I was busy yesterday and did not get to C&H until after there were 100+ posts, mostly about religion. I read all of them and was both amused and appalled. Although I am not sure if this is the appropriate forum for a religious debate, I have no real problem with people expressing their point of view and was impressed with some of the views proffered although I realize that those on either side will never convince those on the other to accept their views, at least not in this forum. However, what I found unacceptable was the significant number of posts on both sides of the issue that gave way to name calling and personal attack. These have clearly no place in this forum. I am therefore suggesting that all of us flag any post that makes a personal attack on another member. That is not to say that we should not be allowed to disagree. Indeed, honest discussion and debate is appropriate but personal invective passes beyond the bounds of acceptability. I would welcome feedback about the idea of flagging certain types of comment as inappropriate. In the meantime, have a great day.
Religious debate really has little overall value on the internet, at least in the way it is usually done. Actions speak louder than words, but with the total anonymity on the internet, words are all there is, and the only words people tend to see here are those they want to hear, or see. I doubt many people turn to Jesus or go a different path just because of a forum post on a comic about Santa. Sure, trading ideas is usually nice, but these debates never really result in such.
However, while I don’t mean to insult anyone, I have to question how much free time people who leave “debate bait” on these comics have. It’s rather sad that people would rather spend time trying to start an argument with random strangers rather than do something more productive.
Yukoner – I agree in principal, but disagree in execution. “Flagging” is a subjective call, as is “offensive.” Perhaps the solution lies in encouraging all to ignore those posts that get under your skin – if the post makes you angry or hits a nerve, don’t respond. I believe the solution also lies in knowing that once one attacks the person, the argument is conceded. Additionally, it may be useful to point out objectionable posts – if you see something you don’t like, don’t “flag” it, but do let them know you don’t like how they say what they have to say.
As unacceptable as an “insulting” post may be, the greater insult, in my mind, is censorship. We all have different sensitivities; while there are some things that are patently offensive, we can not say with certitude what should be objectionable. Unfortunately, we have to put up with the “objectionable” post so that the “approvable” post can be made.
“I disagre with what you say, but I defend to my death your right to say it.” Patrick Henry
I never really understood why religion ends up being so limited by us anyway. Why can God and doubt and faith and science not get along?
Let it be a lifelong journey towards enlightenment. Doubt is a powerful tool in the seeking of truth. And as for science in God haters… the more I understand about the universe, the more impossible it is to believe that there’s no greater organizing force.
Evolution is beautiful! Have you never studied it closely? What an amazing, resilient, tenacious thing life is. Take a look at it even on the microbial level. Look at the drive for small life to not only survive, but to become more complex! How absurd. How counterintuitive, in a universe that slowly cools itself towards entropy. What is driving life itself to fight itself upwards against the stream?
Assuming that you’re Christian, and not a freelance agnostic like me, why cannot an omnicient, omnipotent being have done something for life other than wave his magic wand, figuratively speaking?
Personally, I like to promote atheism not because I think I’m going to change anyone’s mind (if the absurd parts of the bible don’t do that by itself, nothing will), it’s to generally promote a world environment that it’s okay to be an atheist. The old generation is set in its ways, but each new generation thinks for itself. It’s very difficult to overcome religion when it seems like “everyone” believes. Well, everyone doesn’t believe, and in fact, a LOT of people don’t (some estimates are as high as 20%, depending on how the question is phrased). But religious people are notoriously bigoted against non-believers, so to get by in this world, you have to pretend to believe (or at least not rock the boat).
It’s all about saving the next generation, not trying to change the ones that are already gone.
It’s okay to be an atheist. You are far from alone. And yes, it’s okay to celebrate Christmas as a traditional winter holiday. :)
And I believe this is entirely appropriate to discuss within a strip about a boy and his imaginary friend. ;D
All that religionists require is that Atheists keep their mouths shut, which is as far as they can go in our secular society since they are no longer allowed to kill us heretics. Good luck with that.
I have no real problem with athiesm per se. Truth be told, I probably skirt it given that I am currently undecided whether the organizational force that perpetuates life in the universe is sentient. It may be, like gravity, just some unexplored law that says, become living!
But if you believe in absolutely nothing, no overriding force, then the probability that life evolved on earth to our level starts looking like the odds of winning Powerball from now until the end of time. And if there is nothing, and earth is the cosmic fluke, then the chances are extremely good that we are alone in the universe. So if there is no other life, and we’re alone and a fluke, then what is the point of intelligence? And by way of that reasoning, the point of life? The point of existence?
I always did wonder how a true athiest makes peace with those questions. I’m interested in your insight :)
GtL, your question is the result of inductive logic. Certainly the chance of intelligent life arising spontaneously is very, very remote. By comparison, the chances of winning the powerball is ‘a lead pipe cinch’. Yet the powerball is won several times a year. (I don’t play it, so I don’t know how often).
Currently estimates indicate that there are 200-400 billion stars in our galaxy, and perhaps as many as 500 billion galaxies in the universe. This yields an estimated 200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars in the universe. Truly, those are astronomical odds that intelligent life must exist SOMEWHERE. And of course, Earth happened to be one of the planets that won this cosmic jackpot. After all, if there wasn’t intelligent life here, the question couldn’t be asked.
GuntotingLiberal, those are all good questions. The laws of physics, which stem from the nature of matter, are the “overriding force” in the universe. If you’re interested in a good book on the subject of why evolution to such a complex level isn’t as unlikely as you might think, read The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins. The point of intelligence is the improved ability for the human race to survive. That doesn’t imply a higher power to me. It underscores the power of natural selection. Asking the point of life and existence kind of pre-supposes the existence of a god, doesn’t it? Life and existence are the point in and of themselves. Live your life in a way that’s appropriate for social beings with the ability to reason. Don’t really need religion for that.
No one can sufficiently answer every question about how the universe and life came into existence. We just don’t have the knowledge yet. But personally, I prefer to believe that there’s a logical explanation rather than falling back on the idea that some cosmic being created it. How did god come into existence then? Who created god? And if you can believe god “just is” why can’t that be true of the universe and life?
Mmm, yes. PlainBill I agree and disagree… You’re right, the odds are pretty good that life would exist. But intelligent life? Powerball number one, that somehow inanimate muck turned into living primordial slime. That it eventually became us by chaos is the statistical mind boggler. It is true that an infinite number of monkeys on an infinite number of typwriters, etc. But matter in the universe is not infinite, and then the odds of it happening twice are even more unlikely. Three times would be statistically impossible. And then Star Trek could never happen :( Hehe.
Well here goes, I’ve been reading C&H for a while now (my absolute fav comic) and have enjoyed reading the comments. It has amazed me that such an innocent cartoon can spark such a deep conversation. I consider myself a Christian, not a “Baptist”, not a “Catholic”, not a “Mormon”, etc… a Christian, I believe in God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, and Santa!! That’s me! I don’t feel it is my responsibility to “save” anyone else. Your beliefs are your beliefs. In reading many of the comments over the past several days, I can’t help but recall this story:
An atheist was walking through the woods one day in Alaska admiring all that evolution had created.
“What majestic trees!
What a powerful river!
What beautiful animals!” he said to himself.
As he walked alongside the river he heard a rustling in the bushes behind him. Turning to look, he saw a 13 foot Kodiak bear beginning to charge toward him. He ran as fast as he could down the path. He looked over his shoulder and saw that the bear was rapidly closing on him. Somehow he ran even faster, so scared that tears came to his eyes. He looked again and the bear was even closer. His heart pounding in his chest he tried to run even faster yet. But alas, he tripped and fell to the ground. As he rolled over to pick himself up he saw the bear reaching for him with his left paw and raising his right paw to deliver a killing blow.
“OH MY GOD!” he pleadingly screamed.
Time stopped.
The bear froze.
The forest was silent.
Even the powerful river stopped flowing.
A brilliant light shone upon the man and a thunderous voice came from all around,
“YOU DENY MY EXISTENCE FOR ALL THESE YEARS. YOU TEACH OTHERS THAT I DON’T EXIST. YOU EVEN CREDIT CREATION TO SOME COSMIC ACCIDENT. DO YOU EXPECT ME TO HELP YOU OUT OF THIS PREDICAMENT? AM I TO COUNT YOU AS A BELIEVER? ”
Difficult as it was, the atheist looked directly into the light and said, “It would be hypocritical to ask to be a Christian after all these years and under these circumstances but perhaps you could make the bear a Christian? ”
“VERY WELL” said the voice.
The light went out.
The river ran.
The sounds of the forest resumed.
The huge bear dropped down on his knees, brought both paws together, bowed and spoke…………
“Lord, thank you for this food which I am about to receive.”
Yukoner, I got caught up in this yesterday, but not today! I am here to enjoy Calvin & Hobbes and all the other great strips! I come here to laugh or smile, not to get angry! Let’s all give it a rest, huh? As I said yesterday, there are other websites to go to if you want to debate!
Primacyofreason you are correct. I should be more clear though on my personal view that when I say God I don’t mean an entity that is necessarily intelligent, sentient, or aware of us. It could just as easily be called the Godlaw. Some rule of the universe that impacts matter and drives it towards life, the way gravity drives atoms to form an attractional force. That intelligence eventually evolves seems logical from this end, but it’s the beginning part that is a wonder. Nevertheless I’ll check out the book :) It sounds interesting. Good way to start the day, working the brain. And now I must be off!
And more and more religious debate. May I remind every one that this is a COMIC STRIP meant to entertain? Just sit back and enjoy it please. Calvin is so funny with his insults! :-) I love his expression in the last pannell!
@GuntotingLiberal – you ask what the point of life is. And I ask you in return:
Why does life “have” to have a point?
There is no point to life. It simply *is*. We achieved self-awareness through natural forces. It’s an unbelievably wonderous thing! I can fully appreciate how amazing the fact of our existence is.
Unfortunately, the mere beauty of the machine of life is not enough for some people, and they cry to the sky, “There Has To Be More!”
Why does there have to be more? Of course, the reason is that people fear that our short time on existence is all there is. They don’t want to imagine that they will cease to exist. It’s a very odd thing to try and imagine… what becomes of the world if we’re not around to perceive it? When we die, infinite time passes instantly!
So instead of trying to imagine the unimaginable fact of non-existence, it’s much more “fun” to imagine a heavenly wonderland with an all-powerful father that will cure our pain and suffering. That’s certainly a much better fate than nothingness.
But imagination is not reality. There is no point to life. We get our short time on Earth, and then we wink out of existence, and our subjective universe winks out with us.
Religion is like the game we called telephone that we played as kids.
By the time a message is repeated, recopied, re translated, and rewritten over thousands of years it’s original meaning can be radically changed.
Go back to sleep northwoodser, these people are doing a lot of heave thinking here.
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Teaguemj - St. Nicklaus (St. Nick or S. Clause) is based upon a real person. Early Christian origins Saint Nicholas of Myra is the primary inspiration for the Christian figure of Santa Claus. He was a 4th-century Greek Christian bishop of Myra in Lycia, a province of the Byzantine Anatolia, now in Turkey. Nicholas was famous for his generous gifts to the poor, in particular presenting the three impoverished daughters of a pious Christian with dowries so that they would not have to become prostitutes. He was very religious from an early age and devoted his life entirely to Christianity.
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People, yes there is a time and a place for discussions. If you want to enjoy the cartoons, don’t look at the confusing little letters under the pictures. I don’t agree with everything said here, but I like hearing different points of view. I DON’T like listening to whiners, but that’s your right as well (to whine).
Yukoner, you are first person to post the comment about the religion debate on C&H yesterday. Your comments sounded very good.
I really want all of you not to post the comments about the religion. Keep it to yourselves and enjoy reading the comic strips. Yesterday afternoon, I went to check it out and read more comments on each comic strips. I would not read the whole comments (+100 or more) Forget it!
And also, supposedly if one person insults with profanity word, it will change to ‘bleep’ on the post comment. We all have to remember that before we post the comments on the comic strips.
Please, let all of us enjoy reading those comic strips that will make us smile, laugh or whatever.
Keep yourselves in peace and enjoy the views! :-]
By the way, Calvin was afraid his name would be on the bad or naughty list; therefore, he would not get any presents on Christmas Day. Calvin, not to worry, be prepare to be behaved yourself as a good boy! Wink! ;-]
Personally, I think it’s a great thing that C&H can spark an open debate about philosophical questions. Bill Waterson named Calvin and Hobbes after religious and political philosophers for a reason, after all. I think he really did intend for the reader to think and talk about these things.
Person 1: I love the beach, I think it’s beautiful!
Person 2: I love the mountains, I think they are beautiful too!
GOOD :)
Person 1: I love the beach, I think it’s beautiful!
Person 2: The beach blows big time, the mountains are better and you are a doofus if you think otherwise!!
BAD :(
@carmy – your analogy is not quite complete, alas.
Person 1: It’s fine if you like the mountains, but I’m afraid they don’t work for me.
Person 2: No, the mountains are awesome, and if you don’t accept that, we will kill you. Well, killing you is against the law these days, so we’ll just ostracize you, never elect you to public office, and want to lead chants in your children’s classrooms praising the glory of the mountains. And don’t you know that the founding fathers intended this to be a “Mountain Country”?
Note that Religion versus Atheism is NOT mountains versus beaches. Atheism is not a religion, it’s the lack of a belief in supernatural god(s). Just like a lack of belief in Santa Claus is not a religion.
I don’t understand atheism. How can you believe in nothing? How are you made? How was the galaxy shaped? Etc etc etc. And do NOT say big bang. Thats just bs.
Beaches, mountains or religion, atheism. Whatever. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, beliefs, etc. The point is don’t put someone down because of what they know in their mind or heart to be true. It hurts their feelings. In case you hadn’t noticed, several people from BOTH
sides have had their feelings hurt here recently.
Plus4, technically there are few things solid about science. There is still so much for us to learn about the way things work. I can understand why some people are skeptical about evolution in the context of existing as both theory and fact. But I can give another example in science that goes generally unquestioned. Even gravity itself has not been unreservedly classified as a law.
There are some things in science, just as in religion, that require personal study and a small leap of faith to connect the gaps, and nevertheless have room for both science and God or what have you to both have a hand in. For example, having a baby (this may also meet your criteria for life becoming more complex, depending on how you want to break it down). We understand the biology of how a fetus develops as well as we understand anything at this point. We know that there are two small parts that somehow become a working cell that becomes an undeveloped version of a human being. But for all we know of the science, there’s an element of the unknown too. Philosophists for generations have picked apart the idea of consciousness, and we’re really no closer to having a concrete idea of how it works than we are of how it starts. This doesn’t mean that it can’t be (one day) quantified by science at all, nor does the ability for us to do so negate the potential existence of a higher order (be it god or a universal law or whatnot) IMO.
I must say that I’m sorry I got pulled into the religious discussion yesterday. My pastor has told me that you can’t argue theology with non-believers, and I forgot that, being caught up in the moment. It is true that nothing I say on this forum will change anyone’s mind. I will keep my faith close to my sleeve, and pray for atheists, that they may have a change of heart, and the Holy Spirit will do a work within them. God Bless You, Carmy! Nairebis- I prayed for you last night, and will continue to do so. Love Calvin’s face in the last panel!
I’d just like to make one point: There is no definitive logical proof for either atheism or theism; neither belief system is more ‘reasonable’ than the other. Therefore, what we choose to believe, is in either direction, always a leap of faith.
I have no real problem with athiesm per se. Truth be told, I probably skirt it given that I am currently undecided whether the organizational force that perpetuates life in the universe is sentient. It may be, like gravity, just some unexplored law that says, become living!
But if you believe in absolutely nothing, no overriding force, then the probability that life evolved on earth to our level starts looking like the odds of winning Powerball from now until the end of time. And if there is nothing, and earth is the cosmic fluke, then the chances are extremely good that we are alone in the universe. So if there is no other life, and we’re alone and a fluke, then what is the point of intelligence? And by way of that reasoning, the point of life? The point of existence?
I always did wonder how a true athiest makes peace with those questions. I’m interested in your insight :)
That’s an engaging argument there. but I think a true atheist doesn’t operate by trying to make peace with such a question. Atheists are not those who choose to ‘believe’ that god doesn’t exist. Because if that is the case then they are no better than theists who simply chose to believe god. Atheists operate on the principle that everything in this physical universe can be explained by science and those that cannot yet be explained are not magical but are just beyond the scope of current science
GL–who says there is intelligent life on earth? Isn’t the idea of intelligent life really relative? What is intelligent about settling so many of our differences with violence?
This si the kind of pseudo-intelligent argument that muddles a discussion without proving or disproving anything (No Offense). here’s how: ‘Size’ and ‘Speed’ are relative. Something is big only in comparison to a smaller object and a relatively bigger object would be considered as moving at a higher speed only in comparison to a relatively slow moving object. These statements however do not question the existence of concepts of speed and size themselves. Similarly, even if one agreed about the relative nature of intelligence, it doesn’t threaten the concept of intelligence at an existential level. In fact, the application of the principle of relativity to a subject in itself is proof that one is discussing a physical or conceptual entity. Hence, kindly do not state that intelligence is relative and then negate yourself by saying that intelligent life doesn’t exist on earth.
margueritem about 15 years ago
He doubts his doubts….
Yukoner about 15 years ago
I was busy yesterday and did not get to C&H until after there were 100+ posts, mostly about religion. I read all of them and was both amused and appalled. Although I am not sure if this is the appropriate forum for a religious debate, I have no real problem with people expressing their point of view and was impressed with some of the views proffered although I realize that those on either side will never convince those on the other to accept their views, at least not in this forum. However, what I found unacceptable was the significant number of posts on both sides of the issue that gave way to name calling and personal attack. These have clearly no place in this forum. I am therefore suggesting that all of us flag any post that makes a personal attack on another member. That is not to say that we should not be allowed to disagree. Indeed, honest discussion and debate is appropriate but personal invective passes beyond the bounds of acceptability. I would welcome feedback about the idea of flagging certain types of comment as inappropriate. In the meantime, have a great day.
wndrwrthg about 15 years ago
Calvin, you were born under a bad sign.
SaintRCat about 15 years ago
Religious debate really has little overall value on the internet, at least in the way it is usually done. Actions speak louder than words, but with the total anonymity on the internet, words are all there is, and the only words people tend to see here are those they want to hear, or see. I doubt many people turn to Jesus or go a different path just because of a forum post on a comic about Santa. Sure, trading ideas is usually nice, but these debates never really result in such.
However, while I don’t mean to insult anyone, I have to question how much free time people who leave “debate bait” on these comics have. It’s rather sad that people would rather spend time trying to start an argument with random strangers rather than do something more productive.
rentier about 15 years ago
Try to put it in order Calvin!
m_ortal about 15 years ago
I’m watching everyone.
socraties about 15 years ago
Is there any other comic strip that attracts religious discussions than C&H ?
JonD17 about 15 years ago
Yukoner, that sounds like a good plan to me
makin’ note to self to watch out for those eggnog brains…….. SaintRCat, you make a couple of excellent points too.
carmy about 15 years ago
Panel 4 is so perfect. You tell him Hobbes! Yukoner, yesterday was way too crazy. Your comments are right on, no one should get personally attacked.
BirishB about 15 years ago
Yukoner – I agree in principal, but disagree in execution. “Flagging” is a subjective call, as is “offensive.” Perhaps the solution lies in encouraging all to ignore those posts that get under your skin – if the post makes you angry or hits a nerve, don’t respond. I believe the solution also lies in knowing that once one attacks the person, the argument is conceded. Additionally, it may be useful to point out objectionable posts – if you see something you don’t like, don’t “flag” it, but do let them know you don’t like how they say what they have to say.
As unacceptable as an “insulting” post may be, the greater insult, in my mind, is censorship. We all have different sensitivities; while there are some things that are patently offensive, we can not say with certitude what should be objectionable. Unfortunately, we have to put up with the “objectionable” post so that the “approvable” post can be made.
“I disagre with what you say, but I defend to my death your right to say it.” Patrick Henry
BirishB about 15 years ago
I think Calvin might be confusing the “bad” list with the “naughty” list … bad he ain’t, but naughty? Ummmm … yup!
GuntotingLiberal about 15 years ago
I never really understood why religion ends up being so limited by us anyway. Why can God and doubt and faith and science not get along?
Let it be a lifelong journey towards enlightenment. Doubt is a powerful tool in the seeking of truth. And as for science in God haters… the more I understand about the universe, the more impossible it is to believe that there’s no greater organizing force.
Evolution is beautiful! Have you never studied it closely? What an amazing, resilient, tenacious thing life is. Take a look at it even on the microbial level. Look at the drive for small life to not only survive, but to become more complex! How absurd. How counterintuitive, in a universe that slowly cools itself towards entropy. What is driving life itself to fight itself upwards against the stream?
Assuming that you’re Christian, and not a freelance agnostic like me, why cannot an omnicient, omnipotent being have done something for life other than wave his magic wand, figuratively speaking?
Nairebis about 15 years ago
Personally, I like to promote atheism not because I think I’m going to change anyone’s mind (if the absurd parts of the bible don’t do that by itself, nothing will), it’s to generally promote a world environment that it’s okay to be an atheist. The old generation is set in its ways, but each new generation thinks for itself. It’s very difficult to overcome religion when it seems like “everyone” believes. Well, everyone doesn’t believe, and in fact, a LOT of people don’t (some estimates are as high as 20%, depending on how the question is phrased). But religious people are notoriously bigoted against non-believers, so to get by in this world, you have to pretend to believe (or at least not rock the boat).
It’s all about saving the next generation, not trying to change the ones that are already gone.
It’s okay to be an atheist. You are far from alone. And yes, it’s okay to celebrate Christmas as a traditional winter holiday. :)
And I believe this is entirely appropriate to discuss within a strip about a boy and his imaginary friend. ;D
kiMoi about 15 years ago
Gosh Hobbes, what if I don’t go to heaven when I die because I doubted the existence of God?
Don’t worry Calvin. I think you’ll be alright.
iknowtruthismine about 15 years ago
All that religionists require is that Atheists keep their mouths shut, which is as far as they can go in our secular society since they are no longer allowed to kill us heretics. Good luck with that.
GuntotingLiberal about 15 years ago
I have no real problem with athiesm per se. Truth be told, I probably skirt it given that I am currently undecided whether the organizational force that perpetuates life in the universe is sentient. It may be, like gravity, just some unexplored law that says, become living!
But if you believe in absolutely nothing, no overriding force, then the probability that life evolved on earth to our level starts looking like the odds of winning Powerball from now until the end of time. And if there is nothing, and earth is the cosmic fluke, then the chances are extremely good that we are alone in the universe. So if there is no other life, and we’re alone and a fluke, then what is the point of intelligence? And by way of that reasoning, the point of life? The point of existence?
I always did wonder how a true athiest makes peace with those questions. I’m interested in your insight :)
cleokaya about 15 years ago
Hobbes is about to flag Calvin for the insult. Santa is sure to take note.
PlainBill about 15 years ago
GtL, your question is the result of inductive logic. Certainly the chance of intelligent life arising spontaneously is very, very remote. By comparison, the chances of winning the powerball is ‘a lead pipe cinch’. Yet the powerball is won several times a year. (I don’t play it, so I don’t know how often).
Currently estimates indicate that there are 200-400 billion stars in our galaxy, and perhaps as many as 500 billion galaxies in the universe. This yields an estimated 200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars in the universe. Truly, those are astronomical odds that intelligent life must exist SOMEWHERE. And of course, Earth happened to be one of the planets that won this cosmic jackpot. After all, if there wasn’t intelligent life here, the question couldn’t be asked.
primacyofreason about 15 years ago
GuntotingLiberal, those are all good questions. The laws of physics, which stem from the nature of matter, are the “overriding force” in the universe. If you’re interested in a good book on the subject of why evolution to such a complex level isn’t as unlikely as you might think, read The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins. The point of intelligence is the improved ability for the human race to survive. That doesn’t imply a higher power to me. It underscores the power of natural selection. Asking the point of life and existence kind of pre-supposes the existence of a god, doesn’t it? Life and existence are the point in and of themselves. Live your life in a way that’s appropriate for social beings with the ability to reason. Don’t really need religion for that.
No one can sufficiently answer every question about how the universe and life came into existence. We just don’t have the knowledge yet. But personally, I prefer to believe that there’s a logical explanation rather than falling back on the idea that some cosmic being created it. How did god come into existence then? Who created god? And if you can believe god “just is” why can’t that be true of the universe and life?
Lampasas about 15 years ago
Great point Yukoner. Unfortunately as we can see it’s begun.
GuntotingLiberal about 15 years ago
Mmm, yes. PlainBill I agree and disagree… You’re right, the odds are pretty good that life would exist. But intelligent life? Powerball number one, that somehow inanimate muck turned into living primordial slime. That it eventually became us by chaos is the statistical mind boggler. It is true that an infinite number of monkeys on an infinite number of typwriters, etc. But matter in the universe is not infinite, and then the odds of it happening twice are even more unlikely. Three times would be statistically impossible. And then Star Trek could never happen :( Hehe.
bp61 about 15 years ago
Well here goes, I’ve been reading C&H for a while now (my absolute fav comic) and have enjoyed reading the comments. It has amazed me that such an innocent cartoon can spark such a deep conversation. I consider myself a Christian, not a “Baptist”, not a “Catholic”, not a “Mormon”, etc… a Christian, I believe in God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, and Santa!! That’s me! I don’t feel it is my responsibility to “save” anyone else. Your beliefs are your beliefs. In reading many of the comments over the past several days, I can’t help but recall this story: An atheist was walking through the woods one day in Alaska admiring all that evolution had created.
“What majestic trees! What a powerful river! What beautiful animals!” he said to himself. As he walked alongside the river he heard a rustling in the bushes behind him. Turning to look, he saw a 13 foot Kodiak bear beginning to charge toward him. He ran as fast as he could down the path. He looked over his shoulder and saw that the bear was rapidly closing on him. Somehow he ran even faster, so scared that tears came to his eyes. He looked again and the bear was even closer. His heart pounding in his chest he tried to run even faster yet. But alas, he tripped and fell to the ground. As he rolled over to pick himself up he saw the bear reaching for him with his left paw and raising his right paw to deliver a killing blow. “OH MY GOD!” he pleadingly screamed. Time stopped. The bear froze. The forest was silent. Even the powerful river stopped flowing.
A brilliant light shone upon the man and a thunderous voice came from all around, “YOU DENY MY EXISTENCE FOR ALL THESE YEARS. YOU TEACH OTHERS THAT I DON’T EXIST. YOU EVEN CREDIT CREATION TO SOME COSMIC ACCIDENT. DO YOU EXPECT ME TO HELP YOU OUT OF THIS PREDICAMENT? AM I TO COUNT YOU AS A BELIEVER? ”
Difficult as it was, the atheist looked directly into the light and said, “It would be hypocritical to ask to be a Christian after all these years and under these circumstances but perhaps you could make the bear a Christian? ” “VERY WELL” said the voice.
The light went out. The river ran. The sounds of the forest resumed.
The huge bear dropped down on his knees, brought both paws together, bowed and spoke………… “Lord, thank you for this food which I am about to receive.”
Dry and Dusty Premium Member about 15 years ago
Yukoner, I got caught up in this yesterday, but not today! I am here to enjoy Calvin & Hobbes and all the other great strips! I come here to laugh or smile, not to get angry! Let’s all give it a rest, huh? As I said yesterday, there are other websites to go to if you want to debate!
GuntotingLiberal about 15 years ago
Primacyofreason you are correct. I should be more clear though on my personal view that when I say God I don’t mean an entity that is necessarily intelligent, sentient, or aware of us. It could just as easily be called the Godlaw. Some rule of the universe that impacts matter and drives it towards life, the way gravity drives atoms to form an attractional force. That intelligence eventually evolves seems logical from this end, but it’s the beginning part that is a wonder. Nevertheless I’ll check out the book :) It sounds interesting. Good way to start the day, working the brain. And now I must be off!
redsheri about 15 years ago
And more and more religious debate. May I remind every one that this is a COMIC STRIP meant to entertain? Just sit back and enjoy it please. Calvin is so funny with his insults! :-) I love his expression in the last pannell!
lazygrazer about 15 years ago
When it comes to Santa and/or God, I think we’re doing a far worse job of self-justification than a 6 year old cartoon kid is.
Nairebis about 15 years ago
@GuntotingLiberal – you ask what the point of life is. And I ask you in return:
Why does life “have” to have a point?
There is no point to life. It simply *is*. We achieved self-awareness through natural forces. It’s an unbelievably wonderous thing! I can fully appreciate how amazing the fact of our existence is.
Unfortunately, the mere beauty of the machine of life is not enough for some people, and they cry to the sky, “There Has To Be More!”
Why does there have to be more? Of course, the reason is that people fear that our short time on existence is all there is. They don’t want to imagine that they will cease to exist. It’s a very odd thing to try and imagine… what becomes of the world if we’re not around to perceive it? When we die, infinite time passes instantly!
So instead of trying to imagine the unimaginable fact of non-existence, it’s much more “fun” to imagine a heavenly wonderland with an all-powerful father that will cure our pain and suffering. That’s certainly a much better fate than nothingness.
But imagination is not reality. There is no point to life. We get our short time on Earth, and then we wink out of existence, and our subjective universe winks out with us.
Marderofski about 15 years ago
@doctortoon
Religion is like the game we called telephone that we played as kids. By the time a message is repeated, recopied, re translated, and rewritten over thousands of years it’s original meaning can be radically changed.
Thank you.
teaguemj about 15 years ago
Parents who sign “Santa” instead of “Mom and Dad” give up their spot in this dialogue to an imaginary elf.
Northwoodser about 15 years ago
Here we go again. Bring out the soap boxes so everyone with half a brain can orate. BORING!
Radical-Knight about 15 years ago
Go back to sleep northwoodser, these people are doing a lot of heave thinking here. . Teaguemj - St. Nicklaus (St. Nick or S. Clause) is based upon a real person. Early Christian origins Saint Nicholas of Myra is the primary inspiration for the Christian figure of Santa Claus. He was a 4th-century Greek Christian bishop of Myra in Lycia, a province of the Byzantine Anatolia, now in Turkey. Nicholas was famous for his generous gifts to the poor, in particular presenting the three impoverished daughters of a pious Christian with dowries so that they would not have to become prostitutes. He was very religious from an early age and devoted his life entirely to Christianity. . People, yes there is a time and a place for discussions. If you want to enjoy the cartoons, don’t look at the confusing little letters under the pictures. I don’t agree with everything said here, but I like hearing different points of view. I DON’T like listening to whiners, but that’s your right as well (to whine).
bubbie7 about 15 years ago
bp61-that was a great story-thanks
Wildmustang1262 about 15 years ago
Yukoner, you are first person to post the comment about the religion debate on C&H yesterday. Your comments sounded very good. I really want all of you not to post the comments about the religion. Keep it to yourselves and enjoy reading the comic strips. Yesterday afternoon, I went to check it out and read more comments on each comic strips. I would not read the whole comments (+100 or more) Forget it! And also, supposedly if one person insults with profanity word, it will change to ‘bleep’ on the post comment. We all have to remember that before we post the comments on the comic strips. Please, let all of us enjoy reading those comic strips that will make us smile, laugh or whatever. Keep yourselves in peace and enjoy the views! :-]
By the way, Calvin was afraid his name would be on the bad or naughty list; therefore, he would not get any presents on Christmas Day. Calvin, not to worry, be prepare to be behaved yourself as a good boy! Wink! ;-]
primacyofreason about 15 years ago
Personally, I think it’s a great thing that C&H can spark an open debate about philosophical questions. Bill Waterson named Calvin and Hobbes after religious and political philosophers for a reason, after all. I think he really did intend for the reader to think and talk about these things.
carmy about 15 years ago
Person 1: I love the beach, I think it’s beautiful! Person 2: I love the mountains, I think they are beautiful too! GOOD :)
Person 1: I love the beach, I think it’s beautiful! Person 2: The beach blows big time, the mountains are better and you are a doofus if you think otherwise!! BAD :(
Nairebis about 15 years ago
@carmy – your analogy is not quite complete, alas.
Person 1: It’s fine if you like the mountains, but I’m afraid they don’t work for me.
Person 2: No, the mountains are awesome, and if you don’t accept that, we will kill you. Well, killing you is against the law these days, so we’ll just ostracize you, never elect you to public office, and want to lead chants in your children’s classrooms praising the glory of the mountains. And don’t you know that the founding fathers intended this to be a “Mountain Country”?
Note that Religion versus Atheism is NOT mountains versus beaches. Atheism is not a religion, it’s the lack of a belief in supernatural god(s). Just like a lack of belief in Santa Claus is not a religion.
reader117 about 15 years ago
I don’t understand atheism. How can you believe in nothing? How are you made? How was the galaxy shaped? Etc etc etc. And do NOT say big bang. Thats just bs.
afboi120 about 15 years ago
I love these guys!
carmy about 15 years ago
Beaches, mountains or religion, atheism. Whatever. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, beliefs, etc. The point is don’t put someone down because of what they know in their mind or heart to be true. It hurts their feelings. In case you hadn’t noticed, several people from BOTH sides have had their feelings hurt here recently.
GuntotingLiberal about 15 years ago
Plus4, technically there are few things solid about science. There is still so much for us to learn about the way things work. I can understand why some people are skeptical about evolution in the context of existing as both theory and fact. But I can give another example in science that goes generally unquestioned. Even gravity itself has not been unreservedly classified as a law.
There are some things in science, just as in religion, that require personal study and a small leap of faith to connect the gaps, and nevertheless have room for both science and God or what have you to both have a hand in. For example, having a baby (this may also meet your criteria for life becoming more complex, depending on how you want to break it down). We understand the biology of how a fetus develops as well as we understand anything at this point. We know that there are two small parts that somehow become a working cell that becomes an undeveloped version of a human being. But for all we know of the science, there’s an element of the unknown too. Philosophists for generations have picked apart the idea of consciousness, and we’re really no closer to having a concrete idea of how it works than we are of how it starts. This doesn’t mean that it can’t be (one day) quantified by science at all, nor does the ability for us to do so negate the potential existence of a higher order (be it god or a universal law or whatnot) IMO.
briankblough about 15 years ago
I must say that I’m sorry I got pulled into the religious discussion yesterday. My pastor has told me that you can’t argue theology with non-believers, and I forgot that, being caught up in the moment. It is true that nothing I say on this forum will change anyone’s mind. I will keep my faith close to my sleeve, and pray for atheists, that they may have a change of heart, and the Holy Spirit will do a work within them. God Bless You, Carmy! Nairebis- I prayed for you last night, and will continue to do so. Love Calvin’s face in the last panel!
wndrwrthg about 15 years ago
The one thing that I really cannot stand about the religious, is their “holier than thou” attitude.
green_engineer about 15 years ago
Redskins Fan - your last comment is absolutely right.
Bill Watterson had every intention of stirring this debate. After all, he is portraying his views through little Calvin.
Anyhow, I love the comic and that will never change regardless of the debates. I think that’s at least one thing all us readers have in common!
keabu1 about 15 years ago
I don’t see what’s wrong with any type of debate here. Comics trigger people’s thoughts. You post when you think of it.
Atheists vs. Christians
If the Atheists are right…we die and that’s it. No big deal.
If the Christians are right…who’s going to burn?
Enough on that one.
Samka about 15 years ago
I’d just like to make one point: There is no definitive logical proof for either atheism or theism; neither belief system is more ‘reasonable’ than the other. Therefore, what we choose to believe, is in either direction, always a leap of faith.
The Old Wolf about 15 years ago
It would pay folks to remember that angels fly because they take themselves lightly. At least, that’s what Monty’s last memo said. ;^)
krisch about 15 years ago
GuntotingLiberal says:
I have no real problem with athiesm per se. Truth be told, I probably skirt it given that I am currently undecided whether the organizational force that perpetuates life in the universe is sentient. It may be, like gravity, just some unexplored law that says, become living!
But if you believe in absolutely nothing, no overriding force, then the probability that life evolved on earth to our level starts looking like the odds of winning Powerball from now until the end of time. And if there is nothing, and earth is the cosmic fluke, then the chances are extremely good that we are alone in the universe. So if there is no other life, and we’re alone and a fluke, then what is the point of intelligence? And by way of that reasoning, the point of life? The point of existence?
I always did wonder how a true athiest makes peace with those questions. I’m interested in your insight :)
That’s an engaging argument there. but I think a true atheist doesn’t operate by trying to make peace with such a question. Atheists are not those who choose to ‘believe’ that god doesn’t exist. Because if that is the case then they are no better than theists who simply chose to believe god. Atheists operate on the principle that everything in this physical universe can be explained by science and those that cannot yet be explained are not magical but are just beyond the scope of current science
krisch about 15 years ago
Kingof01 says:
GL–who says there is intelligent life on earth? Isn’t the idea of intelligent life really relative? What is intelligent about settling so many of our differences with violence?
This si the kind of pseudo-intelligent argument that muddles a discussion without proving or disproving anything (No Offense). here’s how: ‘Size’ and ‘Speed’ are relative. Something is big only in comparison to a smaller object and a relatively bigger object would be considered as moving at a higher speed only in comparison to a relatively slow moving object. These statements however do not question the existence of concepts of speed and size themselves. Similarly, even if one agreed about the relative nature of intelligence, it doesn’t threaten the concept of intelligence at an existential level. In fact, the application of the principle of relativity to a subject in itself is proof that one is discussing a physical or conceptual entity. Hence, kindly do not state that intelligence is relative and then negate yourself by saying that intelligent life doesn’t exist on earth.
SlyGuy54 about 15 years ago
Yukoner great idea but don’t encourage any more religious debates.. NO MORE!! PLEASE!!
And Calvin..Santa isn’t going to like the way you talk about him.
LandriSheppard about 15 years ago
I love Hobbes
dsbairdks about 15 years ago
Getting on Santa’s bad list
dsbairdks about 15 years ago
Santa’s Bad List