The very best con is the one where you tell the mark what he wants to hear. Religion has been doing that for thousands of years and people are finally waking up to that.
I don’t think people are abandoning Christianity, but I do believe organized religion often goes too far in dictating without allowing for questions. I believe that more people are spiritual and communicate with God on their own-without public display, which is actually recommended in the Bible.
The PEW survey should have examined the REASONS some, not all, churches have lost members.-The Liberal churches have been losing members because of the apostate teachings and social positions on issues that Bible principles oppose (abortion, etc.). They do not defend the Bible, but feature secular “sermons” and programs.-Many Evangelical and many Loyal to the Bible churches have benefitted from incoming members from the “ice cold” pews, to the Bible “churches”….but even some Evangelicals now are apostate in their own teachings, claiming it is not necessary to believe in God the Son, Jesus, for salvation.-Many Bible believers (I am one) have reasons of Faith in God’s Word or other reasons (bad health, etc.) for not attending a local church. Many church members have aged and gone on to Heaven, in the past few decades.-But God’s Word never returns to him without increasing the number of believers. Satellite Gospel programs are reaching and being accepted in the entire world of former Muslims, and foreign native believers (The Gospel to Asia, for example) are seeing success in increasing converts. America because of our sinful culture in the 21st century, is now a Mission Field for Asian and African Bible believing churches.-The Key is, what do people believe? Salvation is given to only those putting Faith in His Word the Bible and the only name given among men for salvation= Jesus the Christ of God.
While “millennials” seem to be ignoring organized religions in droves, “disgusted” displays much of the hate and conformity demanded by faith; be it “evangelicals”, or ISIL, the drive is the same.
Maybe folks are getting fed up with the violence and hypocrisy pushed by the “super relgious”, in all corners?
I think it’s harder and harder for many people to believe in (or to be interested in) the details of Christian dogma. For example, Is the Son co-eternal with the Father? I happened to ask my class that question a couple of weeks ago (we were reading Paradise Lost, and Milton probably didn’t believe that the Son is co-eternal with the Father), and my students were quite baffled by the question; even though about half of them graduated from Catholic schools, the question had clearly never been discussed, and they didn’t feel that it was at all important. I know people who say they are Christians but don’t believe that Jesus was divine, or the Son of God, or whatever. They just say he was a wise religious teacher. So I would say that traditional Christianity has lost its appeal for many people. On the other hand I know some people who are Evangelical and who maintain the inerrancy of the Bible. Just what they mean by that I don’t know, and I don’t ask, since I don’t enjoy arguing about religion. And on the third hand, I know a lot of people who have somewhat vague “spiritual” feelings, and who dabble in various forms of “spirituality”. They don’t find that traditional Christianity makes sense for them, or that it offers the spiritual comfort they desire, but they still have feelings and longings or a need to find meaning somewhere. I don’t dismiss those feelings. I have some of those feelings myself, but I also prefer if whatever I believe is reasonably consistent with what makes rational sense.
I see your point. Here’s a question, then. When people did like it, why did they like it? I’m not expecting a single answer. But were their needs which religion met at one time but which it no longer meets? Does belief have much to do with why people are religious? Does that change from time to time? If it isn’t belief that matters, then what is it?
I’m going to have to spend some time thinking about Baslim’s contribution, but in the meantime, I would note that different cultures have very different conceptions of “religion” and even within a single culture there can be widely different views. I work mostly on the ancient world; there was quite a range of attitudes and beliefs then. At a certain point there was a lot of skepticism, but even among the skeptics there were many who thought that religion, by which they meant mostly ritual practices, had social utility. Big transitiion: for other reasons I’ve been spending a lot of time lately reading nineteenth century English novels, and even though all the authors were at least notionally “Christian” they show very little concern with religion, and mostly they seem to feel that people who are very enthusiastic about religion are a little strange. But they would all agree that people should attend church, and mostly they would have disapproved of anyone questioning the fundamentals of Christianity.So from two very different times I would argue that religion was mostly a matter of social cohesion. But of course there are other times, times when people cared deeply about dogma.You say “[religion] provides understanding of the world, suggests hope for a future, and provides cohesiveness to society and self identity. Science now provides that understanding, politics provide that tribalistic cohesiveness and identity, economics provides hope and meaning. There’s just nothing left for religion to do; its roles have been usurped.” I can go along with most of this, but I’m not sure that economics provides hope and meaning; certainly not for me. And also there are also a fair number of people who don’t find that science, politics, and economics are sufficient. Why does your trinity work for some and not for others?
I’m sure you’re right about the religious feelings of soldiers in the civil war, and in many other wars. No doubt people in extreme situations look for psychic support wherever they can find it. But that doesn’t mean that in day-to-day life they would have strong religious feelings. But as I said above, clearly some people do. The supports Hiram mentioned (science, politics, and economics) work for some people some times, but not for all people all the time. Are the differences simply a matter of individual psychology?
Just something else to throw into the pot, if this pot is still on the burner. I know a lot of people who have no interest in the mainstream religions, but who do have an interest in various alternative religions or practices or what have you. My brother-in-law has been attending something called “A Course in Miracles”; my sister is a follower of a Chinese master, I have friends who are part of a Gurdjieff group; in addition, I know lots of people who devote their time to various fringe political/social organizations, which aren’t really much different from religions. All these people are looking for meaning, and they don’t find that the mainstream religions provide that meaning for them.
bernardgarner almost 9 years ago
The very best con is the one where you tell the mark what he wants to hear. Religion has been doing that for thousands of years and people are finally waking up to that.
nanellen almost 9 years ago
I don’t think people are abandoning Christianity, but I do believe organized religion often goes too far in dictating without allowing for questions. I believe that more people are spiritual and communicate with God on their own-without public display, which is actually recommended in the Bible.
goweeder almost 9 years ago
Sigmund Freud said,“Religion is a form of insanity.”Anyone who hasn’t been brainwashed since birth is well aware of that.
kline0800 almost 9 years ago
The PEW survey should have examined the REASONS some, not all, churches have lost members.-The Liberal churches have been losing members because of the apostate teachings and social positions on issues that Bible principles oppose (abortion, etc.). They do not defend the Bible, but feature secular “sermons” and programs.-Many Evangelical and many Loyal to the Bible churches have benefitted from incoming members from the “ice cold” pews, to the Bible “churches”….but even some Evangelicals now are apostate in their own teachings, claiming it is not necessary to believe in God the Son, Jesus, for salvation.-Many Bible believers (I am one) have reasons of Faith in God’s Word or other reasons (bad health, etc.) for not attending a local church. Many church members have aged and gone on to Heaven, in the past few decades.-But God’s Word never returns to him without increasing the number of believers. Satellite Gospel programs are reaching and being accepted in the entire world of former Muslims, and foreign native believers (The Gospel to Asia, for example) are seeing success in increasing converts. America because of our sinful culture in the 21st century, is now a Mission Field for Asian and African Bible believing churches.-The Key is, what do people believe? Salvation is given to only those putting Faith in His Word the Bible and the only name given among men for salvation= Jesus the Christ of God.
Zen-of-Zinfandel almost 9 years ago
Some millenials really want cup holders installed in church pews…
Dtroutma almost 9 years ago
While “millennials” seem to be ignoring organized religions in droves, “disgusted” displays much of the hate and conformity demanded by faith; be it “evangelicals”, or ISIL, the drive is the same.
Maybe folks are getting fed up with the violence and hypocrisy pushed by the “super relgious”, in all corners?
robinjhislop almost 9 years ago
How do you tell one all powerful, invisible entity from another? They all require Faith, Obedience and Intolerance.
lonecat almost 9 years ago
I think it’s harder and harder for many people to believe in (or to be interested in) the details of Christian dogma. For example, Is the Son co-eternal with the Father? I happened to ask my class that question a couple of weeks ago (we were reading Paradise Lost, and Milton probably didn’t believe that the Son is co-eternal with the Father), and my students were quite baffled by the question; even though about half of them graduated from Catholic schools, the question had clearly never been discussed, and they didn’t feel that it was at all important. I know people who say they are Christians but don’t believe that Jesus was divine, or the Son of God, or whatever. They just say he was a wise religious teacher. So I would say that traditional Christianity has lost its appeal for many people. On the other hand I know some people who are Evangelical and who maintain the inerrancy of the Bible. Just what they mean by that I don’t know, and I don’t ask, since I don’t enjoy arguing about religion. And on the third hand, I know a lot of people who have somewhat vague “spiritual” feelings, and who dabble in various forms of “spirituality”. They don’t find that traditional Christianity makes sense for them, or that it offers the spiritual comfort they desire, but they still have feelings and longings or a need to find meaning somewhere. I don’t dismiss those feelings. I have some of those feelings myself, but I also prefer if whatever I believe is reasonably consistent with what makes rational sense.
Richard Howland-Bolton Premium Member almost 9 years ago
That might just work…
lonecat almost 9 years ago
I see your point. Here’s a question, then. When people did like it, why did they like it? I’m not expecting a single answer. But were their needs which religion met at one time but which it no longer meets? Does belief have much to do with why people are religious? Does that change from time to time? If it isn’t belief that matters, then what is it?
lonecat almost 9 years ago
I’m going to have to spend some time thinking about Baslim’s contribution, but in the meantime, I would note that different cultures have very different conceptions of “religion” and even within a single culture there can be widely different views. I work mostly on the ancient world; there was quite a range of attitudes and beliefs then. At a certain point there was a lot of skepticism, but even among the skeptics there were many who thought that religion, by which they meant mostly ritual practices, had social utility. Big transitiion: for other reasons I’ve been spending a lot of time lately reading nineteenth century English novels, and even though all the authors were at least notionally “Christian” they show very little concern with religion, and mostly they seem to feel that people who are very enthusiastic about religion are a little strange. But they would all agree that people should attend church, and mostly they would have disapproved of anyone questioning the fundamentals of Christianity.So from two very different times I would argue that religion was mostly a matter of social cohesion. But of course there are other times, times when people cared deeply about dogma.You say “[religion] provides understanding of the world, suggests hope for a future, and provides cohesiveness to society and self identity. Science now provides that understanding, politics provide that tribalistic cohesiveness and identity, economics provides hope and meaning. There’s just nothing left for religion to do; its roles have been usurped.” I can go along with most of this, but I’m not sure that economics provides hope and meaning; certainly not for me. And also there are also a fair number of people who don’t find that science, politics, and economics are sufficient. Why does your trinity work for some and not for others?
lonecat almost 9 years ago
I’m sure you’re right about the religious feelings of soldiers in the civil war, and in many other wars. No doubt people in extreme situations look for psychic support wherever they can find it. But that doesn’t mean that in day-to-day life they would have strong religious feelings. But as I said above, clearly some people do. The supports Hiram mentioned (science, politics, and economics) work for some people some times, but not for all people all the time. Are the differences simply a matter of individual psychology?
lonecat almost 9 years ago
Just something else to throw into the pot, if this pot is still on the burner. I know a lot of people who have no interest in the mainstream religions, but who do have an interest in various alternative religions or practices or what have you. My brother-in-law has been attending something called “A Course in Miracles”; my sister is a follower of a Chinese master, I have friends who are part of a Gurdjieff group; in addition, I know lots of people who devote their time to various fringe political/social organizations, which aren’t really much different from religions. All these people are looking for meaning, and they don’t find that the mainstream religions provide that meaning for them.