Small World by Tom Briscoe

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ynnek58 said, 3 months ago

fact is everybody wants everything and they want it for free. 50% of people interviewed in this one study I read didn’t even know where the government got it’s money… We ARE in trouble.

Here is the deal – you socialists are welcome to give every last cent you have and will ever have to whatever cause you believe in – just leave me out of you pipe dreams!
meowdam said, 3 months ago

NATIONALIZED HEALTH CARE is not socialized medicine
A healthier population is less expensive to take care of preventative medicine is both effective medically and financially.
Don’t believe that because you are snug in your capitalist cocoon that you are safe from outside influences. The more people who are ill the lower your lifestyle standard whether you recognize it or not . HEALTH CARE is a rental situation , someone was in that bed before you and some one will be after you ,the more patients the cheaper it is for everyone. The single payer system would in fact expand and improve NATIONAL HEALTH CARE and lower a per person cost , The hoodoo is all from those who stand to lose profit and actually never need HEALTH CARE , the corporate entities. big Pharma and their cronies
On a personal note during my life I have been acquaintances with a Big Pharma family , the most ostentatious and snobby clan I’ve ever been privy too . It used to turn my stomach to watch some of them knowing the chicanery they were up to and it reached every corner of the globe. Absolutely the greediest and richest people I’ve ever met.
Gary Kleppe said, 3 months ago

Government funding doesn’t mean government control. The government funds firefighters, but I don’t need government permission for them to come to my house.

As for debt, the current system is causing bankruptcies on a massive scale. if we went to enhanced Medicare for all we could cover everybody for no more than we’re spending now.
ynnek58 said, 3 months ago

your dream – you give the money. Also, you can choose to take the drugs or not. Somebody gets aids or some other incurable disease and then expects the rest of us to shell out a couple hundred grand a year to merely delay their death. Frankly, adios, and let their life serve as a warning to others on what not to do. Same goes for druggin, drinking too much, promiscuous sex and every other idiotic bone-headed behavior these morons engage in. Reportedly 90% of what ails us is preventable. If I have to pay do I then get control? How about outlawing tobacco, McDonald’s, and making exercising mandatory. What we do greatly effects our health. I bike 100 miles a week, swim 3-4 miles and also do some light weight-training and cardio – if everybody was working at their health like that I wouldn’t mind so much; however, the average American is a complete lardass and why should I pay for that!
fennec said, 3 months ago

The milk of human kindness just runs throughout your soul, doesn’t it, ynnek? You probably really believe that whoever dies with the most toys, wins. Or maybe you still haven’t gotten to the point of seeing your own mortality. Whatever. As I have said before, I think the success of our species rests on our ability to form cohesive social units. The myth of the independent human is just that, a myth, but one that seems very attractive to the right wingers.
Corosive Frog said, 3 months ago

I read an article in french about the measures you propose, ynnek. They call it sanitary faschism.

Sure, we should exercise, not eat at McDonalds (whose ads shouldn’t be directed towards kids, if you ask me) making that mandatory is like prohibition, taking a biug chunk of people’s freedom away, much more than most wingnuts pretends Obama is doing.
HUMPHRIES said, 3 months ago

Oh Boy, another 50% fact. PS - fennec, please take it easy, a voice of sanity like your’s is greatly appreciated here. ynnek’s kind are found under rocks the world over, they’ll twist anything to their adantage.
ynnek58 said, 3 months ago

here is the twist – I am in fact very philanthropic and many fiscal conservatives are. I’ve posted this before, but a couple of years ago Al ‘my heart bleeds for you’ Gore published how much money he gave away that year. Though Mr. Global Warming makes more than 10 times what I do a year, I gave away more than 10 times what he did. What’s the point? The government is a pisspoor excuse of a charity and most of these people who talk all caring are in fact huge blowhards (Uncle Al included).

The government siphons off something like 70% of what they take in for the poor in overhead. Now let me ask you this: would you give to a charity that had that kind of overhead? Not unless you are far stupider than you sound.

People NEED incentive to get off their lazy arses. Giving them everything – food , shelter, clothing, healthcare, condoms, cars (or cash for cars) just makes them lazy and worthless. This is human nature – they almost can’t help it. I say help them after all they can do, but they have to try. If they won’t even try, and that number would stun you, why should we reciprocate? Due to peoples laziness, healthcare in America throws away 90% of the cash. I bike 100 miles a week, swim 3-4 miles a week, do some light weight training and some cardio. I’m healthy because I make an effort to be so.

If I’m going to pay for a bunch of lazy bastardes to receive healthcare, then they better start towing the line. It would not be unreasonable to ban cigarettes IF you want to participate in the healthcare program. You see, with freedom comes with responsibility. If you want to be free to gorge yourself on Big Macs, smoke cigarettes and not wear a condom while having anal sex then knock yourself out. You should, however, be prepared to live with the consequences and not expect to have other more prudent folk bail your butt out.
pschearer said, 3 months ago

HOW did you people become so d**ned SOCIALIST?!

This country was founded on the profoundly individualist and uniquely American idea that the purpose of government is to defend your rights… your rights to YOUR life, YOUR liberty, and the pursuit of YOUR happiness. Each one of you, one at a time.

But we are being taken over by the profoundly collectivistic and mainly European concept that you are simply a cell in a social organism or a cog in an economic machine.

Under the American concept, a government limited to protecting rights must be strictly constrained in powers to prevent it becoming the worst violator of rights.

But when government is assigned any other function–whether managing the economy, solving social problems, educating children, building roads, healing the halt and lame, and on and on–then there is no limit to how large and powerful government can become. And a government that powerful will always end up violating rights.

I am horrified that so many people no longer understand these facts, but I can see a reason why. As much as I revere the Founding Fathers, they were sadly wrong on one key point: these truths are NOT self-evident. Otherwise we would have known them since Ancient Greece and we would never have forgotten them.

Come on, people, be AMERICANS!
DrCanuck said, 3 months ago

pschearer: A well-stated view. Question: What is the difference between a government taking care of the same human rights individually (each, one at a time) or collectively (as a society with a sense of community)?

“Your” rights verus “our” rights.

(And lose the “cog in the machine” thing; that is not necessary for a collective.)
Gary Kleppe said, 3 months ago

Funding health care *IS* protecting rights. In a civilized society, basic survival needs are human rights. If you don’t have them then none of your other rights mean anything.
dtroutma said, 3 months ago

When Yenney is out cycling, and gets run over like my son-in-law did, sure hope that private ambulance shows up, private cops get the lardhead that hit him, a private hospital will treat him-at cost, a private surgeon will work on him at cost, and his physical therapy will be cheap because it’s provided by for profit companies looking out for his best interests with no concern for their own profit. Oh yes, and his private insurance won’t cancel him because he’s two days too old to fit their profit model, and his bike riding was a “dangerous hobby” for which they exclude his “risk behavior”.
senorbullwinkle said, 3 months ago

LET’S JUST LEAVE IT THE WAY IT IS,
WHERE THE BILL JUST DISAPPEARS INTO THIN AIR,
AND NO ONES PAYS !

Who do you think is paying for it now ! Two ped* ! How’s that ? I hope that dont hurt your feelings.
I cant see where it’s going cost any more, I CAN see where it will cost less !

*corrected, from org. stupid
senorbullwinkle said, 3 months ago

YNNEK58, I’d like to know who you give your money to, John Birch Society, or the Klan, so I can really be impressed !
But I agree with some of what you say. Like if the poor were paid a LIVING WAGE, they could pay their own way, with out going to the Government. After all, we pay it in the end anyway. But if you do that, all those people who work for the government, (handing out welfare ) would be out of work, saving us that 70% but unemployed. Got any more plans ?
GNWachs said, 3 months ago

How will you handle the obvious consequence of your proposal? Pay the poor a living wage. Lets see I work and earn $1000 more than those who are paid not to work and are given a living wage. Why should I work, it is a lot more fun to stay home. That will continue in a fatal death spiral.
senorbullwinkle said, 3 months ago

IT AMAZES ME how the selfish have a living wage, but dont want the poor to have one. What I have for MYSELF, I dont want for others ! No one can live on $7.00 an hour, let alone a family. You dont like food stamps, welfare, and Medical care. Well if you paid them a wage to begin with, they wouldn’t need it ! WE PAY FOR IT ANYWAY , why not just pay it up front, and knock off all the games. What will YOU lose ? Your superiority and Righteous indignation ?
AND I dont know what the HELL you’re talking about, YOU HAVE TO WORK TO GET A WAGE !
ReasonsVentriloquist said, 3 months ago

OK, so is there a way for us to get that stuff WITHOUT it costing the government a lot of debt?

Yes, there is!

That Obama’s team (and those of you here who are on it) keep falling over this stupid strawman shows me that you are being out thought and out politicked by the right again.

You HAVE to control the debate! If you don’t control that you will never get to lead the discussion. Obama lack LEADERSHIP skills and we’re going to wind up paying for it (and I don’t mean taxes).

GNS above said: ” Why should I work, it is a lot more fun to stay home. ” No! It is not! Man is a hunter, woman is a gatherer. We don’t feel good about ourselves unless we feel that we are contributing.

Why do you think Russian men drink so much Vodka? Because they had no sense of self worth.
secondson said, 3 months ago

All this chatter equating firefighters, police and ambulance services with a government take over of health insurance is an obfuscation of the truth. This tactic is disingenuous to the point of an outright lie.Those telling this lie know they are lying. But of course we all know leftists don’t tell lies. Uh huh, yeah, ……right. Further more I find it very interesting and telling that leftists must continually use name calling and belittlement to combat opponents points. This shows a distinct lack of substance in the arguements they put forth. The patterns are so predictable, belittle, accuse, and belittle again.
ReasonsVentriloquist said, 3 months ago

“Further more I find it very interesting and telling that leftists must continually use name calling and belittlement to combat opponents points. This shows a distinct lack of substance in the arguements they put forth. The patterns are so predictable, belittle, accuse, and belittle again. ”

That seems like a pot calling a kettle black there to me.

As to the top of your post, please explain to me how it is different for the government to provide for one basic societal requirement say, fire prevention, which is what firemen do, prevent one fire from destroying the entire city as used to happen in Rome frequently, that’s how Crassus got so rich, which is only germaine considering the self wealth created by the “health care” industry. How is it different from the government providing another societal requirement?
secondson said, 3 months ago

Pot calling the kettle black you say. Exactly where do I belittle, then accuse, then belittle. It does not happen. To me getting into an arguement where all that is said is belittlement is kindergarten level, and when people resort to it it is pathetic behavior.

Having an emergency response force is not the same as having insurance to cover wellness. Besides we already have a guarantee of emergency medical coverage, just ask the illegals. Hospitals cannot turn anyone away in an emergency. If they do you have a case against them. Additionally, if someone is not able to pay there is a system already in place for being rated as to percentage of responsibilty according to ability to pay. Further more, the entire health insurance industry is not a for profit business. There are Nonprofit health insurers, and they usually do provide better health coverage.
ynnek58 said, 3 months ago

2ndson is right – no one is being denied healthcare now, it’s a matter of how it’s paid for. Finding a cheaper way not to let deadbeats die in the street is the goal.
meowdam said, 3 months ago

Ynnek58 is all over this thread and striper is mysteriously absent I smell a paid troll
nomad2112 said, 3 months ago

As usual it’s always sweeter when someone else is buying.
secondson said, 3 months ago

Just to be clear, the federal government has set the poverty line for 2009 for an individual at $10,830. If a person works a job for 40 hours a week for one year that is 2080 hours. If that person is earning the federal minimum wage, which is $7.25 as of July 24, 2009, they will earn $15,080.00. That is nearly 50% over the poverty line. Many benefits, including adjusted hospital bill payment, are available for people making as much as 200% of the federal poverty guideline.

http://www.coverageforall.org/pdf/FHCE_FedPovertyLevel.pdf

http://www.dol.gov/esa/whd/minimumwage.htm

I realize this may be an inconvenient truth for some.
omQ R said, 3 months ago

meowdam : No, I can actually read ynnekºs stuff. I mean, I can read it but cannot help rolling of the eyes. Striper just made me skip whole posts.
fennec said, 3 months ago

ReasonVen is right on about the pot and the kettle. I don’t claim that none on the left refrain from such antics, but to put it all on one side is disingenuous, to say the least. Particularly after ynnek’s performances!
secondson said, 3 months ago

fennec, one problem here with your theory. I do not purport myself as representative of the right.
dtroutma said, 3 months ago

CAPITALISM says, sell more of an item, the price comes DOWN. Bring more people into an insurance pool, price comes DOWN. Sell more of a drug, price comes DOWN. Centralize command and control for efficiency, cost comes DOWN. Now, just how is single payer not in conformance with CAPITALIST PRINCIPLES- oh, right, CEO bonuses and rip offs go down.
ynnek58 said, 3 months ago

Paid troll? – I’ve been promoted! I just think it’s silly when all you want is to have people work and earn the stuff they get and somehow this makes you the meanie. Socialists are always trying to twist your sense of morality against you. You don’t want babies to starve do you? Give us your money. Dang! Who wants starving babies? – I just want the folks that copulated and birthed them to take care of them. If they can’t support them what are they having them (or more of them) for?
Healthcare is no different eh? Many people will be having more children than they can support. If they didn’t have so many kids they’d have enough money to buy healthcare, no? Sure it seems a little harsh, but why should I be responsible for all of their shenanigans? If you can’t afford kids, wear a sheathe, if you can’t afford that, you can’t afford sex.
Yet realistically, stupid people will continue with this kind of behavior and we DON’T want babies to starve and whatnot; so, let’s do the cheapest thing possible – send all the poor people to Canada – oops that was too easy. The single payer system is probably the cheapest, but it would certainly be doomed. Subsidizing the poor (just another tax) will likely be the only thing that comes out of this (which amounts to funneling more money from taxpayers to insurance companies) – that and making insurance companies cover pre-existing conditions. In the end it will be a lot of brouhaha for nothing.
I will be bold and predict that after another 4 years of Obama, and people getting tired of STILL getting gouged by insurance companies that Obama will be reelected and a public option, if it doesn’t get passed now will then. Be patient my socialist friends – we are definitely heading in your direction.
senorbullwinkle said, 3 months ago

REASONSVENTRILOQUIST, or ( R V ) You sound like an old friend of mine.

I wonder ?
udonknowme said, 3 months ago

ynnek–Why don’t you consider the millions of people who were infected with aids through a blood transfusion?? I have a brother who through no BAD behavior was infected with HIV by a medical technician when he was in the military–DO YOU THINK HE WANTED IT ?? What about the children, nurses, etc. Be real–this is a cartoon about healthcare & if it happens–it happens–Just because youare a picture of health outside there is something you are lacking in your life otherwise you would’t spend so much time exercising. DON’T JUDGE WHAT YOU DON’T KNOW!!
ReasonsVentriloquist said, 3 months ago

Those wondering, the answer is yes.

Who was I talking to here again? Oh yes SecondSon…

First is that you can’t put the genii in the bottle when it is convenient for you to do so. Ronald Reagan made the word “Liberal” a pejorative term and the right has gladly continued that tradition straight on to today.

(Edited later: My bad, I thought Secondson said Liberal, but he said “Leftist.” I however, contend that the writer uses “leftist” as an epithet. I also still contend that Obama’s coalition was formed of “centrists” and to name-call “Centrists,” “Leftists” is to intend to belittle them, to accuse them of having no substance and the to belittle them again by calling “their patterns” “Predictable” is hypocrisy to the point of being the very definition.)

As a Liberal, I find Barack Obama to be way way way to the right of me, and I am much more likely to show up on a public opinion poll as a “Disapprove.”

Obama has crafted a coalition of “Progressives” that believe that there is a “Middle” of the bell curve that represents the majority of Americans. While this may be true; to a Liberal, the middle is a useless mishmash of undisciplined sophists with no central political philosophy.

SO when you use the word “Liberal” you are not referring to the adherents of the actual political philosophy but rather to the boogieman strawman set up by Reagan (whether you know it or not). As such, your rant was pure projection on your part.

Now, as to the “substance” of your “rebuttal” :

You said, “Having an emergency response force is not the same as having insurance to cover wellness.”

And that is wrong. Here’s why.

First of all, the fire department is not an “Emergency Response Force” from a societal perspective. Why? Because we pay to have them there, emergency or not. We don’t pay the fire department by the fire, we keep them on retainer such that they are constantly ready to do their job.

Secondly, we pay for them whether it is an “emergency” to me or not. I pay state taxes, some of my state taxes are given to city fire departments. They go out and put out fires that would have ZERO impact on me. That entire city could burn down and it would be no skin off my nose. And yet I pay.

Likewise, a hospital is there (partially) so that it can treat people on an emergency basis. Again, it’s not MY emergency, just like Katrina wasn’t MY emergency, but it’s somebody’s emergency. So why shouldn’t the government provide this service? And why shouldn’t they provide it to everyone? Does the fire department choose which fires to put out based on who lives there? (Volunteer FDs do, if they don’t like you or the amount you contributed during the last fund drive, that weighs on their commitment to your property. One reason that it is a good idea that there are professional fire departments.)

And then there is the concept of the greater good and protecting the health and safety of the populace. Without a national healthcare we have developed drug resistant strains of several diseases including Tuberculosis. Gee, why didn’t these diseases develop in the nations that have a national health care system?

I’m sorry Secondson but you’ll have to make a better case for the disingenuousness of the comparison which is the claim you made. The comparison might not be the most apt, but it is far from disingenuous.
ynnek58 said, 3 months ago

dtroutma - not to worry I have great insurance that I earned and paid for all by myself.

The fire and police are local entities and have very little (except for some carrot money) to do with the Feds.

And PLEASE MILLIONS infected with aids by blood transfusions!! try:
http://www.foreveryday.com/hlthrch/TOPICS/HIVI4614.htm
some very small chance since the blood supply has been screened since 1985 -0- that’s more than 20 years. we’re talking dozens, not millions – hmmm another ‘scare’ tactic?

Tuberculosis got into the country primarily by no screening the incoming in high-risk areas coupled with illegal immigration.

I worked around 3400 hours last year – even if someone was making minimum or a bit better than minimum (a lot of overtime there) they could live on that… assuming the weren’t breading like rabbits. Progressive is just another buzz word from the anointed that think they know what best for the rest and are more than willing to force their vision on you. It should be REGRESSIVE, since that what the taxes are that will be levied to make they dream come true.

The problem with the government providing all of the jobs is you then get a planned economy. Heck lets make our own 5 year plan, and when that sucks another , and another – The Soviets showed us how to do a great job of planning the economy.

If we are going to be forced into something a single care is probably the cheapest – SUPER basic care, with private insurers providing supplemental decent insurance on top of that. Make it portable with no pre-qualification and you could probably get the socialists on board with that. We are already paying now anyway – that’s the dirty little secret and the Obama administration should be using that as leverage. Maybe they are worried people would get bent about that too. I don’t think it’s ideal, but without the balls to let people that probably should die die, we could probably do something a little more efficient than what we have now, which is a kluge of special interest driven policies.
senorbullwinkle said, 3 months ago

YNNEK, It’s your money. And you seem to think so much of it. And no ones gonna stop You from throwing it away on highly over priced health insurance cause it makes you feel safe, although your as health as a horse. But please sit down, cause the rest of us would like to get this thing under control.
Why should you care if we pay less ? You can always find someone that you can pay more to.
ReasonsVentriloquist said, 3 months ago

Yoink,

Here’s from Wiki about the prevention of spreading XDR-TB, perhaps you would like to tell us how we’re going to put this fire out without a fire department?

“Countries can prevent XDR-TB by ensuring that the work of their national TB control programmes, and all practitioners working with people with TB, is carried out according to the International Standards for TB Care. These emphasize providing proper diagnosis and treatment to all TB patients, including those with drug-resistant TB; assuring regular, timely supplies of all anti-TB drugs; proper management of anti-TB drugs and providing support to patients to maximize adherence to prescribed regimens; caring for XDR-TB cases in a centre with proper ventilation, and minimizing contact with other patients, particularly those with HIV, especially in the early stages before treatment has had a chance to reduce the infectiousness. Also an effective disease control infrastructure is necessary for the prevention of XDR tuberculosis. Increased funding for research, and strengthened laboratory facilities are much required. Immediate detection through drug susceptibility testing’s are vital, when trying to stop the spread of XDR tuberculosis.”

While the US is not at all the only country with an XDR-TB history, most of the other cases come from countries without a national health care infrastructure (read 3rd World). As such, the fact that we are so succeptible to further infection is a global embarrassment (or it would be if Americans had a global perspective).

3,400 hours? 11 hours a day, 6 days a week? I know guys that collect cans for a living that would trade hours with you in a heartbeat.

Can we assume you are working at the same pace this year? Can we assume you wasted as much time on the internet arguing with strangers during the work day last year as this year? If you did and you are an hourly employee, you owe your employer money! How do you justify overtime when you spent “working” time doing this?

“…breading like rabbits.” I prefer my rabbit beer battered to breaded. Oh Breeding like rabbits! Oh that’s very different you classless classist.

3400 hours divided by 48 weeks (assume 2 weeks vaca and 2 weeks holidays) is close enough to call it 70 hours per week. That translates into 40 hours at regular (we’ll call it $10/hour) and 30 hours at time and a half ($15). That comes to about 40,800 gross. subtract 2800 for FICA and you’re at 38K. Figure 10% in income taxes after all is said and done and you’re at 34,200. Health insurance, $16,000/year if you can get it. Now you’re down to 18,200, which is $1,516/month for food and shelter. Forget a car, forget a phone, forget clothes, forget kids! You know what?

Forget YOU!

Learn something then come back!
senorbullwinkle said, 3 months ago

That aint working. 7 min.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qPJXFrpftM
car wash 4 min, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RER94lCnHYE&feature=related
take this job and….2 1/2 min
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS6FYPd-X5Q&feature=related
GNWachs said, 3 months ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2jijuj1ysw&feature=channel_page
senorbullwinkle said, 3 months ago

GNC, I didn’t watch most of your video, it was boring. but i did watch the beginning and the end. This guy is no dude off the street, he’s a pro paid by the health care companies. He should go back to selling used cars. I would have thrown him out.
WHAT I DID FIND interesting was the comment underneath, seems like 90% thought like i did. look at page 5 or 14, or just pick one, your video fails to convince anyone.
GNWachs said, 3 months ago

If you don’t think that is what we are going to have in this country you are very naive. You can’t throw him out. This is government medicine, they must take everyone. You just proved my point.
oldlegodad said, 3 months ago

My eyes hurt trying to read all this ©rap Every body log off and get laid or what ever will shut you up.
secondson said, 3 months ago

Far from disingenuous you say? Thanks to Webster online;

Disingenuous:

ADJECTIVE: 1. Not straightforward or candid; insincere or calculating.

The fact that there is more to the arguement does not mean the post is not disingenuous. The definition fits the post I applied it to. Saying it is far from disingenuous is obtuse and condescending.
ynnek58 said, 3 months ago

ReasonsVentriloquist
Should I call the whambulance for you? I only said someone else could get by, I never said they could maintain MY standard of living, and BTW – did you see me positing last year? – no – I didn’t have time. We are working quite a bit less this year – I have a little more time, but then you on the left, and might I add FAR left, always ASSume too much. Look life is hard – harder if you’re stupid. Why is it so hard to understand that people should pay for what they get and take responsibility for what they do? It was reported last week that it costs more than $200K to get a kid to adulthood. Plan a bit eh? If you can’t afford to have a kid, don’t have one. And if you are too stupid to know how to prevent it, then perhaps rather than a death panel we should be looking at neuter panels. Hey I got NO beef with you as long as you aren’t looking for my money. If you can support yourself, and the offspring that you sired – super.

AS far as the TB: http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs104/en/

See where the TB is and you’ll know where it coming from. But it’s not just TB
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/rxforsurvival/series/experts/vkatrinahedberg.html
talks about why we need to continue inoculating kids even for stuff that we don’t much have here – it get reintroduced from the outside (is there some mystery here?)

Blah blah blah whetever chilax – why you got to be a hater.

I don’t hate poor people or stupid people – I just don’t want to pay for stuff I have absolutely no control over. I can’t eat for them, exercise for them, make them wear a condom, or tuck them in at night. Therefore, since I have no control over them I cannot be responsible for all the idiotic stuff they do – feel free to give them all your money if it makes you feel better.

BTW, I didn’t get more than a couple of days off all of last year – yeah – it does get old and it DOES make you a little grumpy – sorry. It also make you extra testy when you are working that hard to get ahead and then once you start getting a little money, someone sees it and nabs it as though they had the right to the fruits of your labor…. it hurts me so.
ReasonsVentriloquist said, 3 months ago

“This tactic is disingenuous to the point of an outright lie.Those telling this lie know they are lying. ”

“The fact that there is more to the arguement does not mean the post is not disingenuous.”

“Saying it is far from disingenuous is obtuse and condescending.”

Third things first. Not that I agree with your premise but, if one expects the other to understand the nuance of an obtuse perspective, then one is being the opposite of condescending (proascending?). One is giving the other the the benefit of the intellectual doubt.

Of course now I see that you are a person who wants to be viewed as the martyr.

First things second: Semantics, how lovely for me that I’ve chosen to try to have a discussion with someone who falls back on semantics when he is confronted with a POV that refutes his rhetoric.

If you look at the history of the word Disingenuous you will come to see that the word has morphed to the point where it is, itself a disengenuousity.

However, comparing the fire department to a national health care “department” is not an “Obfuscation” as I showed you. Since that is true, then to call the “Tactic” of the comparing them “disingenuous to the point of telling a lie” is flawed.

Ironic here that what you are accusing those “others” of doing is again exactly what you yourself are doing in the very process of pointing your finger. Given that the argument is not an “obfuscation” your assertion that it is is tantamount to telling a lie.

Now, perhaps we can dispense with the “semantics” and try to discuss the issue itself (perhaps you’ll be aware of the difference between between rhetorical bluster and logical reasoning. Perhaps you’ll also note that it’s spelled “Argument” without the “e” after the “u”.)

And yes, that is condescention, you’ve dug yourself in to the hole and you deserve condescention, now do something that redeems your reputation.
ReasonsVentriloquist said, 3 months ago

Nek58,

I have no idea what your standard of living is. I only used the proper math to show you what a person working as hard as you did last year while being paid an above minimum wage would take home.

And let’s not forget that the standard Minimum Wage worker would not work 70hrs per week at one job, more likely he’d have two sub full time jobs, both paying him MW and no benefits.

What is important here is that you recognize how high the Insurance Tax is on people. 70 hours a week, at $10 regular and $15 time and a half and this worker has to work until about April 20th just to pay for his insurance.

Is this coming through? Do you get it? Health care costs TOO MUCH! People rail against taxes but fork over a ridiculously high percentage of their income to insurance and doctors and prescriptions!

I’m an independent Business person and I make what most people would say is a lot of money. Health care for my family costs over $25,000 per year. That is a drain on this economy that will bankrupt this nation faster than any other tax.

The fact that health care costs have risen so high translates into inflation of non descretionary expenditures. Your real estate taxes go up because the municipality has to pay higher premiums, as do your school taxes.

In the past it was said that labor represented 75% of inflation. Well we beat that by shipping the jobs to China. And yet, while incomes have dropped in real terms over the past 3 decades (but specific to this conversation we’ll focus on the last two) the cost of labor has gone up. Even with cost shifting (in other words, while it was common for an employer to pay 100% of HC in the old days, but now it is more common that the employee pays somewhere between 10 and 50% of the HC cost) the cost of labor has still climbed.

It’s at the point where a guy can bust his back working 70 hours per week and still can’t make it work.

The rule of mortgages was (and is again) that your Interest Principle, Taxes and Insurance should be no more than 28% of your pre tax income that would historically leave one with about 50% of their income for all other expenses (and HC was a relatively small percentage, if at all given the fact that it was usually covered by the employer). For our Mr.X that would mean that he should be able to afford a monthly payment of about $955. That formula doesn’t work anymore, because that would leave him with less than 18% of his income after health insurance. Not to mention that the rise in real estate taxes is outstripping his rise in income.

Can you see why this health care issue is actually an economic crisis?
ReasonsVentriloquist said, 3 months ago

Where would you keep it?

(Carlin ish)
oldlegodad said, 3 months ago

No body listened to me.

now read this to see how it can be done.
http://hamptonroads.com/2009/08/rep-nye-expresses-doubts-health-care-plans
senorbullwinkle said, 3 months ago

OLDGOAT, YOU’RE THE NEW LIBERAL ! > http://tinyurl.com/onxjc5
ReasonsVentriloquist said, 3 months ago

In reading Legodad’s link a thought crossed my mind.

It comes from this snippet: “Nye appeared solo in a later meeting with small-business owners. He reiterated his reservations about a government role, saying a public option should not “enjoy substantial benefits from the government that will crowd out private insurance.”

“So”, I ask myself, “the government plan is supposed to be sub standard and expensive so that it is comparable to the private insurers’ product?” I mean if the government plan is the same as the private insurers plan but through the economies of scale and the use of government drones as a work force the cost for coverage is substantially lower, what are they supposed to do with the excess premium? Given that Nye doesn’t want there to be a substantial benefit of lower prices.

Nye seems to be quite the non compis mentis from this perspective.

And then it hits me, “Wait a second! Isn’t this exactly the ‘Free Market’ at work? Isn’t this the perfect example in that the market participants, through collusion and overactive demand for profits, have priced themselves out of the market, and now the market has decided to ‘Self Insure?’ ” As a practical matter this is exactly what is happening (or would be if Obama had a clue) in that we are the Government and the government is we. We choose to self insure instead of buying the overpriced, under performing product of a bloated business model.

That is EXACTLY the way free markets are supposed to work.
senorbullwinkle said, 3 months ago

RV, EXACTLY what I was going to say ! (great mind’s you know). Can I hold your coat ? Or maybe you dont sweat the lite work.
GNWachs said, 3 months ago

RVQ: Let’s make a deal. If there is a public option you agree that it can in no way be subsidized. If they take in $1B in premiums the most they can pay out is $1B. If there are more bills than income than they must ration health care. That is your end.

For my part I agree if there is a profit then and only then can the government lower premiums.

Seems fair enough from both sides.

NYT today. Since the recession officially began the private sector has shed 6.9M jobs. During this exact same period the workforce at all levels of government has grown by 110,000. Powerful unions. This is why i am willing to strike the bargain.