While both parties use this topic as a way to scare their bases into taking actions, the Republicans are definitely riding this issue the hardest. For liberals to forget that the reason Republicans use this issue the way they do shows a lack of compassion and understanding for our neighbors. There are many good, compassionate people who are active in their communities and do wonderful things for the poor and disenfranchised. They go on mission trips to other nations and in addition to their religious activities, they also build homes, provide clean water, and teach farming techniques.These are GOOD people who believe in their SOULS that life begins at conception.There are even Republican senators and congressmen who believe life begins at conception. However, it is my own opinion that most elected conservatives use the issue to gain/retain power as it is a great motivator for the religious right.The topic of women’s rights/abortion is painful for me. I pray pro-life, but I vote pro-choice. As part of rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, and in the spirit of separation of Church and State, it is important that we keep a balance between what the society can do for its people who are born into it, and what we want to do for everyone who could be born into it. As we currently find ourselves unable to properly provide healthcare, educations, and nutrition to infants, children, teens, adults, and the aged, it seems unwise to force women who do not want to become parents to use scarce resources to feed, dress, and house another life.I wish our legislators would focus on jobs, education, healthcare, immigration, and the resolution of our military adventures overseas. I wish they would realize the need to create a system to pipe water away from flood areas and into drought areas. However,The job of the elected has become to stay elected and talking about jobs doesn’t help the Republicans as much as talking about abortion. The repair of the healthcare plan is less important than punishing women who are guilty of the crime of refusing to bear children they can’t afford.The only way to “end abortion” is to make it a crime for men to impregnate a woman unless he is prepared to be the father of any children born. No viagra for unmarried men. Jail time for men and women, and teenage boys and girls who fornicate – a form of reckless endangerment where sex is the crime.The religious right might find this a good option. But under the Constitution, and frankly, due to human nature, making sex a crime like it was a few decades ago would be unacceptable to a free people, some of whom do NOT believe in God.If the religious want to be respected and left to worship as they please, they have to respect the right of the non religious to live as they see fit as long as it only involves other consenting ADULTS. Pray for people, don’t prey on them.Respectfully,C.
As far as I’m concerned, politics and the government have no business telling a woman what she should do. It is her body!Yes, there is a need for condoms, birth control pills and other medication, but it is up to me to get them from my doctor (as long as this government will let him. :-( I loved the doctors who came to our house when I was a wee one. Don’t remember having any insurance, my parents paid him. We weren’t poor or wealthy… maybe considered upper middle class.
Many times in the past, Republicans controlled the House, the Senate, and the Presidency, and had a majority of Republican appointed Supreme Court Justices as well. With all three branches of government leaning to the right, they never came close to reversing Rowe v. Wade. It makes all of this hyperbole a little comical when viewed in that light, doesn’t it?
@Respectful TrollI want to differ on a point you made. You said you pray pro-life and vote pro-choice because you said render inter Caesar what is Ceasar’s because of separation of Church and State. That would imply that state owns women’s rights. The Ceasar statement refers to material things owned by State. However God made mankind in His own Image. Therefore, God wouldn’t want His image destroyed by abortion.
Abstinence. Works. Best. Sex is for PROcreation, not RECreation. We’ve made it a sport, we’ve cheapened its power to bond a married couple. He//, we’ve made it a political issue. We’ve even made it profitable. We push our kids into and then lament teen pregnancy. We’ve absolved men of their culpability for it. We’ve made it a woman’s issue when in reality, it is both partner’s responsibility, but in making it the woman’s issue, it takes the responsibility off of men’s shoulders. Why? Why do we want to play, and not pay? Because we are a selfish, self-centered pig-headed lot of “I want” brats. And our government is enabling us, simply because “they want” ultimate power. It needs to stop.Sex needs to return to the sacredness of the marriage bed instead of cheap entertainment for voyeurs and the depraved or a propraganda item for power-grabbers.
The sperm cell is alive. The ovum is alive. Even the bible recognizes that viablity outside the womd, or at least enough growth to provide for the “quickening” which they didn’t understand the biology of, is when a dog, cat, horse,or human is the life form in a real sense. Fertilization wasn’t really fully undestood until the mid-1800’s!
Politicians and “pro-lifers” are riding the pogo stick, and women should recognize Pogo was almost right, “We have seen the enemy, and it is THEM!”
Our society supports the chain of rape and incest, expects the woman/girl to carry/bear/rear the shameful result, blames her for being the victim and then abuses the child. No wonder our prisons are full of angry psychotic people
Well played, PianoGuy! I can appreciate your point. However, I would say that the Church has a ‘right’ of doctrine to promote a moral doctrine, but the state has a duty to protect citizens from doctrine as history has shown, and the present demonstrates, disagreements in doctrine too often leads to a dividing of neighbors, even death.I believe “Caesar” represents the things of the material world, including hubris, greed, and even lust. I also agree that God does not want his ‘image’ destroyed by abortion, But as Fourcrows said, would he want it destroyed by toxins in the womb, by hunger, by war, by negligence, and many many other ways we destroy our young?Give me five years where our society takes proper care of the people who have already been born and I believe you’ll find a society where abortion is nearly eliminated. I believe a healthy, happy, educated population is less likely to make bad choices.Thank you for the quality of your reply. Forgive me if I seem to be rationalizing, I just don’t see any easy to implement decisions that don’t make matters worse in one way or another.Very Respectfully,C. @dtroutma
Hey Trout,Bruce is right^http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Pogo2.jpg^Hope you and Bruce re having a good summer.C.
Agreed. It is so very strange that the most vocal, vociferous, and demanding people on the anti-abortion side are males. If you can’t “walk a mile in my shoes”, shut your mouth. I am quite sure that if we let women decide this issue, it won’t be nearly as acrimonious, and will probably provide a better result.
Last year, a legislature out west (I think it might have been Montana) had a woman introduce legislation that semen could be deposited nowhere else but a woman’s vagina, and that if it was put anywhere else, it would be subject to fine. I saw an interview with a male legislator who was vigorously anti-abortion, complaining about how no one should be able to tell him how he used his own body. Add comment here.
@Respectful TrollThank you for your complement. I have to say that in my rush to type, I wrote, “That would imply that states own women’s rights”. I had intended to say instead that that would imply that states own women’s BODIES. Ceasar (States) do NOT own women’s bodies. I do agree that the young need to be better taken care of. But I ask you, why should the innocent result, the baby, have to die because they MIGHT not have the best chances as another baby? History is full of good and bad choices, yes, but the unborn shouldn’t have to pay for it with their lives. I doubt people are going to stop having sex until that gets resolved.
@DocC1 – I know who God is by reading the Bible.2 – I know who I am. 3 – I do not confuse the two. God does indeed have a plan. And one of those plans can be found in Luke 17:2. And if God feels this way about a little one, just imagine how He feels about how the unborn are treated!
It becomes a little of both. God’s plan is that all creatures great and small survive. If a women and man commit sin when they have sex outside of marriage (if one believes in God) and the women then gets pregnant, it is the actions of sin and not God.
Now the women has the decision as to what to do about the outcome. I believe God would help the women if she keeps the child making good out of bad. She could adopt the child out after birth if she feels it would not be right to keep the child. If she chooses to sin again and have an abortion, it is not the fault of the Doctor.
As for miscarriages, it may the will of God or even Satan trying to defeat the faith of the parents to be. It may be that God felt that it was not the right time in the life of the parents to have a child, thus keeping them from a burden (money) or other problems.
Therefore it is not the will of God, but the outcome of a sin which God does not have planned. God’s plan was to never have babies born outside of marriage nor to have them killed in or outside of the womb. Those who have faith and believe in God, have a belief that only they will have.
War again is a issue derived from sin, coveting and/or non believers trying to keep religion from being available to those who chose to believe. Thus, again it is sin and not the will of God that brings the issue of bad things happening.
Sometimes believers are involved in things that end up killing them (auto accidents, war, violent acts) but it is not Gods will, but they have the peace and knowledge that they will enter into Heaven should they die.
Your response is as stupid as asking, “So, when did you stop beating your wife?” You’re either so dense that you don’t comprehend my answer, or you’re just a troll that’s just seeking arguments. As far as my belief in God, it’s as rock solid as ever!Romans 8:38-39 “38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”So, nice try, but no cee-gar!
I read an interesting book a couple a months ago, “Cannibals and Kings”, by Marvin Harris. He’s an anthropologist, and in this (non-technical) book he gives his overview of the historical development of human societies from a material point of view. He argues that there have been successive economic revolutions since the old stone age; each revolution has resulted in a population crisis, as the number of people born bumps up against economic resources. Eventually a new economic revolution allows for an increase in population, and then a new crisis, as the population hits a new wall. The solution to the crisis, he argues, in each historical period, is some kind of population control, such as war, human sacrifice, or infanticide. I was particularly interested in his description of Victorian foundling hospitals as institutions of infanticide — the mortality rate there was close to 100%, as everyone knew, but of course no one at the time thought that they had institutionalized a system of infanticide. (Think here of Oliver Twist.) Anyway, what you make of all this is up to you, but I thought Harris’ argument gave an interesting perspective to the discussion.
And if you think that is strong enough to sway me or make me feel that you did a “gotcha” on me….well….I wish you could see just how much I don’t care what you think. But if it makes you feel like you’ve accomplished something in your life today then, whatever. Go snicker now and wring your hands in glee. I’ll leave you in your little make believe world.
1. If men could get pregnant, abortion would not only be legal, but free.
2. I have misgivings about abortion, since in the dramatic view of religion, such as the Hindu, there are going to be souls who have need of a twisted, deprived, and thoroughly Dickensian life experience (need this one class to graduate), and should not be deprived of that opportunity, abhorrent as it may be to the rest of us.
Given all that (even as the father of 3 daughters, almost a fourth when the ex’s Huntington’s risk was revealed), I lack a Y chromosome to entitle me to a say in the matter.
If we turn the question on its head (often useful to verify the logic), should a woman be forced by law to have an abortion or (as many mental patients were, until quite recently) be sterilized by the State?
Search your own heart for the compassion to allow others to make their own decisions. May you find peace there.
@DrCanuckWonder what happened in your life to become such a vile, hateful, spiteful, venomous, cowardly attacker of Christians. You make derogatory blanket statements towards, and dismiss any well spoken explanation with snide rude comments. You really want to think Christians check their brains at the door? Then I challenge you to read “The Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel. Go on. I dare ya. You afraid of a challenge, or that you might actually be convinced? I say either put up, or shut up!
Ima (and others so inclined to ignore what commentators are actually saying): The largest living thing on on Earth, the giant sequoia, actually begins as one of the smallest seeds inn the plant world, which germinates only after fire releases it from the cone. That seed, even after germination, is NOT a functioning tree; likewise the early embryo and fetus is NOT a functioning mammal, or reptile, or avian.
The religious argument at hand in Congress, and legislatures, around the world actually, is the continuing biblical (and other religions as well) edict that MEN rule the world, and especially their possessions, such as their women.
The argument is not biological, but the tyranny of “faith” over facts.
@DrCanuckYeah, I figured that’s somewhat how you’d answer me. If you don’t read it yourself that’ll give you the ability to dismiss anything I point out with a snide comment and insult without even knowing what I’m referencing too. I’m not going to give you that power over me and allow you to think that you can just sit idly by while you think of your next chiding remark. The work goes both ways here, pal. You just said earlier that “Christians never dare to think. Too dangerous…stick their fingers in their ears”. Well, you’ve just proved that you do the same exact thing. Well, I discovered that you don’t dare put up. So, it’s time you shut up!
Apparently, you do not understand a loving God. He knows where we will end up because we have chosen to love and accept him as our Lord & Savior. His plan is that we end up with him in Heaven and so that is where I will be when I die. He loves me so much, he let’s me make my own decision but let’s me enjoy his Spirit in which Godly decisions are made. Sin is not from God nor is it his will. That “SIN” separates the World from God. Until a person accepts Jesus into their life, they will not know the difference. I suggest you take the chance to learn more about religion if you would like to truly understand how we can believe the way we do. May God touch your heart through the little bits you may get from those who believe and communicate with you.
You may not like this answer, but I believe that God’s will is to share his love with others and live a Godly Life while we are here on earth. I cannot say that I truly no my purpose nor when I will die. That is something only God knows.
Has he thwarted God’s will? It may seem that way, but we don’t know His will ourselves other than I know I’ll be in heaven when I die. Yes he may see the sin of a non-believer or the sinful act of one who confesses to know Him that may ultimately kill me as with many who believe or not. I am not here to judge God by the actions of those in this world. He has promised me what I believe in and he will make something good out of what we conceive to be bad.
To be honest, I would rather not be in this world as it is right now because of all of lawless violence. When we lose a loved one early in their life we ask why, it is not nor will it be till the end that we understand why.
You may want to believe that nothing ever happens to God’s people as I did when I was young. As I grew both as a human and in the wisdom of God, it was then that I began to understand that he does protect his people from many of the evil things in this world, but all He has ever promised and I believe is " John 3.14. God gave his Son so that I would not die in spirit but only in life. He understands how much we can take and knows how it will help us grow when things happen in this world. Satan if you believe or just non-believers get to do what they choose because they choose to do the things they do. If that is to cause chaos God helps his people to hold tight in there faith and know that good will come from the bad and he will help us through. As I say, God does not choose evil for his people though if we should die young or older, it is that we know that we will end up in Heaven with him.
I am not sure if that answers your question or not, but fear not, there should be many people who might have one that explains it better.
Why would I recommend a book for you to read that I haven’t read myself? You just obviously don’t want to read it. You might then just have to face something you don’t want to if you do.
Ok, now you’re playing semantics. Even without asking a question, you’re still dodging what I’ve asked you to do. I’ve said to read that book. You keep sidestepping it then accuse me that I have problems with my faith. And by the way, I DID ask you a question. I asked what happened in your life to treat Christians this way. Still waiting. You’re sidestepping.
Let me start by pulling the following from my reply above that I thought touched on it.
Has he thwarted God’s will?
It may seem that way, but we don’t know His will ourselves other than I know I’ll be in heaven when I die. Yes he may see the sin of a non-believer or the sinful act of one who confesses to know Him that may ultimately kill me as with many who believe or not.
You may not like this answer, but I believe that God’s will is to share his love with others and live a Godly Life while we are here on earth. I cannot say that I truly know my purpose nor when I will die. That is something only God knows.
As I say, God does not choose evil for his people though if we should die young or older, it is that we know that we will end up in Heaven with him.
~ ~ ~
Now let me try and clarify it better.
It is “God’s Will” that all people would come to know Him and accept Him as Lord and Savior.
It is “God’s Will” that I walk with Him till I am with him in Heaven.
It is “God’s Will” that I share His word while I am here on earth.
It is “God’s Will” that you too would come to know and love Him and have everlasting life. Do you not believe God can love you unconditionally?
It is “God’s Will” that we obey the law and commandments.
I was raped at the age of 14 yrs old by a person at the church I was attending. To me at that age it was murder, if not physically, it was mentally. I questioned how could God let this happen. I know that was not God’s will, but was not going to let it take away the love God had for me. Because I believed myself to be gay since I was 10 yrs old, due to pressures from my Christian family I was married at 27 yrs old and have a 22yr old son. I am now divorced though. I am now 51 yrs old and learned to forgive and walk with God. It is the sins of this world that take people away from God’s will.
May I ask what physically happened (does not have to be detailed , but summarized as I alluded to about myself) to make you so angry and hurt by Christians?
So, Has he thwarted God’s will?
No, I will be with God in Heaven when I die. I am sharing His word. I am loved by God.
@DrCanuckTo ANSWER your question: I have not rejected reality. I’ve rejected your delusion. I HAVE however seen the Truth of God’s word. That’s my reality! I don’t need another book to clarify my faith other than the Bible. The book I recommended to you are for people like you that have doubts. Also, I would reject that those people who attacked you were Christians at ALL. Kinda sad how you take false people that treated you wrong then assumed all Christians in essense were all the same kind of people.
I have never once said I don’t understand my faith and said I don’t understand it. Now I know you’re avoiding. And furthermore, you’ve got pretty thin skin. My faith must really scare you for you to keep trying to tell me what my own strengths and weaknesses are. Project much?
Apparently you do not know the God that I and many others do. As you continue to believe our God wills evil upon the world and His people and does not have the ability to intervene if needed.
You also believe that evil changes God’s will. God’s will is as I explained above to which you reply and did not wish to share the issues that cause you to believe your way to be true. I do not know if you thought you knew God’s will for you and those things made changes that you felt didn’t lead where you wanted. If this were not true, you would forgive, believe that God with His peace and comfort can replace the hurt and pain you say you received so that you can move beyond it and let him lead instead of trying to lead God.
You say that I do not address your question, but I have, and you choose it to be unacceptable.My God is all powerful, all knowing and omnipresent. Evil may change our lives, but it does not and cannot change His will. We allow his will to change as you have done by turning away, He did not. You will say then His will has been changed. I say, no it has not changed.
I am not making an assertion here, as much as trying to figure out your situation. If he knew you were not going to accept Him for what He is and can do,(only you and God know this for sure) maybe you never knew Him or did not accept his Son, Jesus, as your Lord and Savior. Therefore what you thought was his will was never his will and He is still waiting for you to allow Him into your heart.
As I have have said, I am spreading His word, I am walking with Him, He is leading me on His path and He gives me peace and freedom to choose where I want to be. You may be caught up in the Darwinism way of thinking. If you cannot touch it or prove it, it must not be true. I am not sure why you think we should turn our back on God and displease Him by accepting your way of thinking. If this is the case, you are trying to change the will of God as you believe it to be.
My God gives a Spirit of discernment that tells us when evil is present and trying to tempt us into doing the wrong thing. Also, he tells us, “whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet”, I also believe it applies in this circumstance. I believe that to be what we are up against in this situation. I have felt it many times while responding to you, but have let it pass in order to see if God’s light could be shed upon your fears and the things that have led you to where you are.
As God asks of us, and I will continue to do. I will pray that the seeds that have been sown in these responses from me and those who have attempted the same will be nourished through the love of our God and begin to grow so that you may find yourself in the comfort and presence of the Almighty God who reigns forever.
Hawthorne almost 11 years ago
Uh huh. In a nutshell.
chazandru almost 11 years ago
While both parties use this topic as a way to scare their bases into taking actions, the Republicans are definitely riding this issue the hardest. For liberals to forget that the reason Republicans use this issue the way they do shows a lack of compassion and understanding for our neighbors. There are many good, compassionate people who are active in their communities and do wonderful things for the poor and disenfranchised. They go on mission trips to other nations and in addition to their religious activities, they also build homes, provide clean water, and teach farming techniques.These are GOOD people who believe in their SOULS that life begins at conception.There are even Republican senators and congressmen who believe life begins at conception. However, it is my own opinion that most elected conservatives use the issue to gain/retain power as it is a great motivator for the religious right.The topic of women’s rights/abortion is painful for me. I pray pro-life, but I vote pro-choice. As part of rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, and in the spirit of separation of Church and State, it is important that we keep a balance between what the society can do for its people who are born into it, and what we want to do for everyone who could be born into it. As we currently find ourselves unable to properly provide healthcare, educations, and nutrition to infants, children, teens, adults, and the aged, it seems unwise to force women who do not want to become parents to use scarce resources to feed, dress, and house another life.I wish our legislators would focus on jobs, education, healthcare, immigration, and the resolution of our military adventures overseas. I wish they would realize the need to create a system to pipe water away from flood areas and into drought areas. However,The job of the elected has become to stay elected and talking about jobs doesn’t help the Republicans as much as talking about abortion. The repair of the healthcare plan is less important than punishing women who are guilty of the crime of refusing to bear children they can’t afford.The only way to “end abortion” is to make it a crime for men to impregnate a woman unless he is prepared to be the father of any children born. No viagra for unmarried men. Jail time for men and women, and teenage boys and girls who fornicate – a form of reckless endangerment where sex is the crime.The religious right might find this a good option. But under the Constitution, and frankly, due to human nature, making sex a crime like it was a few decades ago would be unacceptable to a free people, some of whom do NOT believe in God.If the religious want to be respected and left to worship as they please, they have to respect the right of the non religious to live as they see fit as long as it only involves other consenting ADULTS. Pray for people, don’t prey on them.Respectfully,C.
rossevrymn almost 11 years ago
How bout just plain, real, morals?
Jason Allen almost 11 years ago
“Adoption.”Teaching responsible use of and making available birth control.
nanellen almost 11 years ago
As far as I’m concerned, politics and the government have no business telling a woman what she should do. It is her body!Yes, there is a need for condoms, birth control pills and other medication, but it is up to me to get them from my doctor (as long as this government will let him. :-( I loved the doctors who came to our house when I was a wee one. Don’t remember having any insurance, my parents paid him. We weren’t poor or wealthy… maybe considered upper middle class.
Darsan54 Premium Member almost 11 years ago
Totally agree with sentiment and this is one of the most disturbing – yet effective – images I have ever seen in a political cartoon.
midaswelby almost 11 years ago
Many times in the past, Republicans controlled the House, the Senate, and the Presidency, and had a majority of Republican appointed Supreme Court Justices as well. With all three branches of government leaning to the right, they never came close to reversing Rowe v. Wade. It makes all of this hyperbole a little comical when viewed in that light, doesn’t it?
Don Winchester Premium Member almost 11 years ago
@Respectful TrollI want to differ on a point you made. You said you pray pro-life and vote pro-choice because you said render inter Caesar what is Ceasar’s because of separation of Church and State. That would imply that state owns women’s rights. The Ceasar statement refers to material things owned by State. However God made mankind in His own Image. Therefore, God wouldn’t want His image destroyed by abortion.
Dreamcat almost 11 years ago
Abstinence. Works. Best. Sex is for PROcreation, not RECreation. We’ve made it a sport, we’ve cheapened its power to bond a married couple. He//, we’ve made it a political issue. We’ve even made it profitable. We push our kids into and then lament teen pregnancy. We’ve absolved men of their culpability for it. We’ve made it a woman’s issue when in reality, it is both partner’s responsibility, but in making it the woman’s issue, it takes the responsibility off of men’s shoulders. Why? Why do we want to play, and not pay? Because we are a selfish, self-centered pig-headed lot of “I want” brats. And our government is enabling us, simply because “they want” ultimate power. It needs to stop.Sex needs to return to the sacredness of the marriage bed instead of cheap entertainment for voyeurs and the depraved or a propraganda item for power-grabbers.
Dtroutma almost 11 years ago
The sperm cell is alive. The ovum is alive. Even the bible recognizes that viablity outside the womd, or at least enough growth to provide for the “quickening” which they didn’t understand the biology of, is when a dog, cat, horse,or human is the life form in a real sense. Fertilization wasn’t really fully undestood until the mid-1800’s!
Politicians and “pro-lifers” are riding the pogo stick, and women should recognize Pogo was almost right, “We have seen the enemy, and it is THEM!”
SusanCraig almost 11 years ago
Our society supports the chain of rape and incest, expects the woman/girl to carry/bear/rear the shameful result, blames her for being the victim and then abuses the child. No wonder our prisons are full of angry psychotic people
chazandru almost 11 years ago
Well played, PianoGuy! I can appreciate your point. However, I would say that the Church has a ‘right’ of doctrine to promote a moral doctrine, but the state has a duty to protect citizens from doctrine as history has shown, and the present demonstrates, disagreements in doctrine too often leads to a dividing of neighbors, even death.I believe “Caesar” represents the things of the material world, including hubris, greed, and even lust. I also agree that God does not want his ‘image’ destroyed by abortion, But as Fourcrows said, would he want it destroyed by toxins in the womb, by hunger, by war, by negligence, and many many other ways we destroy our young?Give me five years where our society takes proper care of the people who have already been born and I believe you’ll find a society where abortion is nearly eliminated. I believe a healthy, happy, educated population is less likely to make bad choices.Thank you for the quality of your reply. Forgive me if I seem to be rationalizing, I just don’t see any easy to implement decisions that don’t make matters worse in one way or another.Very Respectfully,C. @dtroutma
Hey Trout,Bruce is right^http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Pogo2.jpg^Hope you and Bruce re having a good summer.C.
parkerfields almost 11 years ago
Don’t forget the unborn baby’s rights. That baby has the right to life.
I Play One On TV almost 11 years ago
Agreed. It is so very strange that the most vocal, vociferous, and demanding people on the anti-abortion side are males. If you can’t “walk a mile in my shoes”, shut your mouth. I am quite sure that if we let women decide this issue, it won’t be nearly as acrimonious, and will probably provide a better result.
I Play One On TV almost 11 years ago
Last year, a legislature out west (I think it might have been Montana) had a woman introduce legislation that semen could be deposited nowhere else but a woman’s vagina, and that if it was put anywhere else, it would be subject to fine. I saw an interview with a male legislator who was vigorously anti-abortion, complaining about how no one should be able to tell him how he used his own body. Add comment here.
Don Winchester Premium Member almost 11 years ago
@Respectful TrollThank you for your complement. I have to say that in my rush to type, I wrote, “That would imply that states own women’s rights”. I had intended to say instead that that would imply that states own women’s BODIES. Ceasar (States) do NOT own women’s bodies. I do agree that the young need to be better taken care of. But I ask you, why should the innocent result, the baby, have to die because they MIGHT not have the best chances as another baby? History is full of good and bad choices, yes, but the unborn shouldn’t have to pay for it with their lives. I doubt people are going to stop having sex until that gets resolved.
Don Winchester Premium Member almost 11 years ago
@DocC1 – I know who God is by reading the Bible.2 – I know who I am. 3 – I do not confuse the two. God does indeed have a plan. And one of those plans can be found in Luke 17:2. And if God feels this way about a little one, just imagine how He feels about how the unborn are treated!
neuturn almost 11 years ago
It becomes a little of both. God’s plan is that all creatures great and small survive. If a women and man commit sin when they have sex outside of marriage (if one believes in God) and the women then gets pregnant, it is the actions of sin and not God.
Now the women has the decision as to what to do about the outcome. I believe God would help the women if she keeps the child making good out of bad. She could adopt the child out after birth if she feels it would not be right to keep the child. If she chooses to sin again and have an abortion, it is not the fault of the Doctor.
As for miscarriages, it may the will of God or even Satan trying to defeat the faith of the parents to be. It may be that God felt that it was not the right time in the life of the parents to have a child, thus keeping them from a burden (money) or other problems.
Therefore it is not the will of God, but the outcome of a sin which God does not have planned. God’s plan was to never have babies born outside of marriage nor to have them killed in or outside of the womb. Those who have faith and believe in God, have a belief that only they will have.
War again is a issue derived from sin, coveting and/or non believers trying to keep religion from being available to those who chose to believe. Thus, again it is sin and not the will of God that brings the issue of bad things happening.
Sometimes believers are involved in things that end up killing them (auto accidents, war, violent acts) but it is not Gods will, but they have the peace and knowledge that they will enter into Heaven should they die.
Don Winchester Premium Member almost 11 years ago
Your response is as stupid as asking, “So, when did you stop beating your wife?” You’re either so dense that you don’t comprehend my answer, or you’re just a troll that’s just seeking arguments. As far as my belief in God, it’s as rock solid as ever!Romans 8:38-39 “38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”So, nice try, but no cee-gar!
lonecat almost 11 years ago
I read an interesting book a couple a months ago, “Cannibals and Kings”, by Marvin Harris. He’s an anthropologist, and in this (non-technical) book he gives his overview of the historical development of human societies from a material point of view. He argues that there have been successive economic revolutions since the old stone age; each revolution has resulted in a population crisis, as the number of people born bumps up against economic resources. Eventually a new economic revolution allows for an increase in population, and then a new crisis, as the population hits a new wall. The solution to the crisis, he argues, in each historical period, is some kind of population control, such as war, human sacrifice, or infanticide. I was particularly interested in his description of Victorian foundling hospitals as institutions of infanticide — the mortality rate there was close to 100%, as everyone knew, but of course no one at the time thought that they had institutionalized a system of infanticide. (Think here of Oliver Twist.) Anyway, what you make of all this is up to you, but I thought Harris’ argument gave an interesting perspective to the discussion.
Don Winchester Premium Member almost 11 years ago
And if you think that is strong enough to sway me or make me feel that you did a “gotcha” on me….well….I wish you could see just how much I don’t care what you think. But if it makes you feel like you’ve accomplished something in your life today then, whatever. Go snicker now and wring your hands in glee. I’ll leave you in your little make believe world.
pbarnrob almost 11 years ago
1. If men could get pregnant, abortion would not only be legal, but free.
2. I have misgivings about abortion, since in the dramatic view of religion, such as the Hindu, there are going to be souls who have need of a twisted, deprived, and thoroughly Dickensian life experience (need this one class to graduate), and should not be deprived of that opportunity, abhorrent as it may be to the rest of us.
Given all that (even as the father of 3 daughters, almost a fourth when the ex’s Huntington’s risk was revealed), I lack a Y chromosome to entitle me to a say in the matter.
If we turn the question on its head (often useful to verify the logic), should a woman be forced by law to have an abortion or (as many mental patients were, until quite recently) be sterilized by the State?
Search your own heart for the compassion to allow others to make their own decisions. May you find peace there.
Don Winchester Premium Member almost 11 years ago
@DrCanuckWonder what happened in your life to become such a vile, hateful, spiteful, venomous, cowardly attacker of Christians. You make derogatory blanket statements towards, and dismiss any well spoken explanation with snide rude comments. You really want to think Christians check their brains at the door? Then I challenge you to read “The Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel. Go on. I dare ya. You afraid of a challenge, or that you might actually be convinced? I say either put up, or shut up!
Dtroutma almost 11 years ago
Ima (and others so inclined to ignore what commentators are actually saying): The largest living thing on on Earth, the giant sequoia, actually begins as one of the smallest seeds inn the plant world, which germinates only after fire releases it from the cone. That seed, even after germination, is NOT a functioning tree; likewise the early embryo and fetus is NOT a functioning mammal, or reptile, or avian.
The religious argument at hand in Congress, and legislatures, around the world actually, is the continuing biblical (and other religions as well) edict that MEN rule the world, and especially their possessions, such as their women.
The argument is not biological, but the tyranny of “faith” over facts.
Don Winchester Premium Member almost 11 years ago
@DrCanuckYeah, I figured that’s somewhat how you’d answer me. If you don’t read it yourself that’ll give you the ability to dismiss anything I point out with a snide comment and insult without even knowing what I’m referencing too. I’m not going to give you that power over me and allow you to think that you can just sit idly by while you think of your next chiding remark. The work goes both ways here, pal. You just said earlier that “Christians never dare to think. Too dangerous…stick their fingers in their ears”. Well, you’ve just proved that you do the same exact thing. Well, I discovered that you don’t dare put up. So, it’s time you shut up!
Don Winchester Premium Member almost 11 years ago
There’s been nothing respectful NOR thoughtful about your comments. If you want to think, then read that book…
neuturn almost 11 years ago
Apparently, you do not understand a loving God. He knows where we will end up because we have chosen to love and accept him as our Lord & Savior. His plan is that we end up with him in Heaven and so that is where I will be when I die. He loves me so much, he let’s me make my own decision but let’s me enjoy his Spirit in which Godly decisions are made. Sin is not from God nor is it his will. That “SIN” separates the World from God. Until a person accepts Jesus into their life, they will not know the difference. I suggest you take the chance to learn more about religion if you would like to truly understand how we can believe the way we do. May God touch your heart through the little bits you may get from those who believe and communicate with you.
neuturn almost 11 years ago
You may not like this answer, but I believe that God’s will is to share his love with others and live a Godly Life while we are here on earth. I cannot say that I truly no my purpose nor when I will die. That is something only God knows.
Has he thwarted God’s will? It may seem that way, but we don’t know His will ourselves other than I know I’ll be in heaven when I die. Yes he may see the sin of a non-believer or the sinful act of one who confesses to know Him that may ultimately kill me as with many who believe or not. I am not here to judge God by the actions of those in this world. He has promised me what I believe in and he will make something good out of what we conceive to be bad.
To be honest, I would rather not be in this world as it is right now because of all of lawless violence. When we lose a loved one early in their life we ask why, it is not nor will it be till the end that we understand why.
You may want to believe that nothing ever happens to God’s people as I did when I was young. As I grew both as a human and in the wisdom of God, it was then that I began to understand that he does protect his people from many of the evil things in this world, but all He has ever promised and I believe is " John 3.14. God gave his Son so that I would not die in spirit but only in life. He understands how much we can take and knows how it will help us grow when things happen in this world. Satan if you believe or just non-believers get to do what they choose because they choose to do the things they do. If that is to cause chaos God helps his people to hold tight in there faith and know that good will come from the bad and he will help us through. As I say, God does not choose evil for his people though if we should die young or older, it is that we know that we will end up in Heaven with him.
I am not sure if that answers your question or not, but fear not, there should be many people who might have one that explains it better.
God bless and keep you.
Don Winchester Premium Member almost 11 years ago
Why would I recommend a book for you to read that I haven’t read myself? You just obviously don’t want to read it. You might then just have to face something you don’t want to if you do.
Don Winchester Premium Member almost 11 years ago
Ok, now you’re playing semantics. Even without asking a question, you’re still dodging what I’ve asked you to do. I’ve said to read that book. You keep sidestepping it then accuse me that I have problems with my faith. And by the way, I DID ask you a question. I asked what happened in your life to treat Christians this way. Still waiting. You’re sidestepping.
neuturn almost 11 years ago
Let me start by pulling the following from my reply above that I thought touched on it.
Has he thwarted God’s will?
It may seem that way, but we don’t know His will ourselves other than I know I’ll be in heaven when I die. Yes he may see the sin of a non-believer or the sinful act of one who confesses to know Him that may ultimately kill me as with many who believe or not.You may not like this answer, but I believe that God’s will is to share his love with others and live a Godly Life while we are here on earth. I cannot say that I truly know my purpose nor when I will die. That is something only God knows.
As I say, God does not choose evil for his people though if we should die young or older, it is that we know that we will end up in Heaven with him.
~ ~ ~Now let me try and clarify it better.
It is “God’s Will” that all people would come to know Him and accept Him as Lord and Savior.
It is “God’s Will” that I walk with Him till I am with him in Heaven.
It is “God’s Will” that I share His word while I am here on earth.
It is “God’s Will” that you too would come to know and love Him and have everlasting life. Do you not believe God can love you unconditionally?
It is “God’s Will” that we obey the law and commandments.
I was raped at the age of 14 yrs old by a person at the church I was attending. To me at that age it was murder, if not physically, it was mentally. I questioned how could God let this happen. I know that was not God’s will, but was not going to let it take away the love God had for me. Because I believed myself to be gay since I was 10 yrs old, due to pressures from my Christian family I was married at 27 yrs old and have a 22yr old son. I am now divorced though. I am now 51 yrs old and learned to forgive and walk with God. It is the sins of this world that take people away from God’s will.
May I ask what physically happened (does not have to be detailed , but summarized as I alluded to about myself) to make you so angry and hurt by Christians?
So, Has he thwarted God’s will?
No, I will be with God in Heaven when I die. I am sharing His word. I am loved by God.
Don Winchester Premium Member almost 11 years ago
@DrCanuckTo ANSWER your question: I have not rejected reality. I’ve rejected your delusion. I HAVE however seen the Truth of God’s word. That’s my reality! I don’t need another book to clarify my faith other than the Bible. The book I recommended to you are for people like you that have doubts. Also, I would reject that those people who attacked you were Christians at ALL. Kinda sad how you take false people that treated you wrong then assumed all Christians in essense were all the same kind of people.
Don Winchester Premium Member almost 11 years ago
I have never once said I don’t understand my faith and said I don’t understand it. Now I know you’re avoiding. And furthermore, you’ve got pretty thin skin. My faith must really scare you for you to keep trying to tell me what my own strengths and weaknesses are. Project much?
neuturn almost 11 years ago
Apparently you do not know the God that I and many others do. As you continue to believe our God wills evil upon the world and His people and does not have the ability to intervene if needed.
You also believe that evil changes God’s will. God’s will is as I explained above to which you reply and did not wish to share the issues that cause you to believe your way to be true. I do not know if you thought you knew God’s will for you and those things made changes that you felt didn’t lead where you wanted. If this were not true, you would forgive, believe that God with His peace and comfort can replace the hurt and pain you say you received so that you can move beyond it and let him lead instead of trying to lead God.
You say that I do not address your question, but I have, and you choose it to be unacceptable.My God is all powerful, all knowing and omnipresent. Evil may change our lives, but it does not and cannot change His will. We allow his will to change as you have done by turning away, He did not. You will say then His will has been changed. I say, no it has not changed.I am not making an assertion here, as much as trying to figure out your situation. If he knew you were not going to accept Him for what He is and can do,(only you and God know this for sure) maybe you never knew Him or did not accept his Son, Jesus, as your Lord and Savior. Therefore what you thought was his will was never his will and He is still waiting for you to allow Him into your heart.
As I have have said, I am spreading His word, I am walking with Him, He is leading me on His path and He gives me peace and freedom to choose where I want to be. You may be caught up in the Darwinism way of thinking. If you cannot touch it or prove it, it must not be true. I am not sure why you think we should turn our back on God and displease Him by accepting your way of thinking. If this is the case, you are trying to change the will of God as you believe it to be.My God gives a Spirit of discernment that tells us when evil is present and trying to tempt us into doing the wrong thing. Also, he tells us, “whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet”, I also believe it applies in this circumstance. I believe that to be what we are up against in this situation. I have felt it many times while responding to you, but have let it pass in order to see if God’s light could be shed upon your fears and the things that have led you to where you are.
As God asks of us, and I will continue to do. I will pray that the seeds that have been sown in these responses from me and those who have attempted the same will be nourished through the love of our God and begin to grow so that you may find yourself in the comfort and presence of the Almighty God who reigns forever.
lonecat almost 11 years ago
I’d be willing to bet that DrC has read Aquinas.
lonecat almost 11 years ago
I have a lot of respect for Aquinas — a very smart fellow — but too often he starts out a inquiry with the answer already in mind.