ConserveGov: it’s not “enhanced interrogation,” it’s torture. And just about everybody who has ever been involved with it has said that it does NOT work, it does not get actionable intelligence, it does not save lives.
So, to recap: the United States tortures people, it holds them for a decade or more without trial or even charges, it uses drones to indiscriminately kill people in countries it is not at war with. Remind me, again, why you think you deserve the moral high ground?
The principle on which this country was founded was that governments and legislatures do not GIVE people their rights, God and/or the laws of Nature DO. Governments can only recognize and respect those rights, or fail to. When a person is in custody, to say “He is too evil to be given rights” is to say “He is too evil to be given justice.” To deny anyone justice because it would be inconvenient to the state for him to have justice sounds like a good definition of the abuse of power. It is a betrayal of the principles that define America. We may still choose to go there at times: but when we do, we should have no illusions about what we are doing. We are betraying ourselves. We do not respect the rights of “bad guys” for their sakes, but for ours. This is precisely what we should be talking about when we talk about “limited government.” The use of torture is the ultimate example of “unlimited government” and should be abhorred by anyone who does not believe in the absolute power of the state.
My image from my generation is planting the Flag on the Moon. That is pride.My image of the current generation is the prisoner in orange, head covered, standing on a chair. That is shame.
Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution, as part of the U.S. Bill of Rights, simply:“Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.”Period. Those who continually lecture us about how we must always remain faithful to the Constittuion, and how we need unyielding obedience to the 2nd Amendment — but at the same time support and argue for “enhanced interrogation” — in any form and for any reason — are liars and hypocrites and must be told so.
If you favor torture by electrocution, as practiced by many of most ferocious dictatorial regimes around the world, then don’t ever post on these boards that you support the US Constitution.
Contradicting prior assertions by many Bush administration officials, the U.S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence’s recent 6,000-page classified report on so-called “enhanced interrogation techniques” concludes that torture did not help the CIA and other intelligence agencies in their pursuit.Sens. John McCain, Carl Levin and Dianne Feinstein went so far as to chastise Sony Pictures for a “grossly inaccurate” and irresponsible misrepresentation of history in Zero Dark Thirty.…National Security Council spokesman Tommy Vietor said the path to tracking down Bin Laden was far more complex than Rodriguez’s explanation.“It took years of collection and analysis from many different sources to develop the case that enabled us to identify this compound, and reach a judgement that bin Laden was likely to be living there,” Vietor said.And Amnesty International’s fact sheet:http://www.amnestyusa.org/pdfs/BinLadenAndTortureFactSheet.pdf
That the US would result to such unredeemable behavior. ANYONE that excuses the Bush administration for this has lost the right to call themselves civilized. One of the greatest humiliations in American history.
The Torture of captives opens the door for torture to be used against our troops who are captured. We should be striving for everyone to uphold the Geneva Convention, not setting an example to the contrary. (Ask Senator McCain what torture consists of.)
The USA would insist on fighting a Just War against any nation that behaved like the USA did over the past decade. I would have expected better morality from McCain.
It slays me that some of my Repub friends are all for denying justice to this guy. These are the same people who want to keep their guns because they can’t trust the government. Well, OK in this case, it SEEMS (but isn’t certain) that it’s pretty open and shut. But how about the next guy the Feds go after, or the tenth, or the thousandth—do they really think NO mistakes will be made, that none of the thousand were spirited away because they were a problem for the government? What it if the Feds showed up on their doorsteps to arrest their kid in a mailbox bombing—would they say to themselves, “Well, my kid must be guilty, cuz they’re never wrong” or would they demand a pretty high standard of justice for their own? It always amazes me how quickly they are ready to lower the standards that make this country what it is, just for perceived safety or convenience.
“Torture requires death, disfigurement, or extreme pain. water boarding does none of these . . . does create extreme anxiety”Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution, as part of the U.S. Bill of Rights, simply:“Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.”Since you oppose the freedoms guaranteed in the Constitution and Bill of Rights, you are unqualified to lecture us about it in the future.
Here’s the bottom line: torturing people might be fun and satisfying, but it does not lead to useful information. Let’s see you cite one time, from any time in history, when torture of an individual has led to any actionable information, such as the location of a ticking bomb. Cite your source, as long as it’s not the Bush administration/Fox News.
onguard said, “Dem Libs are making the case that Coddling mass killers is more important than insuring the safety of Americans.”*What onguard fails miserably in understanding is that not every suspect is guilty. Just because you may think someone is a mass killer doesn’t mean that he/she is. But onguard wants to torture them anyway because he thinks they probably are guilty.*There are people in Gitmo that the gov’t admits are not guilty, but they are still there because the gov’t doesn’t know what to do with them. There have been dozens of people on death row that have been exonerated years later due to DNA evidence that was not available back when they went to trial. And many of them were put away due to eye-witness testimony that turned out to be wrong.*But onguard wants to torture them anyway.
“What should Bail be set at for the individual who killed your entire family? Should it be one cent?”It is not my decision – and certainly not any of the other commentors on GoComics – to determine what constitutes ‘excessive bail’ or ‘cruel and unusual punishment’. It is the courts’ decision.
onguard said, “I have never supported the true torture of anyone.”*No? Really? When you call a US citizen who has not yet been convicted a “mass killer” and use that as justification to not give them Miranda rights, and to subject them “enhanced interogation” prior to them being convicted, that is torture. You may not like the bipartisan definition of torture, but it’s still torture.
“I remember the pictures of American civilians being dragged down streets, hung and beheaded. That’s shame.”actually, I have photos of what I think you’re talking about. they were hung by the neck from a bridge and immolated (burned). I won’t post the pictures here out of respect for the soldiers. now most americans don’t and willfully won’t want to care why our soldiers were on THEIR land making war. but you may want to acknowledge there just might be another side to the story.
You off your meds again? Waterboarding to save lives is HARDLY in the same category of raping for your jollies or theft.If someone kidnaps your child, and has them bound up in a deserted basement and if they do not go back to check up on your child, no one else knows where your child is, and the child WILL starve to death if not found.The kidnapper is caught, and you KNOW without a shadow of a doubt that this IS the kidnapper….and they’re not talking, not telling you where your child is and because it’s been DAYS since the kidnapping you know you have only hours before you know if you don’t find him soon, you won’t find the child alive…..do you think saying pretty please enough times will make the kidnapper will tell you where your child is….or do you do WHATEVER it takes to get the kidnapper to talk….Would you rather have your child back safe and sound, or worry about what you put the kidnapper through to get the necessary information out of them to get the child back?
IF you are tortured, you will say ANYTHING. true or not.Torture is one of the things I thought the USA would never stoop to doing. Shame on whoever though to do this!
We haven’t got to punishment yet. First we have to identify and catch a suspect. Then his guilt or innocence must be determined by a court of law.
Then you have a hearing to determine a suitable punishment.
Running a suspect down and declaring him guilty doesn’t meet the criteria for ‘justice’. Nor does a kangaroo court, rubberstamping any indictment a prosecutor cares to bring.
I have no quarrel with all that. If his guilt can’t be proven, he should be released.
If his guilt can be proven, I hope he will be punished to the fullest extent the law permits.
A lynching may provide a certain kind of satisfaction to some; I would much prefer to have every confidence that the perpetrator was actually caught. Punishing the wrong person leaves the perpetrator loose on the streets to cause more mayhem.
Jesus, Tigger; what world do you live in that the only two possibilities are taking away his (and, by precedent, everyone’s) right to a fair trial and a slap on the wrist!! How about letting this legal system run its course, try and convict him (probably) in a court of law. represented by a lawyer, and letting the court sentence him. He can do life, or face the death penalty—I’m good with any of it AFTER a legal trial with his rights intact. Because if they can “suspend” his rights (he’s an American citizen) they can suspend any of ours. What I was pointing out is that in your rush to take away his rights because YOU are sure of his guilt you weaken our system of justice, and erode rights for all of us.
That whole “ticking time bomb, Jack Bauer” scenario is just so much bullshit—it’s a smokescreen dragged out and coupled with the emotional blackmail of “what if it was your family at risk?”The EXPERTS, the people who’ve done it, for our government and others, say it doesn’t work—sure, you break the suspect, but you get wildly unreliable information—they are at the point where they will tell you ANYTHING, guessing at what you want them to say, just to get it to stop.Seriously, you’ve got to stop watching re-runs of “24.”
ConserveGov almost 11 years ago
Sometimes saying “Please Mr. Terrorist, tell us where the next bomb is” just doesn’t cut it.
Enhanced interrogation was and is very rare, but when needed, it saves lives.
aardvarkseyes almost 11 years ago
ConserveGov: it’s not “enhanced interrogation,” it’s torture. And just about everybody who has ever been involved with it has said that it does NOT work, it does not get actionable intelligence, it does not save lives.
So, to recap: the United States tortures people, it holds them for a decade or more without trial or even charges, it uses drones to indiscriminately kill people in countries it is not at war with. Remind me, again, why you think you deserve the moral high ground?
jnik23260 almost 11 years ago
And here’s our next guest, straight from Boston…
Doughfoot almost 11 years ago
The principle on which this country was founded was that governments and legislatures do not GIVE people their rights, God and/or the laws of Nature DO. Governments can only recognize and respect those rights, or fail to. When a person is in custody, to say “He is too evil to be given rights” is to say “He is too evil to be given justice.” To deny anyone justice because it would be inconvenient to the state for him to have justice sounds like a good definition of the abuse of power. It is a betrayal of the principles that define America. We may still choose to go there at times: but when we do, we should have no illusions about what we are doing. We are betraying ourselves. We do not respect the rights of “bad guys” for their sakes, but for ours. This is precisely what we should be talking about when we talk about “limited government.” The use of torture is the ultimate example of “unlimited government” and should be abhorred by anyone who does not believe in the absolute power of the state.
midas welby almost 11 years ago
Jesus must be very proud of you.
larryrhoades almost 11 years ago
My image from my generation is planting the Flag on the Moon. That is pride.My image of the current generation is the prisoner in orange, head covered, standing on a chair. That is shame.
corzak almost 11 years ago
Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution, as part of the U.S. Bill of Rights, simply:“Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.”Period. Those who continually lecture us about how we must always remain faithful to the Constittuion, and how we need unyielding obedience to the 2nd Amendment — but at the same time support and argue for “enhanced interrogation” — in any form and for any reason — are liars and hypocrites and must be told so.
corzak almost 11 years ago
If you favor torture by electrocution, as practiced by many of most ferocious dictatorial regimes around the world, then don’t ever post on these boards that you support the US Constitution.
Motivemagus almost 11 years ago
Contradicting prior assertions by many Bush administration officials, the U.S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence’s recent 6,000-page classified report on so-called “enhanced interrogation techniques” concludes that torture did not help the CIA and other intelligence agencies in their pursuit.Sens. John McCain, Carl Levin and Dianne Feinstein went so far as to chastise Sony Pictures for a “grossly inaccurate” and irresponsible misrepresentation of history in Zero Dark Thirty.…National Security Council spokesman Tommy Vietor said the path to tracking down Bin Laden was far more complex than Rodriguez’s explanation.“It took years of collection and analysis from many different sources to develop the case that enabled us to identify this compound, and reach a judgement that bin Laden was likely to be living there,” Vietor said.And Amnesty International’s fact sheet:http://www.amnestyusa.org/pdfs/BinLadenAndTortureFactSheet.pdf
Rickapolis almost 11 years ago
That the US would result to such unredeemable behavior. ANYONE that excuses the Bush administration for this has lost the right to call themselves civilized. One of the greatest humiliations in American history.
Justice22 almost 11 years ago
The Torture of captives opens the door for torture to be used against our troops who are captured. We should be striving for everyone to uphold the Geneva Convention, not setting an example to the contrary. (Ask Senator McCain what torture consists of.)
ConserveGov almost 11 years ago
Btw… For those of you who say it doesn’t work, just ask KSM.
Mighty_Mouse almost 11 years ago
The USA would insist on fighting a Just War against any nation that behaved like the USA did over the past decade. I would have expected better morality from McCain.
Mighty_Mouse almost 11 years ago
History will judge that Al Qaeda won the War of 2001-13, because they dragged the USA down to their level, which was their stated objective.
NDeeZ almost 11 years ago
It slays me that some of my Repub friends are all for denying justice to this guy. These are the same people who want to keep their guns because they can’t trust the government. Well, OK in this case, it SEEMS (but isn’t certain) that it’s pretty open and shut. But how about the next guy the Feds go after, or the tenth, or the thousandth—do they really think NO mistakes will be made, that none of the thousand were spirited away because they were a problem for the government? What it if the Feds showed up on their doorsteps to arrest their kid in a mailbox bombing—would they say to themselves, “Well, my kid must be guilty, cuz they’re never wrong” or would they demand a pretty high standard of justice for their own? It always amazes me how quickly they are ready to lower the standards that make this country what it is, just for perceived safety or convenience.
corzak almost 11 years ago
“Torture requires death, disfigurement, or extreme pain. water boarding does none of these . . . does create extreme anxiety”Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution, as part of the U.S. Bill of Rights, simply:“Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.”Since you oppose the freedoms guaranteed in the Constitution and Bill of Rights, you are unqualified to lecture us about it in the future.
jazzmoose almost 11 years ago
Why don’t YOU leave? You hate everything this country stands for. You’d obviously be happier somewhere where anarchy reigns. Just leave.
Bilword almost 11 years ago
the u.s has lost all credibility in morality
krisjackson01 almost 11 years ago
Here’s the bottom line: torturing people might be fun and satisfying, but it does not lead to useful information. Let’s see you cite one time, from any time in history, when torture of an individual has led to any actionable information, such as the location of a ticking bomb. Cite your source, as long as it’s not the Bush administration/Fox News.
Marty Z almost 11 years ago
onguard said, “Dem Libs are making the case that Coddling mass killers is more important than insuring the safety of Americans.”*What onguard fails miserably in understanding is that not every suspect is guilty. Just because you may think someone is a mass killer doesn’t mean that he/she is. But onguard wants to torture them anyway because he thinks they probably are guilty.*There are people in Gitmo that the gov’t admits are not guilty, but they are still there because the gov’t doesn’t know what to do with them. There have been dozens of people on death row that have been exonerated years later due to DNA evidence that was not available back when they went to trial. And many of them were put away due to eye-witness testimony that turned out to be wrong.*But onguard wants to torture them anyway.
lectricdude almost 11 years ago
…high office is reserved for those-without- morals…
corzak almost 11 years ago
“What should Bail be set at for the individual who killed your entire family? Should it be one cent?”It is not my decision – and certainly not any of the other commentors on GoComics – to determine what constitutes ‘excessive bail’ or ‘cruel and unusual punishment’. It is the courts’ decision.
Marty Z almost 11 years ago
onguard said, “I have never supported the true torture of anyone.”*No? Really? When you call a US citizen who has not yet been convicted a “mass killer” and use that as justification to not give them Miranda rights, and to subject them “enhanced interogation” prior to them being convicted, that is torture. You may not like the bipartisan definition of torture, but it’s still torture.
lectricdude almost 11 years ago
…please define “TRUE” torture…
dannysixpack almost 11 years ago
ConserveGov said, about 16 hours ago
“Enhanced interrogation was and is very rare, but when needed, it saves lives.”
CONSERVEGov, I took the liberty of correcting one term in your sentence. It should read like this:
‘LATE TERM ABORTIONS was and is very rare, but when needed, it saves lives.’there, that’s better (: have a nice day.
dannysixpack almost 11 years ago
Ms. Ima said, about 1 hour ago
“I remember the pictures of American civilians being dragged down streets, hung and beheaded. That’s shame.”actually, I have photos of what I think you’re talking about. they were hung by the neck from a bridge and immolated (burned). I won’t post the pictures here out of respect for the soldiers. now most americans don’t and willfully won’t want to care why our soldiers were on THEIR land making war. but you may want to acknowledge there just might be another side to the story.
Don Winchester Premium Member almost 11 years ago
You off your meds again? Waterboarding to save lives is HARDLY in the same category of raping for your jollies or theft.If someone kidnaps your child, and has them bound up in a deserted basement and if they do not go back to check up on your child, no one else knows where your child is, and the child WILL starve to death if not found.The kidnapper is caught, and you KNOW without a shadow of a doubt that this IS the kidnapper….and they’re not talking, not telling you where your child is and because it’s been DAYS since the kidnapping you know you have only hours before you know if you don’t find him soon, you won’t find the child alive…..do you think saying pretty please enough times will make the kidnapper will tell you where your child is….or do you do WHATEVER it takes to get the kidnapper to talk….Would you rather have your child back safe and sound, or worry about what you put the kidnapper through to get the necessary information out of them to get the child back?
pam Miner almost 11 years ago
IF you are tortured, you will say ANYTHING. true or not.Torture is one of the things I thought the USA would never stoop to doing. Shame on whoever though to do this!
Don Winchester Premium Member almost 11 years ago
Rape isn’t used to get information out of people, idiot….
Hawthorne almost 11 years ago
What makes you think that things are any better in Canada?
Hawthorne almost 11 years ago
Right again. Scary, too.
Hawthorne almost 11 years ago
We haven’t got to punishment yet. First we have to identify and catch a suspect. Then his guilt or innocence must be determined by a court of law.
Then you have a hearing to determine a suitable punishment.
Running a suspect down and declaring him guilty doesn’t meet the criteria for ‘justice’. Nor does a kangaroo court, rubberstamping any indictment a prosecutor cares to bring.
I have no quarrel with all that. If his guilt can’t be proven, he should be released.
If his guilt can be proven, I hope he will be punished to the fullest extent the law permits.
A lynching may provide a certain kind of satisfaction to some; I would much prefer to have every confidence that the perpetrator was actually caught. Punishing the wrong person leaves the perpetrator loose on the streets to cause more mayhem.
Hawthorne almost 11 years ago
And … your point ..?
This is what happens when the schools abandon education in favour of indoctrination …
NDeeZ almost 11 years ago
Jesus, Tigger; what world do you live in that the only two possibilities are taking away his (and, by precedent, everyone’s) right to a fair trial and a slap on the wrist!! How about letting this legal system run its course, try and convict him (probably) in a court of law. represented by a lawyer, and letting the court sentence him. He can do life, or face the death penalty—I’m good with any of it AFTER a legal trial with his rights intact. Because if they can “suspend” his rights (he’s an American citizen) they can suspend any of ours. What I was pointing out is that in your rush to take away his rights because YOU are sure of his guilt you weaken our system of justice, and erode rights for all of us.
NDeeZ almost 11 years ago
That whole “ticking time bomb, Jack Bauer” scenario is just so much bullshit—it’s a smokescreen dragged out and coupled with the emotional blackmail of “what if it was your family at risk?”The EXPERTS, the people who’ve done it, for our government and others, say it doesn’t work—sure, you break the suspect, but you get wildly unreliable information—they are at the point where they will tell you ANYTHING, guessing at what you want them to say, just to get it to stop.Seriously, you’ve got to stop watching re-runs of “24.”