if you truly believe in the separation of church and state.

The separation of church and state is the key. It isn’t what you do or don’t believe, but the fact you can’t force it on anyone else. Whether golf, or God, or godless, fanatics accepting only their views as truth, make any position dangerous.

Losing faith in about everything, I believe is one of the messages here.

“The fool has said in his heart, there is no God.” Psalm 14:1

dwyant, you might also have used “No one is blinder than he who will not see.” Funny thing, though; that quote is like “The devil himself can quote scripture to suit his purposes” – it cuts both ways.

Motive says: The only way to be fair to all religions is for the government to endorse none.

Very good post.

I’m a buddhist and budhism is essentially agnostic when it comes to who made the Universe and why. That’s why many consider it a philosophy and, as my university teacher puts it, an atheistic religion. (That’s the loophole that allows me to keep my catholic baptism so the BF and I can be married catholic).

I do believe one should live according to the Dharma and the Buddha’s teaching. Do I think they should be pressured or obligated to do so? No.

I believe there is a creator God. Do I believe everyone has to believe that? No (and that wasn’t always the case up here in French Canada, as late as the 1950’s).

I believe the right thing to do for most pregnant women is to keep her child. Do I think she should be obligated to do so? No.

I’m a regular Ted Rall reader and normally I love his stuff. But, this comic is just wrong, so wrong that I had to go to his website, get his email address, and send him a note. Also, so wrong that I would also like to post the email I sent him as a comment here:

Hi. I love your comics. Most of the time you are spot on and giving it to both the right and the left while being hilarious at the same time.

You’re May 16, 2009 comic on atheism, however misses the point entirely. It is funny, but, the point that it seems to be making is that atheists are somehow disingenuous if they choose to espouse their convictions and to form communities. It’s like you’re trying to say that only theists should form communities. Well, unfortunately, you’re just simply wrong about this.

I was raised as a Mormon. It took me 24 years to figure out what a twisted wreck of deceptions Mormonism is. But, once I left Mormonism, there was a void in my life- and that void was community. So, I sought community without dogmatism. I spent a decade attending a Unitarian Universalist congregation. The UUs do a pretty good job of building a church-like community where anyone who is open minded can come and be together. It was only after I saw the politics of the place, realizing that the minister was running the show and subverting the democratic process (something that UUs hold dear), that I decided to take a sabbatical from my UU congregation. But, I still wanted community, and this time I wanted community with atheists. So I sought out the local atheist group. It’s been two years now, and it’s not as big or exciting of a community as the UU congregation, but it’s growing and getting better.

I hope you’ll forgive me for indulging in sharing a little of my personal history. I only hoped that telling a little of my story might help you see that the point that you’re making in your comic was flawed. It was funny, but flawed.

Also, if non-golfers were subjected to the daily barrage of pro-golf propaganda like the pro-religion propagand that we non-theists are subjected to daily in the U.S., you would see communities of non-golfers spring up- if only so that the non-golfers could commiserate with each other about how sick and tired they are of hearing about golf. The addage about misery loving company doesn’t always mean that miserable people will try to make others miserable. Sometimes it means that we seek out others who know our pain so that we can support one another.

Thanks for listening. Keep up the good work. And, please, consider printing a retraction.

And belief in a creator god is not the same as belief in an interventionist god. The Deists believed that a god of some sort existed, and was the prime mover, but that attempts to understand the nature and intentions of that god were doomed by the limitations of human capacity. Jefferson put together his own edition of “The Life and Wisdom of Jesus of Nazareth” or something like that (a/k/a “The Jeffersonian Bible”), where he cut out all the bits about miracles and heaven and left in the parables and preachings. Of course, it ends with Jesus’s death on the cross.

Using the Bible (or any text based on metaphysics) to illustrate ethical behavior is fine; we use Aesop’s fables, fairy tales, Shakespeare’s plays, etc. for much the same purposes. But to believe that the text is the SOURCE of morality, or that it is an infallible guide to history, cosmology, psychology, criminal justice, etc. is delusional. As a chronical of events leading to the founding and history of the Jews and Jerusalem, it is incomplete, and deeply flawed in much of what it says. As a science text, it is ridiculous. And it’s the people who believe it’s a predictor of FUTURE occurrences that are too dangerous to be allowed to roam the streets. Or even VOTE, for that matter. Anyone who thinks that things should be allowed to get worse and worse because that means we’re closer to the fulfillment of God’s plan should NEVER be allowed to occupy a policy-making position. Anyone who’s LOOKING FORWARD to Armageddon must not be allowed the power to bring it about. As the foundation of a moral system, the Bible (both Testaments) is maddeningly unclear; at least Aesop clearly marked out the MORAL of each of his stories, whereas theologians must “interpret” the scriptures which they believe are the infallible word of God.

What about the sacrifice by Jephthah of his virgin daughter, to fulfill an oath to God? Are we to believe that Jephthah acted righteously in doing this? If we believe God says “You must kill this person”, are we obliged to obey? 99.9999% of those people who claim to hear God’s voice telling them what to do are psychotics or con-men, and I have no reason to believe the other 00.0001% are speaking truth either.

Anyone who reaches adulthood believing that the Earth is 6,000 years old, that we’re descended from Adam and Eve in Eden, that God hates masturbation, that homosexuals are a abomination because that’s what Grandma done read me from the Bible, I regard as a failure of our responsibilities to educate the populus. While parents are allowed to pull their children from Biology class because their children are being taught evolution, or from Physics class because they’re being taught that the universe is billions of years old and Earth is not its center, or from Sex Ed because they’re being taught that condoms can prevent babies and that homosexuals are human beings too, then we are allowing parents to abuse their children by instilling their OWN superstitious ignorance in the next generation. I don’t think we should close the churches and outlaw religion, but we should forbid religious instruction to children, rightly considering it child abuse. If they reach eighteen and still think they need to believe in God, let them start going then. We do not permit parents to poison their children’s bodies, why should we permit them to poison their minds?

I don’t recall who said it but “Everybody disbelieves in almost every god that has ever been put forward for the job. We atheists just take it one god further than most.”

I’m a Unitarian Universalist, pantheist. My congregation consists of atheists, and pagans and those that are moved by Bhuddism, and those that are more like gnostic Christians. It’s all part of the mix. Anyway we have the freedom to explore what we have learned in our journey as individuals and share this with our fellow members. It makes for good dialog because of all the different view points.

“Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person’s life, freedom of religion affects every individual. Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine all our civil rights.”

Thomas Jefferson, to the Virginia Baptists (1808)

And one more for good measure…

“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”

Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

I believe in God, but I believe also in mankind. I don’t think a god worthy of our worship would waste his time on a mindless flock of sheep like some self-appointed “shephards” claim we are or should be.

Nobody will ever be in God’s mind, but the closest we can ever be, IMHO, is being in a parent’s mind.

If you are a parent, what would you rather leave your kid with; an instruction book (like a computer instruction book, I’m sure nobody here never had any computer problem the Good Instruction Book couldn’t solve, teehee!) of that you shouldn’t think away from, no matter what or a thirst for experimentation, challenges to take, strenghts do develop and stuff to learn BUT with a few hints and pearls of wisdom?

@progan01

I can only see one angle by which I might be missing the point. And that is if you believe he’s promoting the idea, as put forth by Sam Harris, that we shouldn’t even need a word for atheism the way we don’t need a word for people who don’t believe in astrology.

However, as you said, we live in a ‘god haunted’ country and atheists are alienated and therefore looking for sympathetic companionship. In light of this, I think that the 4th panel of the strip clinches my interpretation- Rall is mocking atheists for forming communities. His point here is misguided.

BTW- what the blerg does Rall’s misguided mocking of atheist groups have to do with whether or not neocons or the “Christianists” owe us an apology?

God is a bullet from my gun.

Religion is all about societal control in the hands of the one or the few. Create a supernatural being and then a cloistered, gate-keeping elite to “interpret” the supernatural being’s “will” and you are well on your way to understanding 99% of the history of the species homo sapiens sapiens.

I’m not sure just to whom I am replying, but I submit the following: at age 5 (1937) I had a ruptured appendix–diagnosed at least 48 to 72 hours after the event. (Remember, no sulfa, no antibiotics in those days.) The surgeon who operated said that the only way he could justify surgery was that I would definitely die if he did not. (I am now 78.) In 1965 my four-year-old daughter was diagnosed with lymphosarcoma, and my husband and I could easily tell from the way the doctors talked to us that they were preparing us for her imminent death. She is now 48 and the mother of two great kids. Our families have always been and still are convinced of the power of prayer, and these two events have done nothing to disabuse us of our faith. (We are Episcopalians, if anyone is interested.)

As an atheist I am thoroughly peed off by the evangelical tendencies becoming widespread among my peers. Here’s a hint: If you’re so damned insecure in your lack of a metaphysical crutch that you feel the need to “flaunt it” my guess is that there’s still a spark of the old superstition lurking in the back of your mind.

“Live and let live”, say I. If others want to believe in the Holy Ghost or genuflect at the base of an ooga-booga tree, why should I care? BTW, I attended public school back in the days when the school day started with a prayer, and the annual Christmas Concert was a big deal. I don’t believe that I suffered permanent brain damage.

A documented case, as reported in Andrew Newberg’s “Why We Believe What We Believe” (you can find the source citation there):

Mr. Wright has cancer and is not expected to live through the night. He hears of a new drug called Krebiozen, which is still in the testing phase but which is generating high hopes. He asks his doctor, Dr. Klopfer, to be given the treatment. The injection was given, and within days his tumors had shrunk to half their original size. Within 10 days, his disease was almost undetectable and he returned home from the hospital.

Two months later, the FDA reported that testing of Kebiozen were showing it to be a failure. Mr. Wright read about this, and became immediately ill. The tumors returned, and he had to be readmitted to the hospital. Dr. Klopfer then gave Mr. Wright injections of sterile water, telling him that it was a new, super-refined, double-strength version of Kebiozen, which was guaranteed to produce better results.

Once again, the tumors disappeared, and Mr. Wright resumed his normal life – until the newspapers reported the latest A.M.A. findings, “Nationwide Tests Show Krebiozen to Be a Worthless Drug in Treatment of Cancer.” Mr. Wright saw these headlines, and was dead within two days.

Yes, “the power of prayer” works, but it is a result of processes within the person doing the praying, not the reception or transmission of miraculous healing power from one entity to another.

You know what really pisses me off? Jim Henson’s death. That pisses me off. What a waste to the world, because of a really stupid belief by a guy who should have known better.

What’s problematic is when a “miracle” cure is seen to be a sign of the virtue of the one cured. By extension, those who are NOT cured would be considered not as viruous, no? (I know that’s a logical fallacy, but that’s how people often see the matter.) So it comes down to God’s Grace, which he dispenses where he chooses… Which means it comes down to nothing. Pray or don’t pray, God heals those he chooses to heal.

Take a person who believes that letting an illness progress so that God’s glory might be shown through an interventionist miracle, and put that person in a decision-making capacity involving the well-being of a nation or the world. “Nuclear war means Jesus is about to come back! And MY FRIENDS won’t have to suffer, because we’ll be whisked up to heaven in the Rapture! Praises be to God!”

Lots of interesting posts here. It makes me contemplate the mystery of life and death. My mother died in 1969 and the family had gotten together to discuss funeral arrangements and then went to our respective homes. I was lying in bed getting ready to go to sleep when I sensed a spiritual presence like a lightening flash coming closer and closer and my mother was with this presence. I sensed her saying “I’m OK and I have to go away now.” I felt a surge of grief and could sense my mother being upset by my grief, and then the lightening flash tapped me as gently as a feather, and my grief was relieved. Then the 2 presences went away. I kept this to myself for a couple months but then my dad had dinner with us and said, “the night that Annie died I felt this lightning flash come to me with your mother and she said good bye.” We then compared notes on this event.

@deadheadzan, I guess that clinches it. The world now has irrefutable proof of some kind of life after death and the presence of spirits. Or, it could just be that you and your dad believe similar stuff and had similar grief induced hallucinations. Naw, that can’t be it. Nope. Proof positive of the supernatural. Next time can you get it on video for the rest of us? Thanks for sharing. :-p

Concerning my post of yesterday I might add: my brother is an atheist so I have not tried to make him believe in the same way that I believe. At my UU church I have had discussions with my fellow parish members, some of whom are atheists. I have not tried to prostelitize but have merely explained what I have experienced in my lifetime. That’s it.

When I was a kid, I saw Mommy kissing Santa Claus. It was a profound experience for me, and it affects me to this day. None of you were there, so how can you say that the nature of this event was not what I say it was?

Every year, people bring “perpetual motion machines” to the U.S. Patent Office, to try to register them The examiners do not even bother to look at the diagrams. Is this mean-spirited or closed-minded of them, or simply an acknowledgement of the laws of thermodynamics?

When Mankind was collectively still in the cradle, the priests told us “God fills the rest of the room.” As we left our crib and explored the room, we were told “God is elswhere in the house.” Soon we knew the limits of the house, and we were assured “God is in the forests.” We mapped the wildernesses, but then “God is in the clouds”. When the clouds proved empty, they said “God is in outer space.” As we learn more about the universe, there is so far no sign of God, so now “God is outside Space and Time.”

God is constantly being pushed to whatever is just beyond our scope. God takes refuge in whatever we do not yet know. And while I admit that there is much that is unknown, I dispute that there is much, if anything, which is by nature “unknowable.”

It has been said “Man’s reach should exceed his grasp, else what’s a Heaven for?” But the rejection of a mythical Heaven will in nowise prevent us from seeking to extend our understanding and our abilities.

For someone who claims to be an atheist, Mr Rall is certainly willing to do the work of the priests for them. Maybe he’s like those people in Europe who are converting to Islam in the hopes that the new class bully will beat them up last.