Tom Toles for October 14, 2013

Sadly, I don’t think they are ready. The elephant may prefer to die, rather than achieve the possible.

When your party is represented by Boehner, I welcome the implosion. I’m tired of the Republicans being part of the problem but still shouting “We’re better than they are because we’re not quite as bad.” The Republican needs a lot of work and this could very well be the wake-up they need to start focusing on ideology, leadership and marketing.

Is anyone applying for a tax rebate, for the days the government isn’t working?

It’s been just over a week now since Obamacare rolled out. It has been such a resounding success that no one is talking about it anymore. The press has gone silent as has the White House and Democrats..A sure sign that it is a complete disaster. I expect in the next few days they will come up with some concocted story about how it is all some ex-felon film maker’s fault it failed by putting a two minute piece on Youtube that slammed it.

Since this is yet another ‘toon on Obamacare, let’s yet again ask the righties to answer these five simple questions to show us exactly why they hate Obamacare, and aren’t in fact just doing what Fox News tells them to do without thinking the specifics through:

1. Why do you want insurance companies to be able to deny coverage for pre-existing conditions?

2. Why is it bad to require insurance companies to spend at least 80% of insurance premiums on actual health care, as opposed to executive salaries and bonuses?

3. Why is it bad for dependents to be able to stay on their parents’ policy until age 26, instead of making them get more expensive care at a younger age?

4. Why do you like lifetime insurance caps?

5. Why is it better to have millions of people uninsured who then use emergency rooms for routine care, costing far more?

If past experience is any indicator, the righties will realize how hypocritical they’ll look if they give honest answers to these questions, and once again run away with their tails between their legs like Ansonia, MStevenson58, onguard, jack75287, Gore Bane, wbr, Harleyquinn, mDavis, coraryan, churchillwasright, Enoki et al.

But we’ll see.

The government shutdown continues apaceBut soon the Tea Party will have to save faceA financial default can never be artyAnd the people now know it’s de fault of de PartyThe people have spoken: blackmail is a crimeA damn dirty shame and a waste of our timeTea Party insanity? Quite clear to seeThey’re all drinking Koolaid, it seems, and not teaAnd now they are trapped, though lacking in thoughtThey’re trying to find a brand-new plot to plotLike Christie, who opted for lap band, not trainerThe Party will blame not themselves, they’ll blame Boehner

Enoki: Those 2,700 pages are mostly loopholes the Republicans demanded on behalf of their corporate owners. No other country in the overdeveloped world has such a corporate-dominated system (invented by the Heritage Foundation and first enacted by Romney in Massachusetts, now opposed by the party that created it). The rest of the world considers a healthy citizenry to be in the national interest and will provide it for all by whatever means they can – the richer ones as a part of government function, the poorer by Doctors Without Borders, missionaries, or whatever is available. Only in the US are lives a commercial commodity.

Uncle Joe (and others) if you all want to die rather than follow the legal program, then by all means. Do yourself in. HOWEVER: You are insisting on taking the rest of us with you only most of us will die first. I won’t say “I can’t believe..” about the continuing outright, extremely absurd lies you keep repeating over and over about this situation. That’s because you are in total DENIAL about what is really going on and that is: 1. The new health care program IS beginning to work. Your shutting down the whole government to stop it isn’t working. 2. The VAST MAJORITY of American’s, even your long time, big money backers have turned on you and are shouting from the rooftops that you are wrong. You are at a 24% approval rating in this country. You are about to lose your backers because you are screwing them, too. If you want to commit suicide no one can stop you. Killing the rest of us just is not going to happen.

“Oh, BTW, no one can currently sign up with a pre-existing condition. They’ve run out of funding for that. That’s one thing that can go wrong.”You seem unaware that the pre-existing condition clause doesn’t kick in until January 1st?http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/09/preexisting-condition-program_n_3894707.html

“I have already answered you twice before.”Sorry, I followed each thread I posted the questions on for at least three days after the last post, and don’t recall seeing your answers.“All those benefits you mention are hugely expensive. Who is going to pay for them?”What’s the alternative? Just let the people did? Republicans love to complain about the so-called “death-squads”, yet seemed determined to block any alternatives. The previous system was spiraling out of control, and single-payer gets blocked by Republicans. So what’s your solution?

“Oh, everyone might also note that Anthony 2816 has posted not a single word in rebuttal to my response to his earlier challenge / post.”Hmm. Lemme run outside and see if I cast a shadow….In the meantime, oh, everyone might also note that Enoki has posted not a single word in rebuttal to my response to his response to my earlier challenge / post.

I know you’re talking to Anthony, but using silly names for conservatives doesn’t make any point. It’s easy enough to point out the ridiculous claims like ‘death panels’ & let the world smile.

“…and have low IQ’s?”No, not more Republicans! (Sorry, Uncle Joe!)

That’s what the Republican government shutdown is doing to our economy.

Enoki: I am not arguing from consensus genitum (the real name of the logical fallacy you imply). but you are arguing from the egocentric view that the whole world is out of step but little Sammy and they better get in step with him or we will invade. 190whatever to one are tough odds to buck, and it takes a real egotist to try.

The minimum deductible argument is certainly worth having. The Bronze plan deductible is actually around $5,000 in most markets, but many people can absorb an even higher deductible & would prefer that in favor of lower premiums.Health insurance deductibles have been rising across the board. There is already an emerging market of mini-clinics rising in stores like CVS & Wal-Mart, as well as urgent care clinics that are more affordable than a full blown ER. Smart people who want to bring down the cost of health care should be looking at that option.http://aaucm.org/about/future/default.aspx

“You were answered. Live and learn.”I wasn’t answered by you. All I learned from you is that you ran away from those questions with your tail between your legs. Such depth is beyond your usual smarmy one-liners.And from Enoki I learned what I already suspected…that corporate profits are put before people’s lives. No one has suggested that adding millions of people to the ranks of the insured will be cheap or easy…but unlike Enoki I still feel it’s a worthwhile endeavor. Romney et al managed it in Massachusetts; despite the Republican’s best efforts I think Obama will manage it for the rest of the country.

“I asked you a simple question, which you avoided”I asked you five simple questions, which you avoided several times. I win.“Maybe you haven’t let it sink in yet, but someone has to pay for them.”We’re already paying for it, through the costly use of emergency rooms for routine care. Tell me, Ansonia, most other countries already have national health plans. If it’s so impossible to do, how come they exist?“This thing is collapsing. It is unsustainable.”Ironically this statement exactly describes our health care delivery system pre-ACA. So what do you think should be done about it? And please don’t give me Enoki’s plan of just letting the poor die off. If not the ACA, what? Single-payer? Oh, wait, the Republicans won’t allow that because of its effect on the insurance corporations.

Oh, by the way, Ansonia, this is the second time on this thread I’ve asked you what you would offer instead of Obamacare for the healthcare crisis, and so far, nothing but silence. You may not want to bring up “avoiding answering” given how much you do just that.

Ansonia has gone off to other threads, apparently abandoning this one.

Thanks for returning.“why even bog us down with a huge bureaucracy”If you can think of some way to have a healthcare system without a bureaucracy, I’ll all ears. The pre-Obamacare system was also a huge bureaucracy, y’know, from insurance companies to Medi-Cal, to Medicare, to Medicaid, to the VA…“It can’t be done.”Canada." “Two plans that are better and cheaper than the ACA.” I’d start by checking that out."Canada. Remember, the so-called Obamacare originally was single-payer, but the Republicans insisted it be removed because of the effect it would have on their insurance company corporate masters.“Get the government out. Our previous healthcare could have been fixed way cheaper way better and way more efficiently than what it has cost us just for constructing the failed website alone.”And just how would you do that without getting the government involved??? Obamacare IS the attempt to fix the previous healthcare system. And it is by default much better than the Republican offerings…because there have been no Republican offerings. The insurance companies won’t let them.“As far as other countries having socialized healthcare, no country has the quality of care that we do.”Try telling that to the millions of people who can’t access all that “quality”.“And waiting times in those countries are months and sometimes years long.”You know, I keep hearing this, but when you actually ask the Canadians and English, it just doesn’t seem to be much of a problem. For example, read this short article: http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/10/17/grand-theft-health-insurance/“BTW, feel free to tell me on another thread when you’ve posted an unanswered question to me. I’m more than happy to come back.”I did…on three threads, actually. Since there’s no personal messaging on there, perhaps you could just check back when you’ve asked (or been asked) questions to see if there’s any follow-up? I usually don’t abandon a thread until it’s been inactive for at least 2 and usually 3 days.

How many people in the United States die each year because they have no health insurance?

45,000

How many people in Canada die each year because they have no health insurance?

Zero.

How many people go bankrupt each year in the United States because of medical expenses?

922,819

How many people go bankrupt each year in Canada because of medical expenses?

Zero.

How many Americans do not have health insurance?

50 million.

How many Canadians do not have health insurance?

Zero.

How many Americans go without medical care because of costs?

115 million.

How many Canadians go without medical care because of costs?

Zero.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/10/17/grand-theft-health-insurance/

“…that Canada’s healthcare plan is unsustainable?”I’ve seen links both ways. But I like their “unsustainable” better than our “unsustainable” for the reasons listed in the comparison above.“I’m against government butting into my healthcare.”I don’t know what your situation is, but before Obamacare I had Kaiser, and after Obamacare, I still have the exact same Kaiser. But you know, you may be surprised how much government is already involved in your health care…or how much higher premiums would be if they weren’t.

" I think that’s Obama’s plan."I don’t understand this. Why would you think Obama wants medical expenses to increase??? Everyday inflation increases medical costs (just like everything else). And Republican “policies” like the sequester and government shutdown push them up even higher. The insurance companies pass this cost onto people like you, with Republican pro-business blessings."I was raised with a good work ethic and expect to be responsible for myself. “I have MD and JD degrees, and my wife has a Pharm.D. degree. We’ll be fine no matter what increases we have to pay to help the less fortunate. I’m an atheist; my wife is a Catholic, so we both don’t mind helping the less fortunate.”Just wondering, is your beautiful avatar a picture of you? Don’t mean to be intrusive, so I’m okay with you not answering."No such luck; I’m just some ugly white guy. My unauthorized avator comes from:http://www.linkedin.com/in/hoangyenBy sheer coincidence, my wife is also Vietnamese, although much better looking than Yen.

“But I think that’s part of the plan too, to get everyone frustrated enough to think single-payer will be better. "While I doubt that is true, I wouldn’t mind if it was. It seems to me that single-payer is the way to go, benefiting everyone but the insurance companies…which is why the Republicans got it pulled out of Obamacare.Kudos to you for your support of the less fortunate. If everyone did that we wouldn’t have a need for things like food stamps and welfare…but they don’t, so we do.Why, yes, my wife is beautiful. The only bad thing is that she doesn’t age like I do. We’re both 55, but people generally assume she’s in her 30s. Makes her look like my daughter when we’re together.

“I’m totally against socialized medicine. I think it just gives everyone inferior health care.”But at least it gives everyone health care.