Michael Ramirez by Michael Ramirez

Michael RamirezNo Zoom

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  1. danielsangeo

    danielsangeo said, over 5 years ago

    Well, I’d rather have them backing me up when going against the corporate goons whose arms are LARGER than both of those put together. At least they’re fighting FOR Joe, not against him.

  2. RogOregon

    RogOregon said, over 5 years ago

    Actually, my dad, who’ll have been working at the local paper mill 40 years in September and is a union representative for their mill, talks about how the people running the unions aren’t for the workers, but for themselves.

    The unions are like big business and those running them are like the corrupt corporate executives. The workers are now just an excuse for the powerful in the unions to be powerful, when the union is supposed to be about the workers.

    Basically it’s that “absolute power corrupts absolutely” as the unions grew and the people at the top got powerful.

  3. slavetofashion69

    slavetofashion69 said, over 5 years ago

    Fair enough, Rog. You make some good points that, even though I’m rabidly pro-union, I can’t argue with. But what’s the alternative? Do we just allow our employers to give us what they wish voluntarily, based on their good will? Hell will freeze over before workers gain anything that way. Workers need to -own- their companies, not just try to beg for what they can get through the intermediary of a union.

  4. danielsangeo

    danielsangeo said, over 5 years ago

    RogO: Well, that’s why more people need to be involved in their union; so that they can vote the corrupt individuals out.

    For some reason, I see the anti-union and anti-government people to be using the exact same argument; that corrupt people means the system is bad and, therefore, shouldn’t be used… which creates MORE corruption, not less.

  5. redheadsandrazorbacks

    redheadsandrazorbacks said, over 5 years ago

    ”Fair enough, Rog. You make some good points that, even though I’m rabidly pro-union, I can’t argue with. But what’s the alternative? Do we just allow our employers to give us what they wish voluntarily, based on their good will? Hell will freeze over before workers gain anything that way. Workers need to -own- their companies, not just try to beg for what they can get through the intermediary of a union.”

    Im an owner operator of a small machine shop. My employees “gain” what they want by:

    1.Showing up on time every day. 2.Learning all they can from folks who know more than them. 3.Working as hard as I do.

    Case in point: A young man applied for a job in my shop in 2002. He came from a plant operated by a major auto part after-market manufacturer. I started him out at $10 an hour. After 2 weeks, he and I both knew he was having a great deal of trouble “machining” as up till then he was an “operator”. Well, I’ve got guys that were producing far more than him and not making too much more money. So i pushed his hourly rate back to $9 an hour and told him to keep at it. Now, nearly 8 years later, that young man is one of my highest paid employees and I depend on him nearly every day and all he did is the 3 things i laid out above.

    NONE of this would have been possible had I been forced to deal with a union. I would not have been able to lower his pay and I sure would not have been able to raise it as fast as I did.

    So, to me, the “alternative” is to raise your self up individually and not rely on a collective bargaining agreement that keeps stars and slugs at the exact same level.

  6. claudermilk

    claudermilk said, over 5 years ago

    Some good examples of why I have no use for unions. They had a purpose at one point, but it seems to me that there are now federal laws serving most of those needs now.

    There seems to be intimidation tactics going both ways, and none of it belongs in the workplace.

  7. danielsangeo

    danielsangeo said, over 5 years ago

    redhead: The plural of anecdote is not data. Why, I could do the exact same thing as you and show why unions are good. In fact, I’ll do just that:

    My father worked for a company for 32 years. The management team at the company operated so that they would typically harass, intimidate, and threaten their employees (my dad even came up with a term; they’re called “HIT-men”).

    My father was the hardest worker there and, had it not been for the union, would not have the benefits and paygrade he had.

    You see, in the company he worked for (no, I won’t name them), he was in a department that many felt was unimportant; that the job he did, others could do. The problem is, even though it was true that it was a more unskilled department, it required massive amounts of manual labor to sort and move equipment around. Anyone could do the job, and they were always looking for ways to remove his department They made it WELL KNOWN that “his kind ain’t welcome here”, meaning a worker of that department because they felt that it took work away from the other departments.

    When the other departments got a raise, they looked the other way when it came to his department. Had it not been for the union, he would’ve been making about minimum wage, doing the work of 10 other people; and he was only making twice what others were doing, sitting on their tail, talking all day.

    So, yes, I’m for unions. No, not because of my anecdote (which I only shared because you did). There are corrupt unions, indeed. There are very good unions, as well.

    To lump them all together as being corrupt is to say that all X are bad because a member of X is bad.

  8. redheadsandrazorbacks

    redheadsandrazorbacks said, over 5 years ago

    __”redhead: The plural of anecdote is not data. Why, I could do the exact same thing as you and show why unions are good. In fact, I’ll do just that:

    My father worked for a company for 32 years. The management team at the company operated so that they would typically harass, intimidate, and threaten their employees (my dad even came up with a term; they’re called “HIT-men”).

    My father was the hardest worker there and, had it not been for the union, would not have the benefits and paygrade he had.

    You see, in the company he worked for (no, I won’t name them), he was in a department that many felt was unimportant; that the job he did, others could do. The problem is, even though it was true that it was a more unskilled department, it required massive amounts of manual labor to sort and move equipment around. Anyone could do the job, and they were always looking for ways to remove his department They made it WELL KNOWN that “his kind ain’t welcome here”, meaning a worker of that department because they felt that it took work away from the other departments.

    When the other departments got a raise, they looked the other way when it came to his department. Had it not been for the union, he would’ve been making about minimum wage, doing the work of 10 other people; and he was only making twice what others were doing, sitting on their tail, talking all day.

    So, yes, I’m for unions. No, not because of my anecdote (which I only shared because you did). There are corrupt unions, indeed. There are very good unions, as well.

    To lump them all together as being corrupt is to say that all X are bad because a member of X is bad.”__

    So you’re telling me that the union helped your pops. What I see is that your dad worked his tail off and still only got as good as some schmuck on an 8 hour coffee break.

    Fat lot of good that union did him.

    Like i said, I pay my guys what they are worth and if they feel they should be paid more, they are always welcome to come and try to convince me as well.

    I realize my little shop with 10 guys is a whole lot different than a giant megaconglomerate, but I do recall working in a plant where I had to be a member of The International steel workers union and it never failed to piss me off when they would take my money weekly to make sure that old Johnny Loafalot got paid more because he had been there longer and was good at never doing any more that was required…ever, and that i was unable to negotiate with management by myself based on my talents and contributions.

    It appears that no one here knows a really good answer but I am quite sure that “The Employee Free Choice Act” aint it.

  9. danielsangeo

    danielsangeo said, over 5 years ago

    “Fat lot of good that union did him.”

    Actually, no. You don’t know what you’re talking about. The union that he was in was ONLY for the department he was in. They had no say in the other departments.

    “I do recall working in a plant where I had to be a member of The International steel workers union and it never failed to piss me off when they would take my money weekly to make sure that old Johnny Loafalot got paid more because he had been there longer and was good at never doing any more that was required…ever, and that i was unable to negotiate with management by myself based on my talents and contributions.”

    Did you ever go to the union meetings? Did you fight for your rights? Or did you just get “pissed off” and do nothing?

  10. redheadsandrazorbacks

    redheadsandrazorbacks said, over 5 years ago

    ”Did you ever go to the union meetings? Did you fight for your rights? Or did you just get “pissed off” and do nothing?”

    i learned what i needed to and got out. i worked hard every day i was there and still feel like the union worked harder for guys that wouldn’t work.

  11. danielsangeo

    danielsangeo said, over 5 years ago

    “i learned what i needed to and got out. i worked hard every day i was there and still feel like the union worked harder for guys that wouldn’t work.”

    Thank you for your candor. However, you did just what I thought (just got pissed off) and you wonder why the union didn’t work for you?

  12. dtroutma

    dtroutma GoComics PRO Member said, over 5 years ago

    Henry Ford said he paid his employees well so they could buy his cars. Industry rarely followed his example. While any large “entity” be it corporation or union creates problems with critical mass. The miniscule percentage of unionized labor in he U.S. hardly befits this image. The “safety” of our food and mines under Bush deregulation, and elimination of inspectors, has shown the other side of what unions accomplished besides salaries and benefits, that have been reversed. The secret is no bad management in Corporations, Unions, or Government.

  13. Harleyquinn

    Harleyquinn GoComics PRO Member said, over 5 years ago

    yeb this is just what we need.. just look what the unions did for GM. I mean where else can you get a job to sit around n a “job bank” and get paid. I am sure they had nothing to do as to why gm went under…right..

  14. believecommonsense

    believecommonsense said, over 5 years ago

    actually, from what I read one of GM’s biggest problems is healthcare costs for retirees, though I agree that the agreement to pay laid-off workers for four years (I think it’s four years) is mind-boggling. Union, like most things in life, are a mixed bag. Some have too much power and the power corrupted their purpose. But I hope we remember why unions got started in the first place: to protect the health, safety and human rights of workers from criminal behavior on part of employers. Two examples of the exact same criminal behavior 90 years apart: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TriangleShirtwaistFire (single underscore between e and S in shirtwaist; single underscore between t and F in fire) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamletchickenprocessingplantfire (single underscore between t and c in chicken; between n and p in processing; between g and p in plant; and between t and f in fire)

  15. Ransom D Stone

    Ransom D Stone said, over 5 years ago

    This idiot is not left and likely not human.

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