Ramirez is probably right. And no gun control won’t stop another Sandy Hook, either. Does he have a suggestion to make? Perhaps a better gun control bill?
Sorry, your short memory is forgetting that the murderer was David Koresh. He told his followers to open fire on the agents at the door executing a legal search warrant. The fire that killed most of the people was started inside. Based on the amount of weapons available and the followers’ talk of “bringing Armageddon”, they were a genuine threat to the people of Waco. Would you have been okay with the federal government standing by and allowing them to attack the town? Sandy Hook would have been nothing compared to that.
Over the course of the seige, the people were given plenty of opportunity to leave peacefully. The fires started inside the compound. Koresh was killed by one of his own, probably after realizing he had been planning to sacrifice everyone all along. Because of the amount of weapons inside, the fire was unable to be fought. The ATF and FBI did not order the murder of anybody. It was a tragedy, yes, but these people likely killed themselves at Koresh’s behest, murdering their own children for the glory of a nutcase. It is no different than what Jim Jones did to his followers, or any other suicide/armageddon cultists.
That’s an apocryphal story not present in the radio transcripts, but has nothing to do with the point. If anything, it proves the danger of depending on armed civilians to protect the general public – if trained agents can make a mistake like that, what do you think would have happened in the Aurora movie theater? Things would have gotten much worse.
^M- 4 or M-16, or AR 15 fires a .223 or 5.56 mm round, not a .22.
Ramirez again misses the point. Large capacity SHORT BARREL weapons are concealable, and favored by crooks and “gang bangers”: high rate of fire, concealed on the street, and highly inaccurate, but put out lots of rounds.
Yes, most “mass shootings” are by mentally disturbed folks, but are gang bangers, or the Los Angeles Bank of America robbers who took on police with automatic, and semi-auto weapons, with BODY ARMOR, “crazy”??
Australia LIMITED firearms with mass capacity, and such insane acts have disappeared. Gun registration, and limits on automatic, or semi-auto weapons have REDUCED gun crime there, despite false claims on NRA supported sites.
I used an M-16, an M-60, and M-79, and a Remington 700 with bull barrel, a Model 1911 Colt pistol, and a Smith and Wesson Model 19 revolver, EFFECTIVELY, in the situation where they were authorized and “legal”. While the 60 was an automatic weapon, I never set the 16 to “auto”, and the 700 BDL was a highly effective BOLT ACTION weapon.
WHY do civilians in the U.S. have any rational need for these yes, “military grade” weapons? And yes, for definition, any weapon with a mass capacity (more than five for a rifle, or 12 for a .45 pistol) does become a “military” weapon.. While some 9mm pistols can carry 20 rounds, that’s for “police work” where confrontation with ARMED “bad guys” is likely, not “home defense”, target practice, or “varmint shooting”.
^^Rodent, I do know of firefighters injured by exploding ammunition, and reloading supplies improperly stored.
BTW, I do have substantial amounts of shotgun (sporting clays and hunting) and other ammunition, and store it in ammunition cans that at least reduce risk in the even of a fire.
The lie is in the words. Nothing can PREVENT another Sandy Hook, just like no traffic law can PREVENT another traffic death. Just as we have exams to weed out those incapable of operating a motor vehicle safely, and additional laws to weed out those who fail to obey speed limits, etc; laws can REDUCE the chance of another Sandy Hook by denying the mentally unstable easy access to firearms.
Any cartoonist who fails to recognize that fact is nothing but a cheap whore for the NRA pimp.
I was talking to my wife about this issue recently and there’s one other point we’re failing to see here. We always hear about how many murders, painfully reminded of how many children were killed, how many tragedies we have in our country… all of these are horrible and graphic events that reasonably should never have happened. But what we don’t hear about is how many home invasions are stopped, how many muggings were prevented, and how many murders were stopped because an armed and properly trained person presented lethal force against the criminal who was attempting to commit the crime. I have my ammunition locked up with a key that dangles on my dog tags. There is another hidden in a spot only my wife knows about, and it’s in a location where my children would have no reasonable cause to go look at. My children also were educated about the function of a weapon, and how they are not to disrespect the weapon. They also know that if they touch it without my consent, that rifle will quickly be converted to a club. While I’m exaggerating in that regard, they don’t know any better, and that’s with good reason. In response to the short-barrel issues, I believe most gang bangers use Mac-10’s and Uzi’s, weapons that can easily be converted to full-auto. They also use AK’s because they are cheap on the black market, which are also easily converted to full-auto. In both instances, the issue here is the full-auto, spray-and-pray methodology. When was the last time you heard about a gang-banger using an M4? You don’t, because one with military specs (1:7 rifling, chrome-lined and free-floating reinforced barrel, 5.56×45mm chambering, etc) is at least $1500, and that’s without optics or foregrip.. You can get 3-4 Mac-10’s or AK’s for that price. It’s also not as forgiving as those weapons. Trout probably can confirm that. So if you want to really stem the gang violence issue, cut down on those arms coming into the country (Uzi’s are Israeli-made, and AK’s are… well… everywhere). But they aren’t traditionally made here in the US. I have to believe border security and port security is part of the issue. It’s the illegal arms trade that I believe is fully to blame here for the level of firearm violence in our country. These tragedies like Sandy Hook are in a different category. And neither issues will be resolved by taking the firearms away from law-abiding citizens, and registering who owns them in the first place. I’ll give it an B for at least trying, but it’s missing the mark. If we really wanted to stop this, we need to secure our borders and ports, have better school/college-based involvement (because a lot of these events came from college-aged or younger people), get rid of the idiotic “Gun Free Zone” concept (like telling a fox that the door to the coop is unlocked), place armed security at all our vulnerable places (schools, colleges, hospitals, etc), encourage the use of metal detectors, and make CCW laws more sensible. These suggestions are deterrents for those who would commit the crime, and are pro-active. Why do we have smoke detectors? Why do we have CO detectors? Why do we have fire-retardant doors, drywall, and pajamas? Why do we have an exit plan that we drill on a regular basis for fires? And why is it that fire extinguishers are mandatory in just about every building in this country? It’s all because fires happen (a lot), and it is acknowledged that firefighters put out fires that are already there. It’s up to the owner of the premises to try to prevent loss of life as a result of a fire, or to put out the fire themselves. Why are we not empowering those same owners to protect their people on the premises from a criminal? We know the cops are there to pick up the pieces after a crime is committed, because they aren’t there to prevent the crime from occurring. It’s up to the individual to prevent a crime from occurring, and the only way to do that is to provide active deterrents, and provide a means of defense when those deterrents fail.
As pointed out by Fourcrows, you are incorrect in lumping the disaster of Waco in with these domestic terrorist massacres…The Feds were doing their jobs, and they were not committing murder. David Koresh and his demented followers chose to defy the law AND they chose to heavily arm themselves for their own self-avowed Armageddon. There is simply no basis whatsoever for finding any similarity between Waco and these mass shootings of unsuspecting innocents.The fire began inside the compound – probably set by Koresh or one of the mentally-disturbed residents there – the Feds didn’t start the situation, and they didn’t start the deadly fire. The Branch Davidians created the circumstances which spawned the fire.David Koresh was a messianic lunatic…if murders were committed within that compound, they are all on the head of Koresh, not the Federal Government. Unfortunately, 25 children died in that disaster – their deaths were caused by circumstances directly attributable to their parents an’ to Koresh and the group of lunatics he lead.
rockngolfer about 11 years ago
I see that someone deleted my “I Love Paris” parody yesterday.Hope a sufficient number enjoyed it before it was deleted.
lonecat about 11 years ago
Ramirez is probably right. And no gun control won’t stop another Sandy Hook, either. Does he have a suggestion to make? Perhaps a better gun control bill?
Chillbilly about 11 years ago
“Nothing” is a Republican keyword. Know nothing. Do nothing. Help nothing.
Fourcrows about 11 years ago
Sorry, your short memory is forgetting that the murderer was David Koresh. He told his followers to open fire on the agents at the door executing a legal search warrant. The fire that killed most of the people was started inside. Based on the amount of weapons available and the followers’ talk of “bringing Armageddon”, they were a genuine threat to the people of Waco. Would you have been okay with the federal government standing by and allowing them to attack the town? Sandy Hook would have been nothing compared to that.
Fourcrows about 11 years ago
Over the course of the seige, the people were given plenty of opportunity to leave peacefully. The fires started inside the compound. Koresh was killed by one of his own, probably after realizing he had been planning to sacrifice everyone all along. Because of the amount of weapons inside, the fire was unable to be fought. The ATF and FBI did not order the murder of anybody. It was a tragedy, yes, but these people likely killed themselves at Koresh’s behest, murdering their own children for the glory of a nutcase. It is no different than what Jim Jones did to his followers, or any other suicide/armageddon cultists.
nz4m60 about 11 years ago
…and Remerez, neither would you.
Fourcrows about 11 years ago
That’s an apocryphal story not present in the radio transcripts, but has nothing to do with the point. If anything, it proves the danger of depending on armed civilians to protect the general public – if trained agents can make a mistake like that, what do you think would have happened in the Aurora movie theater? Things would have gotten much worse.
Dtroutma about 11 years ago
^M- 4 or M-16, or AR 15 fires a .223 or 5.56 mm round, not a .22.
Ramirez again misses the point. Large capacity SHORT BARREL weapons are concealable, and favored by crooks and “gang bangers”: high rate of fire, concealed on the street, and highly inaccurate, but put out lots of rounds.
Yes, most “mass shootings” are by mentally disturbed folks, but are gang bangers, or the Los Angeles Bank of America robbers who took on police with automatic, and semi-auto weapons, with BODY ARMOR, “crazy”??
Australia LIMITED firearms with mass capacity, and such insane acts have disappeared. Gun registration, and limits on automatic, or semi-auto weapons have REDUCED gun crime there, despite false claims on NRA supported sites.
I used an M-16, an M-60, and M-79, and a Remington 700 with bull barrel, a Model 1911 Colt pistol, and a Smith and Wesson Model 19 revolver, EFFECTIVELY, in the situation where they were authorized and “legal”. While the 60 was an automatic weapon, I never set the 16 to “auto”, and the 700 BDL was a highly effective BOLT ACTION weapon.
WHY do civilians in the U.S. have any rational need for these yes, “military grade” weapons? And yes, for definition, any weapon with a mass capacity (more than five for a rifle, or 12 for a .45 pistol) does become a “military” weapon.. While some 9mm pistols can carry 20 rounds, that’s for “police work” where confrontation with ARMED “bad guys” is likely, not “home defense”, target practice, or “varmint shooting”.
Dtroutma about 11 years ago
^^Rodent, I do know of firefighters injured by exploding ammunition, and reloading supplies improperly stored.
BTW, I do have substantial amounts of shotgun (sporting clays and hunting) and other ammunition, and store it in ammunition cans that at least reduce risk in the even of a fire.
PlainBill about 11 years ago
The lie is in the words. Nothing can PREVENT another Sandy Hook, just like no traffic law can PREVENT another traffic death. Just as we have exams to weed out those incapable of operating a motor vehicle safely, and additional laws to weed out those who fail to obey speed limits, etc; laws can REDUCE the chance of another Sandy Hook by denying the mentally unstable easy access to firearms.
Any cartoonist who fails to recognize that fact is nothing but a cheap whore for the NRA pimp.
Wraithkin about 11 years ago
I was talking to my wife about this issue recently and there’s one other point we’re failing to see here. We always hear about how many murders, painfully reminded of how many children were killed, how many tragedies we have in our country… all of these are horrible and graphic events that reasonably should never have happened. But what we don’t hear about is how many home invasions are stopped, how many muggings were prevented, and how many murders were stopped because an armed and properly trained person presented lethal force against the criminal who was attempting to commit the crime. I have my ammunition locked up with a key that dangles on my dog tags. There is another hidden in a spot only my wife knows about, and it’s in a location where my children would have no reasonable cause to go look at. My children also were educated about the function of a weapon, and how they are not to disrespect the weapon. They also know that if they touch it without my consent, that rifle will quickly be converted to a club. While I’m exaggerating in that regard, they don’t know any better, and that’s with good reason. In response to the short-barrel issues, I believe most gang bangers use Mac-10’s and Uzi’s, weapons that can easily be converted to full-auto. They also use AK’s because they are cheap on the black market, which are also easily converted to full-auto. In both instances, the issue here is the full-auto, spray-and-pray methodology. When was the last time you heard about a gang-banger using an M4? You don’t, because one with military specs (1:7 rifling, chrome-lined and free-floating reinforced barrel, 5.56×45mm chambering, etc) is at least $1500, and that’s without optics or foregrip.. You can get 3-4 Mac-10’s or AK’s for that price. It’s also not as forgiving as those weapons. Trout probably can confirm that. So if you want to really stem the gang violence issue, cut down on those arms coming into the country (Uzi’s are Israeli-made, and AK’s are… well… everywhere). But they aren’t traditionally made here in the US. I have to believe border security and port security is part of the issue. It’s the illegal arms trade that I believe is fully to blame here for the level of firearm violence in our country. These tragedies like Sandy Hook are in a different category. And neither issues will be resolved by taking the firearms away from law-abiding citizens, and registering who owns them in the first place. I’ll give it an B for at least trying, but it’s missing the mark. If we really wanted to stop this, we need to secure our borders and ports, have better school/college-based involvement (because a lot of these events came from college-aged or younger people), get rid of the idiotic “Gun Free Zone” concept (like telling a fox that the door to the coop is unlocked), place armed security at all our vulnerable places (schools, colleges, hospitals, etc), encourage the use of metal detectors, and make CCW laws more sensible. These suggestions are deterrents for those who would commit the crime, and are pro-active. Why do we have smoke detectors? Why do we have CO detectors? Why do we have fire-retardant doors, drywall, and pajamas? Why do we have an exit plan that we drill on a regular basis for fires? And why is it that fire extinguishers are mandatory in just about every building in this country? It’s all because fires happen (a lot), and it is acknowledged that firefighters put out fires that are already there. It’s up to the owner of the premises to try to prevent loss of life as a result of a fire, or to put out the fire themselves. Why are we not empowering those same owners to protect their people on the premises from a criminal? We know the cops are there to pick up the pieces after a crime is committed, because they aren’t there to prevent the crime from occurring. It’s up to the individual to prevent a crime from occurring, and the only way to do that is to provide active deterrents, and provide a means of defense when those deterrents fail.
wronhewitt about 11 years ago
As pointed out by Fourcrows, you are incorrect in lumping the disaster of Waco in with these domestic terrorist massacres…The Feds were doing their jobs, and they were not committing murder. David Koresh and his demented followers chose to defy the law AND they chose to heavily arm themselves for their own self-avowed Armageddon. There is simply no basis whatsoever for finding any similarity between Waco and these mass shootings of unsuspecting innocents.The fire began inside the compound – probably set by Koresh or one of the mentally-disturbed residents there – the Feds didn’t start the situation, and they didn’t start the deadly fire. The Branch Davidians created the circumstances which spawned the fire.David Koresh was a messianic lunatic…if murders were committed within that compound, they are all on the head of Koresh, not the Federal Government. Unfortunately, 25 children died in that disaster – their deaths were caused by circumstances directly attributable to their parents an’ to Koresh and the group of lunatics he lead.
Kim0158 Premium Member about 11 years ago
Silly people. . . you can’t legislate away evil. It exists no matter how many laws get passed.