Hazard has it right: SERE was designed to train potential POWs to resist the enemy. The “enhanced techniques” some still refuse to call “torture” are reliable methods only for obtaining false testimony the enemy can use for propaganda. Subjecting trainees to such treatment lets them know the enemy can get any lie they want. A POW’s only option is to “make ‘em work for it.”
What idiot ever thought torture could actually be used to obtain useful intelligence?
Some evidence is emerging that waterboarding was used to get subjects to lie about (non-existent) links between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda in order to shore up American public support for the war on Iraq. Maybe starting the programme was not so idiotic…reprehensible, but not idiotic.
“NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise…surprise and fear…fear and surprise…. Our two weapons are fear and surprise…and ruthless efficiency…. Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency…and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope…. Our four…no… Amongst our weapons…. Amongst our weaponry…are such elements as fear, surprise…. I’ll come in again.”
Cleokaya, where? I lived near Bellingham for many years, but in the foothills, no possiblility of flooding but had to watch out for those pesky volcanoes….
Ahhh - would’ve been no great loss…..
The dang place is always FREEZINGLY COLD!!!
I recall Bill Cosby’s routine about the constant chilly rain there:
“Oh, you look like a prune today!”
“Why, thank you very much!”
If the sun comes out, the natives don’t know what to do! They’re all wonderin’: “What happened - does the Lord hate us? Is our town DEAD???”
That’s REALLY old Cos - my poppa was a Cos fanatic ‘way back when. He bought & listened to EVERY Cosby standup album, starting with (I think) RIGHT! (featuring “Noah”) & would THEN hand-down the LP to me: “Here, son - now be careful, there’s some bad language mixed in there”.
Oh, man, he should hear my Richard Pryor LP “That Nigguh’s Crazy”!!!
On 2nd thought, maybe not - that just might do ‘im in: “I’m comin’ to see ya, ‘Lizabeth”, a la Fred S-A-N-F-O-R-D PERIOD!
It’s reckless to think that everything that is confessed to under torture is truthful.
It’s also reckless to think that everything that is confessed to under torture is false.
It’s a systematic process for intelligence professionals to discover where that line is. When the subject admits to being the Easter Bunny, it’s time to take a break for the afternoon.
It’s unfortunate - but not surprising - that Gary is ignoring commenting on the antics in Congress of late. The Bush Realm of Torture is over, Gary…. time to MoveOn.
The new site functionality doesn’t work - I have been working my way through the Doonesbury archive by jumping back to the first strip, calling up calendar mode and paging forward first years and then months until I get to where I left off. Now if you want to access any strip other than current month or first year you have to page through hundreds of individual strips - if they don’t fix this I’ll be trying to find another site that hosts this strip - TOTAL BS!
During the Spanish Inquisition (and in the Tower of London), guilt was established by accusation. If someone accused you of the crime, you were factually guilty of the crime. The ensuing torture was designed to get you to confess, which could effect your eventual punishment for said crime.
200 years of American jurisprudence is built on the concept that you are innocent, until you are proven guilty at a fair trial where you are entitled to face your accusers.
Until Condi Rice declared that we need to catch and detain terrorists BEFORE they commit acts of terrorism - which brings us back to guilt by accusation and punishment based on torture-induced confession (how else can you determine punishment for a crime that hasn’t been committed, except by basing it on confession of intent?)
I’ve been saying this for years. This is the first time I’ve ever seen it in print. Trudeau hit the nail dead on the head here. EVERYONE who has anything to do with interrogating prisoners goes through this themselves, to know what it is like. The interrogators were told, ‘Do what it takes’ and so instead of following their training they did what they ‘learned’ (read experianced) at SERE. Our interrogators figured that they had survived it, so it couldnt be real torture. This is why members of the Bush/Cheney administration, and anyone else from Congress who knew about it, should be tried, removed from office, whatever. Somehow gotten rid of. Because what they did is POOR leadership. You don’t give ambiguous orders. And you fall on your sword, rather than let a subordinate take the hit. And you never, ever, give an illegal or immoral order. No matter what the possible cost. Our soldiers did their best in a bad situation, with conflicting and ambiguous instructions. Our ELECTED leadership must be held accountable to the maximum degree possible.
—
Sorry GEE1A, I have to disagree. Torture only helps you get the answer you want, not the answer which is right. There is a difference. I follow your reasoning, but it only goes so far. The examples you gave, the Spanish Inquisition, the Jackson administration, the Nazis, are all gone. We don’t want to follow their example. We got lucky our nation survived Jackson. If he’d really wanted he probably could have held a coup and made himself dictator. You get results with violence, but not necessarily the best solution.
cleokaya almost 15 years ago
I’m safe, unless the flood flows north 90 miles.
wndrwrthg almost 15 years ago
“Curses, foiled again”.
ARF2 almost 15 years ago
Hazard has it right: SERE was designed to train potential POWs to resist the enemy. The “enhanced techniques” some still refuse to call “torture” are reliable methods only for obtaining false testimony the enemy can use for propaganda. Subjecting trainees to such treatment lets them know the enemy can get any lie they want. A POW’s only option is to “make ‘em work for it.”
What idiot ever thought torture could actually be used to obtain useful intelligence?
aardvarkseyes almost 15 years ago
Some evidence is emerging that waterboarding was used to get subjects to lie about (non-existent) links between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda in order to shore up American public support for the war on Iraq. Maybe starting the programme was not so idiotic…reprehensible, but not idiotic.
Hugh B. Hayve almost 15 years ago
Ve haf veys of making you talk!
pouncingtiger almost 15 years ago
Why Seattle? Los Angeles would be better.
pouncingtiger almost 15 years ago
Hugh and GEE1A;
“NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise…surprise and fear…fear and surprise…. Our two weapons are fear and surprise…and ruthless efficiency…. Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency…and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope…. Our four…no… Amongst our weapons…. Amongst our weaponry…are such elements as fear, surprise…. I’ll come in again.”
Ring a bell?
pschearer Premium Member almost 15 years ago
SERE = Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape.
Packratjohn Premium Member almost 15 years ago
Cleokaya, where? I lived near Bellingham for many years, but in the foothills, no possiblility of flooding but had to watch out for those pesky volcanoes….
cleokaya almost 15 years ago
packratjohn, I live on a lake in Bellingham. Where do you now live?
durtclaw almost 15 years ago
Los Angles plus one winter of North West weather and Catalina would have company.
risitas almost 15 years ago
Ahhh - would’ve been no great loss….. The dang place is always FREEZINGLY COLD!!!
I recall Bill Cosby’s routine about the constant chilly rain there:
“Oh, you look like a prune today!”
“Why, thank you very much!”
If the sun comes out, the natives don’t know what to do! They’re all wonderin’: “What happened - does the Lord hate us? Is our town DEAD???”
That’s REALLY old Cos - my poppa was a Cos fanatic ‘way back when. He bought & listened to EVERY Cosby standup album, starting with (I think) RIGHT! (featuring “Noah”) & would THEN hand-down the LP to me: “Here, son - now be careful, there’s some bad language mixed in there”.
Oh, man, he should hear my Richard Pryor LP “That Nigguh’s Crazy”!!!
On 2nd thought, maybe not - that just might do ‘im in: “I’m comin’ to see ya, ‘Lizabeth”, a la Fred S-A-N-F-O-R-D PERIOD!
Nemesys almost 15 years ago
It’s reckless to think that everything that is confessed to under torture is truthful.
It’s also reckless to think that everything that is confessed to under torture is false.
It’s a systematic process for intelligence professionals to discover where that line is. When the subject admits to being the Easter Bunny, it’s time to take a break for the afternoon.
It’s unfortunate - but not surprising - that Gary is ignoring commenting on the antics in Congress of late. The Bush Realm of Torture is over, Gary…. time to MoveOn.
mrtdoones almost 15 years ago
The new site functionality doesn’t work - I have been working my way through the Doonesbury archive by jumping back to the first strip, calling up calendar mode and paging forward first years and then months until I get to where I left off. Now if you want to access any strip other than current month or first year you have to page through hundreds of individual strips - if they don’t fix this I’ll be trying to find another site that hosts this strip - TOTAL BS!
ehurst almost 15 years ago
@mrtdoones, I’m unclear as to what problem you are having. The calendar and first/current nav arrows work really well.
longtimecomicsfan almost 15 years ago
GEE1A -
During the Spanish Inquisition (and in the Tower of London), guilt was established by accusation. If someone accused you of the crime, you were factually guilty of the crime. The ensuing torture was designed to get you to confess, which could effect your eventual punishment for said crime.
200 years of American jurisprudence is built on the concept that you are innocent, until you are proven guilty at a fair trial where you are entitled to face your accusers.
Until Condi Rice declared that we need to catch and detain terrorists BEFORE they commit acts of terrorism - which brings us back to guilt by accusation and punishment based on torture-induced confession (how else can you determine punishment for a crime that hasn’t been committed, except by basing it on confession of intent?)
ChukLitl Premium Member almost 15 years ago
Re: mrtdoones I’ve also been reading back toons from the beginning. I save my place using “Favorites.” Remove & replace them like bookmarks.
Durak Premium Member almost 15 years ago
I’ve been saying this for years. This is the first time I’ve ever seen it in print. Trudeau hit the nail dead on the head here. EVERYONE who has anything to do with interrogating prisoners goes through this themselves, to know what it is like. The interrogators were told, ‘Do what it takes’ and so instead of following their training they did what they ‘learned’ (read experianced) at SERE. Our interrogators figured that they had survived it, so it couldnt be real torture. This is why members of the Bush/Cheney administration, and anyone else from Congress who knew about it, should be tried, removed from office, whatever. Somehow gotten rid of. Because what they did is POOR leadership. You don’t give ambiguous orders. And you fall on your sword, rather than let a subordinate take the hit. And you never, ever, give an illegal or immoral order. No matter what the possible cost. Our soldiers did their best in a bad situation, with conflicting and ambiguous instructions. Our ELECTED leadership must be held accountable to the maximum degree possible. — Sorry GEE1A, I have to disagree. Torture only helps you get the answer you want, not the answer which is right. There is a difference. I follow your reasoning, but it only goes so far. The examples you gave, the Spanish Inquisition, the Jackson administration, the Nazis, are all gone. We don’t want to follow their example. We got lucky our nation survived Jackson. If he’d really wanted he probably could have held a coup and made himself dictator. You get results with violence, but not necessarily the best solution.
NotFromIceland almost 15 years ago
They could flood Texas. No one else would miss it, and they say they don’t want to be Americans, anyway.