Michael Ramirez for October 25, 2013

  1. Cylonb
    Mephistopheles  over 10 years ago

    There is a growing group in society that feel like they are being left behind in this economy and resent the fact that some are continuing to thrive and prosper.

    Obama has tapped into that resentment and convinced them that there resentment is justified and they would be better off if those 1% were divested of their wealth for the good of the other 99%.

    Now you see the danger of a Government that is allowed to tax and redistribute. It seems Noble, and nice and the right thing to do because we are taking care of those less capable. But those that are reaping the benefits of this largess are greatful to the Government and not to the people living sufficiently below their means to carry those unable or unwilling to work.

    This misery will continue until the Resentful class figures out that if they want to be successful then they are going to have to do the things that successful people do which means: Going to work, Living within their means, setting aside money for a rainy day, only having children when they can afford them and only having as many children as they can afford, avoiding vices that deplete their resources i.e. Drugs, Gambling, Alcohol, Smoking, etc.

    I can see why Obama’s message would be so popular amongst the Resentful class. He tells them that it’s not their fault, that they just didn’t get a fair break, that someone else really should have to pay for their mistakes.What Juvenile doesn’t want to hear that message.But the adult recognizes that you can only burden the smart and industrious people for so long before they start spending some of their intellectual capital on keeping what is rightfully theirs.

    The bright note in this is that Obama is a weak, ineffectual president and soon we will be rid of him one way or another. I am optimistic about a future 3 years away.

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  2. Cylonb
    Mephistopheles  over 10 years ago

    @TheTrustedMechanic

    When I look around my community I see a common dividing line between those that are thriving and those that are struggling – Personal responsibliity.

    I see a lot of people doing just fine in todays economy. We would all like to do better but my neighbors, family, co-workers are doing the right thing: Going to work, living within their means, supporting their community.

    Those that I see struggling are the ones that made aggregious errors in their past: Quitting school, getting involved in drugs and alcohol, committing crimes, etc.

    Now, it seems, You would like to erase the moral hazard associated with making poor choices. Which, in turn, will lead to more people making more poor choices if they don’t have to bear the consequences.

    The Jobs are out there – I opened up the newspaper this morning and saw pages of them but most of them require at least some modium of training. The opportunity to be a citizen and support your communit is available every day. Or the people you wish to exhalt can continue to languish in the shadows of this economy waiting for the Democrats to loot the producers to give them their due.

    The Corporate greed that you decry – Getting as much production out of workers as is legally possible and producing a product for which you can charge as much as the market will bear serves this country well. It creates goods and services that the rest of us avail ourselves of. And provides wealth growth and dividends to those of us who had the forethought to put some of our earnings aside in investments to tide us over when we are too old to work or to tired to work.

    You seem to have little understanding of how economics work. Communism never works and socialism is little better. The best way to unfetter the creativeity and motivation of the producers is to allow them to keep the fruits of their labor. Regan knew that and it churned up this economy back when it was in the doldrums of the early 80s due to Carter.

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  3. Catinma
    BeniHanna6 Premium Member over 10 years ago

    As usual those that see their arguments falling apart and their shining leader showing his major flaws and failures, fall back once more on ye old slavery issue.

    Quote: “What I get out of this is that Jefferson was a hypocrite. “All men are are created equal” except the ones he owned.”

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  4. Catinma
    BeniHanna6 Premium Member over 10 years ago

    Giving people something without them earning it only makes them lazy and demanding more. All you have to do is look at your own children. When you finally cut the apron strings, that is when they grow up.

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    TCulberson  over 10 years ago

    Most of the 1% are new, Steve Jobs, Buffett, et al created their wealth because they could work hard in a country with free movement between classes. In Obamerica if you try to be special or expect honest wages for honest work the pack of hyenas will pull you down.

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    TCulberson  over 10 years ago

    So a left wing Socialist Council would be better? yeah, there has been success stories with those leaders

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    HouseApe  over 10 years ago

    “I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions, but laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.” – Thomas Jefferson

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    Uncle Joe Premium Member over 10 years ago

    Ramirez should include the whole quote. After decades of broken politics in Washington, and eight years of failed policies from George W. Bush, and 21 months of a campaign that’s taken us from the rocky coast of Maine to the sunshine of California, we are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America.For those of us who had any hope that Obama would be more than the centrist, pro-corporate guy that he is, the rest of the quote has turned out to be disappointing.In five days, you can turn the page on policies that put greed and irresponsibility on Wall Street before the hard work and sacrifice of folks on Main Street. In five days, you can choose policies that invest in our middle class, and create new jobs, and grow this economy, so that everyone has a chance to succeed, not just the CEO, but the secretary and janitor, not just the factory owner, but the men and women on the factory floor. In five days, you can put an end to the politics that would divide a nation just to win an election, that tries to pit region against region, and city against town, and Republican against Democrat, that asks — asks us to fear at a time when we need to hope.

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    Uncle Joe Premium Member over 10 years ago

    In Jefferson’s time, Obama’s parent’s marriage would not have been recognized & the child sold into slavery. If going from that to electing such a man President, isn’t fundamental transformation, I don’t know what is.

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    Dtroutma  over 10 years ago

    “All men” in Jefferson’s day meant white, wealthy, land (and slave) owners, period, no women or “commoners”. That’s exactly the apparent designation of today’s Republican Party.

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    dzw3030  over 10 years ago

    Jefferson was a product of his times. He did start the process of changing the system so cut the man’s memory some slack. Every journey starts with the first step. Enjoy the day… SSJ

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    David Riedel Premium Member over 10 years ago

    To say nothing of the conservatives.

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    Uncle Joe Premium Member over 10 years ago

    Barack Obama’s parents were not married.Not true, but even if your claim that the marriage wasn’t real, does this somehow refute my point? Obama Sr. could not have married Ms. Dunham in 7 of the original 13 states. Children of inter-racial relationships were routinely put in slavery. Even in the states that did not have laws on the books, such couples were frowned upon.The fact that you’re more concerned about whether Obama’s parents were legally married, than you are with the evil done by early Americans says a lot about your values. Leave no stone unturned or unthrown, as long as you think it reflects badly on Obama.

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  14. Cylonb
    Mephistopheles  over 10 years ago

    @I play one – I’m sure we can all find annecdotes of people who got rich through good luck and people who have become destitute because of bad luck.

    So does that mean, in your mind, that we should circumvent capitalism and find some political way to distribute capital?

    Those who work hard and exhibit personal responsiblility generally do fairly well. It’s rare to see somoene like that become fabulously wealthy but it’s rarer still to see such an individual become destitute.

    You see injustice out there, I get that, you have friends or acquaintenances that have fallen on harder times then you think they deserve. I get that too. What I don’t get is why you feel entitled to take from someone who earned more and give it to them? If you want to give those people your money I applaud you and encourage you. If you want to take from others by force of government to give to them I call you a looter and thug.

    If you really want to help your friends and neighbors then support a government policy of creating infrastructure and opportunities that the industrious can use to support themselves.

    I live in the real world just like you. I wasn’t born with a silver spoon in my mouth and I work hard every day to support my family (A labor of love and pride). I give of my time, talent and income to church, community and civic organizations because I want to see the people around me succeed. But I resent a Federal government that robs my neighbors and me of funds that could be used locally and hands them out to rabble in other communitites without even attempting to make sure the money is being used wisely or even appropriately.

    You think the head of FEMA handled the Katrina situation badly – So do I. He did a terrible job and should have been fired and maybe thrown in Jail. Right next to a bunch of those thugs that were raping women in the Superdome. But I would argue that FEMA is not an appropriate function of the Federal government. It just becomes one more way for the Federal government to take money from one group and use it to help another.

    You see the world as a cruel and unfair place – probably because you don’t think you have gotten a fair shake. I see the world as exciting and full of opportunities – because I am smart enough and capable enough to take advantage of those opportunities when they come along. Your perspective doesn’t give you the right to stick your hands in my pockets and dole out the money no matter how many voters agree with you.

    Taxing people to support the legitimate functions of government is an appropriate activity for government.Taxing people so the money can be handed out as vote buying largess to those who cannot or will not live as adult citizens is morally wrong.

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    Uncle Joe Premium Member over 10 years ago

    …they still have Slavery in Kenya and other African Nations.Slavery is just as illegal in Kenya as it is here & every other nation on the Earth. Kenya actually has fewer problems with illegal trafficking than most of Africa. There is still illegal trafficking going on in the U.S., so get off your high horse, Harley.

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  16. Cylonb
    Mephistopheles  over 10 years ago

    @Uncle Joe – I won’t speak for Ms. Quinn but I don’t think she was saying Kenya was worse – just pointing out that it’s still prevalent.

    But since we are on the subject of Slavery – I would like to leave you all with something to think about.

    I think we can all agree that Slavery is wrong because we are robbing an individual of their freedom and of their ability to enjoy the fruits of their labor.

    Isn’t that exactly what the Democrats and liberals are trying to shame the producers into doing voluntarily? Isn’t that the message coming from the left. “You need to pay more in taxes so we can help these people with: SS, Medicare, Medicaid, Foodstamps, Housing Assistance, Disability Insurance, etc. etc. etc.” And if you don’t volunteer we will just say majority rules and the majority decided you should pay more because we can’t afford it. That is exactly what the Left wants to do is enslave the producers to satisfy the needy and the incapable.

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    Uncle Joe Premium Member over 10 years ago

    No, it was individuals who paid their own way. It was those who paid into the system. No “color” was ever in those papers. no mention of man nor women. It was an all inclusive.Women were expressly denied the vote by law. The term “Free men” was interpreted quite literally. Black freedmen were allowed to vote in most states immediately after the revolution, but many states passed laws prohibiting any non-whites from voting. Most states had laws requiring property ownership or passing a literacy test in order to vote.This not only eliminated most freedmen, it also eliminated many white men. My take, is that voting was generally restricted to white men with some affluence. The few exceptions only serve to highlight that fact.From the original Ohio Constitution: In all elections, all white male inhabitants above the age of twenty-one years, having resided in the State one year next preceding the election, and who have paid or are charged with a State or county tax, shall enjoy the right of an electorSouth Carolina: That no free negro, free mulatto, or free person of mixed blood, descended from negro ancestors to the fourth generation inclusive, (though one ancestor of each generation may have been a white person,) shall vote for members of the Senate or House of Commons.Pennsylvania: In elections by the citizens, every white freeman of the age of twenty-one years, having resided in the State one year, and in the election district where he offers to vote, ten days immediately proceeding such election, and within two years paid a State or county tax, which shall have been assessed at least ten days before the election, shall enjoy the rights of an elector.Misissippi: Every free, white male person of the age of twenty-one years or upwards, who shall be a citizen of the United States, and shall have resided in this State one year next preceding an election, and the last six months within the county, city, or town, in which he offers to vote, and shall be enrolled in the militia thereof, except exempted by law from military service; or, having the aforesaid qualifications of citizenship and residence, shall have paid a State or county tax, shall be deemed a qualified elector

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  18. Birthcontrol
    Dtroutma  over 10 years ago

    Harley: actually, a number of those on Spanish ships before the English arrived were slaves, white slaves, of white men. I know well the story of “indentured servitude” which was the word for “white slaves” in the “colonies”. Also Junipero Serra made slaves of most of the native tribal people he encountered and “saved” many of their souls by working to them to death, or outright killing them if they refused to “accept Jesus”. (Other Jesuits did the same thing in South America, as well as all other Spanish “colonies”.)

    Jefferson favored democracy, and wasn’t personally against giving women rights, but that didn’t “ring true” with the culture of the time, just as most “Christian nations” did at the time!

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  19. Cylonb
    Mephistopheles  over 10 years ago

    @Trusted Mechanic – Fair enough, perhaps my spelling could use some improvement .

    As for compassion and an understanding of how the world works…I have plenty of the former when I think the recipient is worthy and I think my years on earth give me the ability to claim the latter.

    You can deflect all you want but at the end of the day you are still advocating the theft of honest earnings from one group to improve the lives of another group. How do you justify that? You call it compassion but since it costs you nothing it’s not really compassion but some facsimile of the real thing.

    You don’t have THE perspective on how the world works. You have A perspective based on your own personal experiences.

    I want the Federal government to stay out of the Robin Hood business for me and everyone else and you seem to think that the Federal Government doesn’t steal enough. I wonder which one of us can claim the moral high ground.

    Come up with a compelling argument for Robin hood and maybe we can talk. Pseudo-compassion (as you seem filled to the brim with) doesn’t count.

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  20. Cylonb
    Mephistopheles  over 10 years ago

    @Trusted Mechanic – Fair enough, perhaps my spelling could use some improvement .

    As for compassion and an understanding of how the world works…I have plenty of the former when I think the recipient is worthy and I think my years on earth give me the ability to claim the latter.

    You can deflect all you want but at the end of the day you are still advocating the theft of honest earnings from one group to improve the lives of another group. How do you justify that? You call it compassion but since it costs you nothing it’s not really compassion but some facsimile of the real thing.

    You don’t have THE perspective on how the world works. You have A perspective based on your own personal experiences.

    I want the Federal government to stay out of the Robin Hood business for me and everyone else and you seem to think that the Federal Government doesn’t steal enough. I wonder which one of us can claim the moral high ground.

    Come up with a compelling argument for Robin hood and maybe we can talk. Pseudo-compassion (as you seem filled to the brim with) doesn’t count.

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  21. Marx lennon
    charliekane  over 10 years ago

    BTW, I am a great fan of TJ. I am endlessly amused by the love he gets from the modern con.Two of my favorite quotations appear inside his Washington memorial. I present them in enhanced, original form. As a riposte to our cartoonist:“I am certainly not an advocate for frequent and untried changes in laws and constitutions. I think moderate imperfections had better be borne with; because, when once known, we accommodate ourselves to them, and find practical means of correcting their ill effects. But I know also, that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors." – Jefferson to H. Tompkinson (AKA Samuel Kercheval), July 12, 181610TJ’s sayings are given the status of holy scripture. Unchangable and unerring. But then again he is telling us that isn’t so. TJ is about the ability of the individual to secure these things that our cartoonist holds dear. In the 18th and 19th centuries, the individual might best achieve happiness freed of the burdens of class and despotism. I’d say the New Deal helped us achieve his goals. And a time travelling TJ might very well share Robert Reich’s concern with the erosion of the quality of middle class life in our century. A great mind like TJ’s would take on the great issues of day. Over time, these change.With regard to slavery, this slaveholder said:“For in a warm climate, no man will labour for himself who can make another labour for him. This is so true, that of the proprietors of slaves a very small proportion indeed are ever seen to labor. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever . . . .” – Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII5“The whole commerce between master and slave is a perpetual exercise of the most boisterous passions, the most unremitting despotism on the one part, and degrading submissions on the other. Our children see this, and learn to imitate it. . . .” – Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII6

    Though it was intellectually repugnant, he could not act to free himself free from it.

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  22. Marx lennon
    charliekane  over 10 years ago

    Those Democrat masters became Republicans over the past 50 or so years. You know, that Southern Strategy thing. . .

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    Captain Colorado  over 10 years ago

    Can’t improve on what God has made.

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  24. Cylonb
    Mephistopheles  over 10 years ago

    @The-Trusted-mechanic

    Your harping about how the owners get an unfair share of the wealth is a tiresome rehash of Karl Marx’s Das Capital.

    He too advocated that the Capital should be liberated from the bougeoise and redistributed to the masses. Lennin and Stalin implemented that idea and it failed miserably.It was repeated in North Korea and Cuba (Two Stellar Nations) and is being tried to a lesser extent in Nicaragua.Where ever Marx’s ideas go misery follows.

    If you work hard and work smart you can get ahead. That isn’t just my experience, it is the experience of my neighbors and co-workers and peers as well.

    I have to wonder what career path you chose to make you so pessimistic about your opportunities to get ahead.

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  25. Cylonb
    Mephistopheles  over 10 years ago

    @Night-guant49First allow me to appreciate your understanding of Darwin’s study. Evolution does favor those best able to adapt as the environment changes around them.

    But I think you are WRONG if you think it doesn’t apply to people in societies.

    Let me explore that idea for a moment.

    When an environment is in homeostasis – those creatures best able to take advantage of the current environment survive and reproduce.

    But when the environment changes or is placed under stress it is the adaptable creatures that thrive. As cities created sub-burbs the bears, wolfs, etc. (alpha-predators) were forced out but the Coyotes, Raccoons, Oppossums switched from carrion and flora to living out of garbage cans.

    When a Society and culture is in homeo-statis which ours pretty much was from the mid 90’s to the late 2000s those who could create and produce within those confines were doing fine. The lady who worked at the local Border’s books had a job selling books; the guy who built shopping malls had a job laying brick and mortar, the guy mining coal made a good wage pulling coal out of the ground.

    Then a change came (It doesn’t matter whose fault it was and I really don’t care). Borders and many stores went out of business, there existed a surplus of shopping malls and storefronts, and Fraking produced cheap natural gas which made dirty coal plants anathema in many communities. All of those people lost their jobs. Many people lost their jobs around my community.

    But adaptability was and is the key to survivability. If all the Borders clerk knew how to do was cashier and stock shelves she probably didn’t see a lot of other opportunities out there. If all the builder knew how to make was shopping malls he probably found few knew projects. If all the coal miner knew how to do was dig coal he saw his livelyhood evaporate and it will NEVER come back to pre 2000 times.But some had additional training or sought additional training to make themselves valuable in the workforce again. Guess what – those people are doing OK.

    The last time I checked the statistics:15% or 16% of highschool droppouts were without jobs.8% of all seeking work were without jobs (it’s a little lower now)4% of people with BS degrees are without jobs2% of people with Advanced degrees are without jobs.

    The environment has changed and those best suited to a knowledge economy are still doing OK. We would all like to see things be better but I don’t think that is going to happen given the political climate in Washington. I blame both parties but I resent a President who exploits the misery of the unemployed by telling them it’s the fault of some anonymous banker.

    Social Darwinisim isn’t about Race and it isn’t about Gender,

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  26. Cylonb
    Mephistopheles  over 10 years ago

    @Night-gaunt 49 As to your comment about wages not going up since the 70s. Maybe that’s true in your neighborhood but I see plenty of people thriving and growing.

    I worked in a grocery store in the 80s for $3.25 an hour stocking shelves and bagging groceries and thought I had all the money in the world.

    In the 90s I was working for a Fortune 100 company earning patents and developing the next generation of machinery. I have seen my wages grow well beyond inflation; exponentially. We can quibble over whether I was lucky to get that job or not (I hedged my bet by getting a degree in a highly demanded field and scoring top marks in a good school) but I then set about making myself extremely valuable to my employer. My employer is as exposed to the elements of Capitalism as any so to make myself more attractive if anything goes wrong I’ve continued to learn, and train achieving Masters degrees as well.

    This argument that there ain’t no more jobs out there or only the lucky few have them sounds like people who haven’t done the right things telling themselves that it’s not their fault.

    I have friends and family that went West to North Dakota and East to Pennsylvania to work in the Fraking fields. They didn’t get a college degree but they work incredibly hard long hours everyday and bring home a wage well beyond what most high school graduates are making. They wouldn’t agree with you that good pay isn’t out there to be had.

    To summarize – I have three kids. I’m teaching them to be smart, have a good work ethic, pick your career wisely, and delight your employer. I am optimistic for a future for them too.

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  27. Cylonb
    Mephistopheles  over 10 years ago

    @Trusted – So what you are saying is that your experience is representative of the real world and everybody else’s experiences and perspectives mean nothing. Now who is living in a tiny little fantasy.

    You are right – There are not many people who can do what I do which is why I am handsomely compensated for my work. But what gives those that don’t have my abilities the right to take the fruits of my labor from me and redistribute it amongst themselves? That is thuggery, looting, and theft.They may tell themselves they are doing it through majority rule but they are simply using the force of the government to enslave the working and the capable to meet their wants.When the US government taxes corporations (which are owned by individuals) and individuals and redistributes that wealth by some political process and not by the individual voluntarily giving up that wealth (as in charity) then the recipients of that largess are nothing better then accomplices to theft. I wonder how those same recipients would feel if a world government came in and took their possessions and redistributed to poorer people in third world countries. Being an American citizen should not entitle you take from others who you resent or feel got a better deal then you.

    You are right – The company wouldn’t exist without the workers but guess what. Those workers aren’t slaves. They can go somewhere else if they think their time and talents will be better appreciated else where. There are plenty of workers out there that are actually worth LESS then they make thanks to minimum wage laws. The free market is a very efficient and effective way of sorting out what is valued and what is not.

    And you are certainly right that many in this society don’t have the ability to live within their means, save for a rainy day and show personal responsibility. And they don’t have to because the Federal government steps in and removes the moral hazard (at the expense of those of us who pay the taxes). If you subsidize bad behavior you will get more bad behavior.

    You and I are talking past each other because you see every success story in terms of how lucky they got and every failure in terms of what bad luck befell them. I see success stories for the hard work and sacrifice that they required. For me failures are mistakes on the way to an objective or goal but as long as the individual keeps striving and working towards that goal they haven’t really failed.

    The real difference between you and me is:You exalt dependency, failure, and resentment.I celebrate the nobility of hard work, discipline, and citizenship.

    You can wrap yourself up in self-righteous, sanctimonious self-indulgence but at the end of the day you are nothing more then a mouthpiece for those who feel entitled to the honest work and ownership of others.

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    sdut sucks  over 10 years ago

    I think that so many of you so-called capitalists and wealth apologists are missing the point regarding the sharing of wealth. I, and most others, are not calling for the excess wealth of the 1% to be forcefully taken away, although it would be an improvement if they paid taxes commensurate of what they actually have, especially if it’s hidden away offshore, benefitting another country’s economy.My point, at least, is that the very wealthy should be WILLING to help the country that made them so wealthy. For example, why can’t the walmart heirs, worth a reported $18 billion each, at least pay wages and benefits that would allow their workers to enjoy a piece of the American dream? There are many working poor who work 40 hours a week and still have no hope for ever being able to own their own home. What’s right about that? Particularly, when the majority of the top 1% did not even earn their money; they inherited it. Is that work, or luck?You’l notice that I stated I’m not calling for the excess wealth of the 1% to be forcefully taken away. The problem is that if the wealth distribution in this country isn’t leveled soon, even just a little, we’ll become a third world country. In that case, the poor will storm the gates and forcefully take more than just the money.

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    Dtroutma  over 10 years ago

    Cora: I never realized Hitler was a mulatto, but he WAS a Roman Catholic!

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