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I dont care I’ve got mine, and grandma died a long time ago.
It’s really all about waterloo, and we hope America fails !
Only 3 years and 5 months more of listening to this, to go !
Let’s give the South back, The Louisiana purchase to the French, Texas to the Mexicans, and Alaska to the Russians, and who’s ever left over that’s not happy, send them back to England
That reminds me of a discussion I had with a former mayor of my town about 10 years ago. He, like most other townsfolk retired or nearly so, opposed any plans for the town to pay for a teen center. His argument was that he shouldn’t have to for teens to have a safe place to go and hang out on the weekends rather than cruising the downtown strip and seriously clogging up traffic for miles. Our town already has a senior center, offers free yearly flu shots to seniors and has a subsidized senior mobility shuttle service. I asked him why he thought it was fair for the town to pay for so many senior services, but turn its back on the town’s youth. He had no answer and left in a huff.
My point is that we live in a civilized society. We sometimes have to pay for things that don’t benefit us, just as we sometimes benefit from things someone else paid for.
Jase99 – I think you’re on to something. My mom’s the same way. As long as she gets hers she’s not too concerned about future generations, and actually won’t talk about it or even give it a thought (I suspect that’s why he went off in a huff – his conscience was bothering him!). About the time I retire, there won’t be much and if things keep up it’s going to be hard for me to keep my own money for retirement. Ours, and the next generation are going to get the pinch.
Jase99: what you’re missing here is the fact that you ARE benefiting. Investing in a youth centre today means they stay out of trouble and you pay LESS on jails in the future. Helping each other out today is an investment, both financially and socially.
Doc,
That’s one of the biggest problems. People don’t realize that investing in youth is in your own interest. Even people who should know better do it. A long while back I remember running into a retired HS teacher who was arranging to bus in the seniors to polling stations to defeat a school levy. His reason was that he was retired and his kids were out of school. Why should he pay for someone else’s kids? It was a depressing incident.
Gladius, civic investment is always a headache. ie … ” why should I have a property tax to fund schools, them ain’t my kids” . Educators have often lamented “Think the price of education is high, try the price of ignorance”. The same could said about civic investment. “Think civic development is costly, try the cost of neglect.”
The problem is, for Democrats, it is never enough.
Create Fed Dept of Ed and raise Fed taxes. Not enough.
Raise property taxes. Not enough.
Create Lotteries. Not enough.
Raise property taxes again. Not enough.
Raise taxes on cigarettes. Not enough.
Allow horse racing and slot machines. Not enough.
Raise taxes on cigarettes again. Not enough.
Raise property taxes yet again. Not enough.
When people say, “whoa– test scores are still down and violence is still up” politicians say “what do you expect– we’re not properly funded.”
At some point people say “you’ve got to be kidding me!”
ANTHONY: I never argued that government run healthcare was NOT socialism. That was your conclusion of my argument.
Of course it’s socialism. Any time the govt takes over 1/6 of the economy its socialism. It is the means of distributing goods (yes, the healthcare industry can be considered a “good”.) If this makes you conclude that basic services like the fire department is socialism also, so be it. I can’t argue that point with you any further.
Your final ridiculous hypothetical of the govt taking over my (service) hair salon and your (goods) sporting goods store, and then our opening a restaurant (selling a service and goods) in an attempt to prove what is socialist and what isn’t just about made my head explode. I couldn’t take it anymore. It was either end the thread or hang myself.
Sorry it seemed like I ran away. It was for my “mental” health care.
(Oh, and I want to thank all my fellow libertarians, conservatives and Republicans out there for your help in explaining how the police and fire departments are not socialism. I really appreciated it. NOT!
You COULD call the police and fire socialized, but in the case of the police, its part of the rule of law, which is part of what government is supposed to do (constitutionally speaking). The fire department (mine is actually voluntary and very cost-effective) could be considered a safety thing – to prevent the Night Chicago died etc. You could also go out on a limb and call healthcare a safety issue, but that would be pretty extreme and we already have the CDC taking care of the big ones.
There is no doubt that the government taking over 1/6th of the economy is in any sense of the word socialization of a huge part of the economy. Thereafter you can argue about whether it’s ‘worth’ it, or is it moral to take that much of the economies resources, and redistribute them independent of whether everyone wants that (i.e. what protects the minority from the majority robbing them against their will), but it is clearly socialism.
Any time a group of people get together and decide on a government, you have socialism. It’s just a matter how you run it, but it’s socialism. We all agree or forced to live under a government system, and it’s rules.
You’re preaching to the choir here, Church…I agree that a government run health care service is socialism.
But your contention that a government-run service isn’t socialism was a new one for me, so I was just trying to pin you down on the specifics. Wasn’t trying to make you uncomfortable; just trying to learn.
DrCanuck, I was (and still do) arguing for the teen center, not against. My town seems to cater to senior citizens and children. Those in their teens through mid-twenties are expected to keep quiet and invisible. It’s the down side to living in a mid-sized Midwestern town.
I really hate to interject here but Senor that is the poorest definiton of Socialism I have ever gazed upon..
The precepts of Socialism are when
“administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and a society characterized by free and equal access to resources for all individuals with an egalitarian method of compensation. Socialism is not a political system; it is an economic system distinct from capitalism.
Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital through exploitation, creates an unequal society, does not provide equal opportunities for everyone to maximize their potentialities and does not utilize technology and resources to their maximum potential nor in the interests of the public.”
It is a wonderful hypothesis on paper but has never been solidified enough to function as a theory. that with stands the test of time and real life circumstances..
@ WestTex - most economic theories tend to be modified in practice. Even while most of the so-called “West” accepts the idea of a free market, every country has some limits on what is possible and what is not - laws, regulations, etc. Some of those may be extraneous, but some are imo indispensible to allow it to function in practice. It is a theoretical ideal that has never existed in practice, and probably never will.
The same can be said of socialism. There was no successful country which adhered 100% to Marx’ views of how socialism should work. Even the countries that tried it - the USSR, China and others - all made their “modifications” to make it work in practice and on the international scale. Yet like capitalism, socialism is an ideology that has influenced many political systems, even when it has not dominated them.
Interestingly, I remember an interview with a communist dictator, Todor Zhivkov, who in the 90’s was under house arrest. He noted with some irony that while he and his party was trying to create a socialist state for 45 years, it didn’t get nearly close enough as the Swedes did.
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Comments (18) Jump to Comments Form
senorbullwinkle
said,
3 months ago
I dont care I’ve got mine, and grandma died a long time ago.
It’s really all about waterloo, and we hope America fails !
Only 3 years and 5 months more of listening to this, to go !
Let’s give the South back, The Louisiana purchase to the French, Texas to the Mexicans, and Alaska to the Russians, and who’s ever left over that’s not happy, send them back to England
Jase99 said, 3 months ago
That reminds me of a discussion I had with a former mayor of my town about 10 years ago. He, like most other townsfolk retired or nearly so, opposed any plans for the town to pay for a teen center. His argument was that he shouldn’t have to for teens to have a safe place to go and hang out on the weekends rather than cruising the downtown strip and seriously clogging up traffic for miles. Our town already has a senior center, offers free yearly flu shots to seniors and has a subsidized senior mobility shuttle service. I asked him why he thought it was fair for the town to pay for so many senior services, but turn its back on the town’s youth. He had no answer and left in a huff.
My point is that we live in a civilized society. We sometimes have to pay for things that don’t benefit us, just as we sometimes benefit from things someone else paid for.
Bill Ewing
said,
3 months ago
Good ideas “senior.”
You forgot to take Shakespeare’s advice into account, though: (I paraphrase) “Shoot the Lawyers!” (with the gun.)
ynnek58 said, 3 months ago
Jase99 – I think you’re on to something. My mom’s the same way. As long as she gets hers she’s not too concerned about future generations, and actually won’t talk about it or even give it a thought (I suspect that’s why he went off in a huff – his conscience was bothering him!). About the time I retire, there won’t be much and if things keep up it’s going to be hard for me to keep my own money for retirement. Ours, and the next generation are going to get the pinch.
wittyvegan said, 3 months ago
I didn’t hear the “racist”-comment yet. But the rest is really accurate.
DrCanuck said, 3 months ago
Jase99: what you’re missing here is the fact that you ARE benefiting. Investing in a youth centre today means they stay out of trouble and you pay LESS on jails in the future. Helping each other out today is an investment, both financially and socially.
This is what civilization is built on.
Gladius said, 3 months ago
Doc,
That’s one of the biggest problems. People don’t realize that investing in youth is in your own interest. Even people who should know better do it. A long while back I remember running into a retired HS teacher who was arranging to bus in the seniors to polling stations to defeat a school levy. His reason was that he was retired and his kids were out of school. Why should he pay for someone else’s kids? It was a depressing incident.
HUMPHRIES
said,
3 months ago
Gladius, civic investment is always a headache. ie … ” why should I have a property tax to fund schools, them ain’t my kids” . Educators have often lamented “Think the price of education is high, try the price of ignorance”. The same could said about civic investment. “Think civic development is costly, try the cost of neglect.”
churchillwasright said, 3 months ago
The problem is, for Democrats, it is never enough.
Create Fed Dept of Ed and raise Fed taxes. Not enough.
Raise property taxes. Not enough.
Create Lotteries. Not enough.
Raise property taxes again. Not enough.
Raise taxes on cigarettes. Not enough.
Allow horse racing and slot machines. Not enough.
Raise taxes on cigarettes again. Not enough.
Raise property taxes yet again. Not enough.
When people say, “whoa– test scores are still down and violence is still up” politicians say “what do you expect– we’re not properly funded.”
At some point people say “you’ve got to be kidding me!”
Anthony 2816
said,
3 months ago
Hey, Churchill, you ran away from our “socialism” debate.
Is government-run healthcare service socialism?
You argued that it isn’t.
The Republicans argue that it is.
Who’s correct?
churchillwasright said, 3 months ago
ANTHONY: I never argued that government run healthcare was NOT socialism. That was your conclusion of my argument.
Of course it’s socialism. Any time the govt takes over 1/6 of the economy its socialism. It is the means of distributing goods (yes, the healthcare industry can be considered a “good”.) If this makes you conclude that basic services like the fire department is socialism also, so be it. I can’t argue that point with you any further.
Your final ridiculous hypothetical of the govt taking over my (service) hair salon and your (goods) sporting goods store, and then our opening a restaurant (selling a service and goods) in an attempt to prove what is socialist and what isn’t just about made my head explode. I couldn’t take it anymore. It was either end the thread or hang myself.
Sorry it seemed like I ran away. It was for my “mental” health care.
(Oh, and I want to thank all my fellow libertarians, conservatives and Republicans out there for your help in explaining how the police and fire departments are not socialism. I really appreciated it. NOT!
ynnek58 said, 3 months ago
You COULD call the police and fire socialized, but in the case of the police, its part of the rule of law, which is part of what government is supposed to do (constitutionally speaking). The fire department (mine is actually voluntary and very cost-effective) could be considered a safety thing – to prevent the Night Chicago died etc. You could also go out on a limb and call healthcare a safety issue, but that would be pretty extreme and we already have the CDC taking care of the big ones.
There is no doubt that the government taking over 1/6th of the economy is in any sense of the word socialization of a huge part of the economy. Thereafter you can argue about whether it’s ‘worth’ it, or is it moral to take that much of the economies resources, and redistribute them independent of whether everyone wants that (i.e. what protects the minority from the majority robbing them against their will), but it is clearly socialism.
nerual53
said,
3 months ago
Hey Church… you are one sick dude! Grow up!
senorbullwinkle
said,
3 months ago
Any time a group of people get together and decide on a government, you have socialism. It’s just a matter how you run it, but it’s socialism. We all agree or forced to live under a government system, and it’s rules.
Anthony 2816
said,
3 months ago
You’re preaching to the choir here, Church…I agree that a government run health care service is socialism.
But your contention that a government-run service isn’t socialism was a new one for me, so I was just trying to pin you down on the specifics. Wasn’t trying to make you uncomfortable; just trying to learn.
Jase99 said, 3 months ago
DrCanuck, I was (and still do) arguing for the teen center, not against. My town seems to cater to senior citizens and children. Those in their teens through mid-twenties are expected to keep quiet and invisible. It’s the down side to living in a mid-sized Midwestern town.
WestTex13 said, 3 months ago
I really hate to interject here but Senor that is the poorest definiton of Socialism I have ever gazed upon..
The precepts of Socialism are when
“administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and a society characterized by free and equal access to resources for all individuals with an egalitarian method of compensation. Socialism is not a political system; it is an economic system distinct from capitalism.
Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital through exploitation, creates an unequal society, does not provide equal opportunities for everyone to maximize their potentialities and does not utilize technology and resources to their maximum potential nor in the interests of the public.”
It is a wonderful hypothesis on paper but has never been solidified enough to function as a theory. that with stands the test of time and real life circumstances..
4uk4ata said, 3 months ago
@ WestTex - most economic theories tend to be modified in practice. Even while most of the so-called “West” accepts the idea of a free market, every country has some limits on what is possible and what is not - laws, regulations, etc. Some of those may be extraneous, but some are imo indispensible to allow it to function in practice. It is a theoretical ideal that has never existed in practice, and probably never will.
The same can be said of socialism. There was no successful country which adhered 100% to Marx’ views of how socialism should work. Even the countries that tried it - the USSR, China and others - all made their “modifications” to make it work in practice and on the international scale. Yet like capitalism, socialism is an ideology that has influenced many political systems, even when it has not dominated them.
Interestingly, I remember an interview with a communist dictator, Todor Zhivkov, who in the 90’s was under house arrest. He noted with some irony that while he and his party was trying to create a socialist state for 45 years, it didn’t get nearly close enough as the Swedes did.