State of the Union by Carl Moore

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Ronshua said, about 1 month ago

Yep clear , Cristal (methylenedioxymethamphetamine) clear !
DavidDow said, about 1 month ago

Another inadvertently significant cartoon: Carl Moore’s need to put words into the mouths of President Obama & Attorney General Holder and his need, without any proof, to label kidnapped men terrorists shows the weakness, the fundamental anti-American nature, of the Republicans’ pro-torture position.
toasteroven said, about 1 month ago

Ah, giant talking bobble-heads that vaguely resemble politicians. That’s the Carl Moore way.
scottfreitas said, about 1 month ago

Moore’s cartoon makes perfect sense. Kidnapped men? Whoever the hell DavidDow is, he deserves to have a US marine punch his lights out. Preferably one of countless US marines who barely survived being blown up by a roadside bomb, killed by a nearby bullet that just missed taking the back of his head off, etc
gbrucewilson said, about 1 month ago

DavidDow, If you are not joking, you are an idiot. Or did you forget to read the news on 9-11-01?
3hourtour said, about 1 month ago

..forget waterboarding..I say we just give them over to some third party country that tortures without whim…that’ll show those anti-American !@#$ terrorists{sorry I’m in troll mode today}…or…if the means always justifies the end then doesn’t that justify the terrorist’s actions?…oh..they are not us…I forgot that there are two sets of rules,ones for us and one for the rest of the world….
Lewreader said, about 1 month ago

Dunking , Waterboarding. Hope they got a lot of virgins up there.
Kees said, about 1 month ago

Ts Ts,Bold words everybody!
Somewhere in that great book, they call Bible is a phrase that says something along the line of “What you don’t want to happen to you, don’t do it to another person”.
According to the news and/or soap-series, you Americans are a God fearing nation…..
9-11 was a horrifying happening. But to put everybody that does not confirm to the American way of thinking in a dog-house with a very short leash, is not done.
torture is never repeat never (and I could repeat that until x-mas) a way to discover a persons guild or innocence.
I think that less than 1% of the afghans are pro terrorism. the rest is all very poor and struggling to survive the day.
Let’s send food, clean water, medicine instead of bullets and bombs. Maybe the 99.?% of afghans will turn towards the so-called civilized west.
BirishB said, about 1 month ago

CIA Agents are still American citizens.

And America has always been against torture.

A nation of principles that surrenders its principles will soon find itself to be the principal cause of trouble.

And history is replete with folks who were “just following orders.”
DavidDow said, about 1 month ago

What would you call holding & torturing someone for years without charging him with a crime or permitting the practice of the due process of justice? I call it kidnapping.

Poor Scott & poor 3hour, I feel sorry for you cowering at your laptops. If you feel this strongly, then why aren’t you with our military in Afghanistan?

Bruce, you mean the news on 9/12/2001. By the way, if these kidnapped & tortured men had any connection with the criminal acts of September 11th, then we would know it. Bush-Dick, however, never made much effort to catch those responsible for September 11th.

Thus, Moore’s cartoon demonstrates the weakness & depravity of the position of those who advocate torture.

On another subject, MyTinyTown’s baby should be nine days old. I hope that all is well with her & her mother. I look forward to hearing a report from TinyTown. I also look forward to little Gracie’s growing up in a world that never again practices torture.
Ian Valenzuela said, about 1 month ago

Do you really not understand how holding innocent men prisoner for years and torturing them into false confessions might create more terrorists? And creating more terrorists makes Americans less safe? Logically, then, ceasing these operations, making amends for the wrongs done, and going after people that committed crimes, would make Americans more safe. QED.

I am not saying that all, or even many, of the people held as enemy combatants were innocent. But some were, and were even acknowledged as such by Bush/Cheny, and holding them without trial and torturing them was a crime.
jack75287 said, about 1 month ago

I can’t believe all the self serving this little strip promotes, tell’s me Moore is right.

David & Toasteroven. It is a comic strip, when do comic strips give proof of anything; it is an opinion try to be respectful.

David your comment is in very bad taste today after 8 U.S. Service men were killed in a single firefight last Sunday. One of the biggest in the Afghan war. So there is your proof. You would know that if you read the papers.

Kees

If you don’t like American’s I don’t care and we are in a war and we do fight it cleaner then anyone else. If conducted the way an Arab or European country would we would not be having this conversation. It would be done quickly, brutally with out regard for any civil liberties and the press would be suppressed.
JanCinVV said, about 1 month ago

Torture is in the eye of the beholder. To the liberal left, torture is denying a copy of the Koran to a prisoner of war. Waterboarding is NOT torture. Just ask the WWII veterans who were prisoners in Japan and Germany. They would have been happy to have a little water poured over their heads. And, in case you didn’t know, waterboarding was done to exactly THREE people. It is neither widespread nor a standing policy of this country.
Contrarian said, about 1 month ago

BirishB

Welcome back. You last posted here in July. How have you been?
DavidDow said, about 1 month ago

Jan, the world agrees that attempted drowning, which is what waterboarding is, is torture.
Herbabee said, about 1 month ago

To paraphrase the long departed Marky-Mark TrailerTrash:

Thank you, President Obama, for keeping America safe another day.

(dontcha jus’ luv kitschy patriotism?)
Contrarian said, about 1 month ago

marktrail said: “Funny how President Obama just won a Nobel Prize for the way he’s handling things.”

Although, I question whether the award was given for any tangible results especially since the nomination deadline was Feb. 1–two weeks after he was inaugurated.
butch1942 said, about 1 month ago

David and Mark if anyone qualifies as anti- American I have to give you that title. As for the Nobel Peace Prize, it has become a joke. The extreme European Liberals give it to anyone who thinks like them.They gave it to Gore for Christ sake.
kjetski said, about 1 month ago

APPARENTLY!!! This is how you win a Nobel Peace Prize,, How sad that this event in itself will finally deal the final death blow to the prestige and honor of winning this award. You’d of thought that after Gore, this “prize” would be the kiss of death or at least a standing joke to ever receive one. Maybe, hmmm, that’s what this really is.
DavidDow said, about 1 month ago

You consider it a joke, Butch, because you don’t like the people who get the prize.

The Peace Prize Committee has recently awarded the prize to Muhammad Yunus, the I.A.E.A., Mohammed El-Baradei, Wangari Maathai, & Shirin Ebadi. What is your beef with them?

Ten years ago, the committee awarded the prize to Doctors Without Borders. What is your beef with them?

Twelve years ago, the committee awarded the prize to Jody Williams & the Campaign to Ban Landmines. What is your beef with them?

Contrarian, the nomination deadline is February 1st. The committee may not have decided until yesterday.

As for hating America, Butch, you are free to leave. Stop dragging this great nation down.
mroberts88 said, about 1 month ago

Torture only creates more terrorists, and it needs to end. That being said, I think our soldiers, sailors, airmen, and last but certainly not least, Marines, in Iraq and Afghanistan are doing a good job, and should be thanked.
Contrarian said, about 1 month ago

Re: The Nobel Peace Prize

Research the 1973 award for a controversial perspective.

Edit:

Ghandi was nominated 5 times, but didn’t win.

I was hoping that one of several Chinese dissidents would have won this year, but Beijing reportedly exerted pressure to stall those nominations.
DavidDow said, about 1 month ago

Yep, Contrarian, 36 years ago, the Peace Prize committee blew it. You’re not going to equate the choice of President Obama with the choice of Secretary of State Kissinger, the war criminal, are you? That would be risible.
BirishB said, about 1 month ago

Contrarian said:

BirishB

Welcome back. You last posted here in July. How have you been?

Been well. Needed to take a little break. Get perspective. I’m still optimistic about the {ahem} ‘State of the Union’ …

… but I am ever convinced we are continuing an ideological battle started by our Founders, pitting the idealists vs. the pragmatists. We do that in our political realm, and we all do it here on this string.

All this anger in our country is not a good thing. Less would be Moore, you know …
BirishB said, about 1 month ago

Some interesting points to ponder about Obama and the Nobel …

He was recognized for his efforts in building international consensus, and not for one particular action or actions that he took.

He was not awarded the prize for economics.

And Hamas also thinks that Obama should not have received the prize.

Draw your own conclusions …
Magnaut said, about 1 month ago

DavidDow..park your camel in the camelot beside O’bambi’s
toasteroven said, about 1 month ago

jack75287: “it is an opinion try to be respectful.”

I will not! And frankly, I’m offended that you asked. Try to be a bit more respectful.
jack75287 said, about 1 month ago

Toasteroven said
“I will not! And frankly, I’m offended that you asked. Try to be a bit more respectful”.

Toast you are offended by some one asking you to be something you refused be and you ask that person to be just that. Ok. I will be respectful, I was and you proved my point in a very odd way.
jack75287 said, about 1 month ago

Nobel has nominated Jimmy Carter, Al Gore and Yasser Arafat. Yes I know it was jointly with two of Israel’s leaders. They also briefly nominated Adolf Hitler in 1939. To their credit they removed the nomination in February of that year. I guess they woke or invading France must have removed everyone’s rose colored glasses. Past twenty years they have shown they are for any American that is a Democrat against any American who isn’t. I sorry but it is hard to respect them.
grim509 said, about 1 month ago

DavidDow said, about 6 hours ago

What would you call holding & torturing someone for years without charging him with a crime or permitting the practice of the due process of justice? I call it kidnapping.

Poor Scott & poor 3hour, I feel sorry for you cowering at your laptops. If you feel this strongly, then why aren’t you with our military in Afghanistan?

First, i am military… I’ve been deployed for OEF/OIF…
Your first comment… it’s not kidnapping.. the problem is, no one ever called these men what they are.. prisoners of war. Even according to the Geneva Convention we can hold them until the conflict is over. The problem with your “justice system” mentallity is, let’s say they’re sentanced to 50yrs. Let’s say we call hostilities over in 10 years. According to Geneva Convention, we would have to let them go, but if we use the justice system, we wouldn’t have to let them go.

Also, most Americans are against torture. The problem is the debate as to what constitutes torture. But you folks on the left seem to like to be the ones to define it, and if our opinions differ we’re wrong and apparently should all be tried and hung.

For your info, Geneva Convention defines torture as an act that would result in permanent scarring, disfigurement, or mental state. Waterboarding does none of those, so according to Geneva Convention, it’s not torture.

Grow up and move on. Nothing states we have to give those people a due process. They’re enemy combatants. We can hold them until the conflict is over. Even longer if we decide to charge them with war crimes (they all are war criminals as they do not wear a uniform but still participate in combatant situations)

BTW waterboarding is not attempted drowning. This proves that your comments are pointless and irresponsible. Waterboarding is running water over the head of the individual in such a manner the person thinks they may drown, but are actually very safe from drowning.
BirishB said, about 1 month ago

grim509 …

Is waterboarding torture?

Kind of depends on what the definition of “IS” is … right?

Waterboarding, by the way, has been described as torture by ex-members of the CIA and JAG, John McCain, the US Supreme Court (in 1947, in reference to water torture), the United Nations, Lt. Gen. Michael D. Maples (ex-director of the Defense Intelligence Agency), several US generals during the Vietnam conflict, and several international human rights groups … amongst countless others.

Seems pretty clear what the definition of “IS” is … doesn’t it?

If you are still not convinced, here is an account by Chase J. Nielsen, a U.S. airmen in WWII, describing his experiences with waterboarding. Does this sound like torture to you … perhaps capable of leaving permanent mental anguish:

“I was put on my back on the floor with my arms and legs stretched out, one guard holding each limb. The towel was wrapped around my face and put across my face and water poured on. They poured water on this towel until I was almost unconscious from strangulation, then they would let up until I’d get my breath, then they’d start over again… I felt more or less like I was drowning, just gasping between life and death”
grim509 said, about 1 month ago

No I still do not believe it is torture.

Especially if it saves the lives of Coalition forces or innocent civilians

But it’s all good, because the folks on the left end of the spectrum will investigate those nasty, evil CIA people and the military people who helped them “torture.” All the while drawing resources away from finding the true bad guys.

Hey, it’s your ball…
jack75287 said, about 1 month ago

Just found something out. The Nobel nominations end on Feb 1st of any given year. So Obama’s nomination is based on 12 days as President. From Jan 20 the day he took office till Feb 1st. I wonder what Alfred Nobel would say.
Kees said, about 1 month ago

Oké, I’ll pick up the ball.

Jack:
First of all, who said I dislike america? I didn’t.
Secondly I worked in the Us till the end of last century.
In one of the twins. I lost 12 former colleagues on 9-11. they are as yet still not found. most likely they evaporated.
third: violence created violence. everybody knows that.

As to Brig: this is no war, it is revenge.
War against terrorism. Only the war industry profits. The native afghan suffers, the soldiers suffer:
People die in vain.
I totally disagree with the views of the afghan taliban. their perspective of the world is completely screwed, but I do not think that guns are the answer. Ever thought that it might be envy that causes these terroristic actions? We, the west, are wealthy, we throw away more food every day, than is needed to feed the poorest on this planet.
we should really reconsider the way we are dealing with this major problem.
Politically, I am neither left or right, so that counter argument is already dealt with.
I simply repeat myself: Food and water will bring more peace than guns.
Dypak said, about 1 month ago

scottfreitas said,
Moore’s cartoon makes perfect sense. Kidnapped men? Whoever the hell DavidDow is, he deserves to have a US marine punch his lights out. Preferably one of countless US marines who barely survived being blown up by a roadside bomb, killed by a nearby bullet that just missed taking the back of his head off, etc
—————————————-
Hey Scott, how about you let the US Marines speak for themselves? Any true Marine, worthy of the name, knows that even those they disagree with have the right to speak their opinion, no matter how stupid it is. That’s probably a good thing in your case. Instead of using the Marines to threaten someone why don’t you do it yourself? If you think Dow needs an arse whoopin why don’t you cowboy up and do it yourself? Instead of having the Marines do it. They got better things to do than fight the fights you can’t manage on your own.
DavidDow said, about 1 month ago

Thanks, Birish. Your reply to Grim is much better than mine would be. Grim, by stating a faith claim, tacitly acquiesces in your points.

One point about Grim’s original statement that you did not address: He refers to these held men firstly as “prisoners of war”, then as “enemy combatants”. The two categories are not the same. The latter group is a Bush-Dick fiction, but the U.S. has no right to torture either group.

Thanks, Dypak, for your points about the fundamental nobility of the U.S. military. Bush-Dick exploited them for his bloody purposes. Our military should protect & defend, should keep the peace & defend freedom—NOT invade sovereign lands simply to line the pockets of the president’s friends. No one hates war more than a military man or woman and no one slavers more to go to war than a chickenhawk like Bush-Dick.
sablebrush5 said, about 1 month ago

These threads about torture require the “ticking time bomb scenario.”

If you were the President and were faced with the possibility that a detainee has knowledge of a dirty bomb about to detonate in Manhattan, would you give the order to torture him? Your principles say “no.” But what if torturing him held out the possibility of saving the lives of 10,000 innocent Americans? Would you hold to your principles and sacrifice those lives just so you can say to yourself, “I didn’t sell out my values”? Any President who did that would surely be impeached, and rightly so. We all believe torture - real, physically maiming torture, not simply waterboarding which “grim509” pointed out does not leave one physically harmed - is always wrong. But is it? Under the right circumstances, is physically maiming torture ever justified? Almost all the time it is not, but under the above circumstances - as improbable as they are - would you say “no”?
Ronshua said, about 1 month ago

The 1969 Chappaquiddick incident resulted in the death of automobile passenger Mary Jo Kopechne; Kennedy pleaded guilty to leaving the scene of an accident, and the incident significantly damaged his chances of ever becoming President of the United States. His one attempt, in the 1980 U.S. presidential election, resulted in a primary campaign loss to incumbent Democrat Jimmy Carter.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ron said, about 1 month ago

Where the !@$$#@ is farleftside?

And wonderwarthog? wonderwarthog’s opinions were balanced, reasoned and presented decently and politely.

I really miss him.
Ronshua said, about 1 month ago

According to his own testimony at the inquest into Kopechne’s death, Kennedy left the party at “approximately 11:15 p.m.” He said that when he announced that he was about to leave, Kopechne told him “that she was desirous of leaving, if I would be kind enough to drop her back at her hotel.” Kennedy then requested the keys to his car from his chauffeur, Crimmins. Asked why he did not have his chauffeur drive them both, Kennedy explained that Crimmins along with some other guests “were concluding their meal, enjoying the fellowship and it didn’t appear to me necessary to require him to bring me back to Edgartown”.[3] Kopechne told no one that she was leaving with Kennedy, and left her purse and hotel key at the party.[4]
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ronshua said, about 1 month ago

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/tedkennedychappaquiddick.htm
mroberts88 said, about 1 month ago

Dee, they were deleted. Dypak, I couldnt agree more. Any true American respect anothers opinion. Dypak, the reason he won’t do it, is because why? Instead, he’ll use the big, bad Marines, instead of getting his hands dirty.
Dypak said, about 1 month ago

sablebrush5 - Sorry, I’d let them die before I’d authorize torture. And then do everything legally and morally in my power to bring them to justice. This is one of those trick questions. There is an old joke.

A guy asks a woman, “Will you sleep with me for a million dollars?” She says yes.

Next he asks her, “Will you do it for ten?” She gets insulted and asks, “What kind of woman do you think I am?”

He answers, “We already know, we’re just working on the price.”

In your example the guy has already sold his principles. This time he sold them for something worthwhile, granted. But what will he sell them for next time? Do we want a leader who will sell his principles? Or do we want one who will stand true and can be counted on to punish the doers of evil in our society?
sablebrush5 said, about 1 month ago

Dypak,

I’d want - and I suspect 999 out of a thousand people would want - the President to do everything he could to save innocent Americans’ lives even if that meant authorizing torture.

9/11 has in a very real sense shown that this is not about trick questions or ethereal hypotheticals disconnected from reality. There really are guys out there who want to kill thousands of Americans if they can just find a way to do it.

So you would actually allow 10,000 Americans to die in order to keep intact your anti-torture principles?… If so, let me suggest that you check your moral compass - it’s pointing in the wrong direction.
Ron said, about 1 month ago

Thanks mrroberts88.

State of the Union by Carl Moore

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